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Old 01-06-2013, 07:17 AM   #221
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Another thing that is WAY different w the fishermen is that they are much more intimate w their boats systems that even a gearhead trawlerman.
Gasp, splutter ... be careful how you use that term. A trawlerman is a particular breed of seafarer and using that term to describe a recreational toy boat driver is an insult to generations of real seamen.

Look up the Royal Naval Patrol Service or "Harry Tate's Navy."
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Old 01-06-2013, 08:40 AM   #222
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So I get this email from my son this morning...

"A bowl of Blue Bunny ice cream and the world wide web at my fingertips in the middle of the Bering Sea."

The boat is a 141 foot longliner powered by a single 3512 Cat engine putting out 1200 hp +/-. Vessel is 479 gross tons.

I'm not sure if his buddies are following along waiting to rescue him but...

How big do you think the hawser would have to be to safety tow this boat to port?

How close would two vessels have to get to safety pass this hawser in heavy seas?


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Old 01-06-2013, 08:49 AM   #223
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How close would two vessels have to get to safety pass this hawser in heavy seas?

The length of the towing hawser with a float on the end.
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Old 01-06-2013, 10:26 AM   #224
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If you want a displacement hull go with a well built single engine and fully protected rudder and prop. The boat for twins is the cat hull with fully protected rudder and props. I have had to feel my way around to many shallow harbors and marina to like exposed props and rudders. I like twins but most are just to exposed to cruise new waters. If you pick up a line or hit bottom you are very luck not to take our both props. Twins are fun and I like to run them but don't like to pay for them. Most fisherman are cheap they don't want to spend anything more then needed to get the job done!!!
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Old 01-06-2013, 12:08 PM   #225
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Yes.

You'll see trollers that appear to be out by themselves but they mostly have friends close by.

But Crabbers in SE and northern Alaska most often are out by themselves. Longliners also I'm quite sure.

So I was telling what there was to tell to make my point on the previous post as I saw it but if there are just as many fishermen out there on their own my point is (PI) pointless. I've seen a lot of fishermen in Alaska but I've mostly been interested in their boats and not so much how they fish plus the fact that they don't fish anywhere near the docks where I see them close up. I don't know hard facts here but I'm guessing they fish somewhat close together about 75% of the fleet but that is just a guess and it only includes Alaska and British Columbia Canada. I do think it's connected to the single engine issue but perhaps mechanical intimacy is more of an element here.

Another important fact to mix in to this single engine question is that the trollers and gillnetters are very low buck operations. Most seasons they can just barely scrape together enough money to get their boats running and other fisheries are flooded w the most expensive gear money can buy like the crab fishery in western Alaska.
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Old 01-06-2013, 12:15 PM   #226
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The length of the towing hawser with a float on the end.
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Old 01-06-2013, 12:50 PM   #227
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Very, very good point Eric and one that is never brought up in the "commercial guys don't use twins" argument for the superiority of singles. I would never have thought of it had you not written your post even though I've observed (and we've filmed in Charleston) the camaraderie you speak of, from here to South Carolina to Prince Edward Island to Scotland.

I'm sitting on our boat now as I write this. We're in our slip in Bellingham and it's blowing and raining, the boat's rocking and moving and the waves are bashing against the breakwater 300 feet behind us. I wouldn't want to be out there no matter how many engines we had.

We like to go to Moclips on Washington's Pacific coast during the winter. The weather is crap, the winds are strong and the waves on the beach in front of the funky motel we stay in are big. And offshore the crabbers run back and forth all day and all night pulling and resetting their pots as their hulls appear and disappear in the swells. At night their swaying floodlights are all we see a mile or more off the beach. And there is NEVER just one boat out there. At any one time there are at least two and more often it is three or four that we can see in the stretch of ocean visible from Moclips.

So I think you're right on the money with this. Unlike Joe Cruiser who takes his Nordic Tug up the Inside Passage on his own, or you in Willy coming down the Passage on your own, the commercial fishermen are out their in groups. Six boats, six engines.

Good observation and point.
Thank you very much Marin. That makes me feel extremely good .... perhaps too good. It isn't often that we praise each other like this. Unfortunately we spend MUCH more time putting each other down and trying to make ourselves look more knowledgable or experienced. Perhaps that's why we have so many lurkers and people that usually don't post. Anyway your post is much better than mine that's already got some holes in it and I'm going to try and follow your lead Marin and invite all else to do the same. Sometimes the tomatoes are fly'in so hot and heavy it's hard to see who's getting clobbered. And why should anyone want to clobber anyone else? What's more important here correctness or how we feel about our time and effort spent here. So far it looks like correctness has been the Holly Grail.

Recently Mark, a very nice fellow said that the structure extending from the keel to the bottom of the rudder is a skeg. I promptly told him it's not and said what I thought I knew about skegs and then announced that his skeg was to be called a shoe. Just the facts mammm. It was a put down ... but not intended as such at all. But how could I have told Mark he was wrong and at the same time make him feel .. well .. not bad. First off by not actually saying he was wrong which is pure criticism and perhaps by presenting my "opinion" as a possibility and not a proclamation of fact.

So Marin your post has far more reaching possibilities and probable positive impact than my post. Thanks again.
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Old 01-06-2013, 12:51 PM   #228
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So, commercial fishermen aren't territorial or don't mind sharing their "hot spots"? I've been watching too much "reality" TV.
Fishermen pretty much have to go where the fish are. In coastal waters that confines them to fairly small areas in many cases. On PEI the lobstermen are assigned an area and they can fish only in that area. And each lobsterman or family has "their" spots within that area. But the boats are pretty close together.

Even the open water lobstermen are within "radio distance" of each other.

My friend in Hawaii who owns the longline tuna fleet, all single engine boats, sends the boats out for a month at a time and they range out many hundreds of miles from the islands. He always sends them out in pairs so they can assist each other if necessary.
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Old 01-06-2013, 01:22 PM   #229
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Unfortunately we spend MUCH more time putting each other down and trying to make ourselves look more knowledgable or experienced. Perhaps that's why we have so many lurkers and people that usually don't post. .
Here's one ex lurker that can confirm the above.
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Old 01-06-2013, 02:00 PM   #230
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Here is a photo of my radar showing the troll fishermen near Naha Bay in SE AK. They are fishing in very close proximity, but it is because the 'opening' is in a limited area and there are a lot of trollers who fish that opening. The boats are moving in various directions at 2-3 knots. They have outrigger poles out making each boat 40 to 50 ft wide with four lines in the water to a depth of 20 fathoms. The lines are stainless steel with a 20 to 30 lb weight at the bottom and a lure every fathom. All of these boats are single engine. They are not grouped together to assist one another, but because that is where the fish are. They are competitors and filling the hold with salmon is the only goal.
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Old 01-06-2013, 02:17 PM   #231
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Recently Mark, a very nice fellow said that the structure extending from the keel to the bottom of the rudder is a skeg. I promptly told him it's not and said what I thought I knew about skegs and then announced that his skeg was to be called a shoe. Just the facts mammm. It was a put down ... but not intended as such at all. But how could I have told Mark he was wrong and at the same time make him feel .. well .. not bad. First off by not actually saying he was wrong which is pure criticism and perhaps by presenting my "opinion" as a possibility and not a proclamation of fact.
I had consulted with a dictionary before making that post.

Per Webster's Dictionary (page 815 of the 1970 Seventh New Collegiate version): skeg -- the stern of the keel of a ship near the sternpost; especially that part connecting the keel with the bottom of the rudderpost in a single-screw ship.

Didn't bother responding earlier, but since you brought up the issue again ...

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Old 01-06-2013, 02:22 PM   #232
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I know I'm not going to change anyone's mind but there is only one reason commercial fishermen have one engine....economics....Same reason container ships and tankers have only one engine. It's enough to get the job done.
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Old 01-06-2013, 02:26 PM   #233
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I know I'm not going to change anyone's mind but there is only one reason commercial fishermen have one engine....economics....Same reason container ships and tankers have only one engine. It's enough to get the job done.
Very true. But the fact most fishing boats work within radio sight of other fishing boats if not physical sight means they more often than not have help fairly close should they need it.
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Old 01-06-2013, 02:34 PM   #234
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My friend in Hawaii who owns the longline tuna fleet, all single engine boats, sends the boats out for a month at a time and they range out many hundreds of miles from the islands. He always sends them out in pairs so they can assist each other if necessary.
More recreational boaters should consider having a "buddy-boat" to accompany them, particularly in dangerous or isolated waters. There will be two, three, or four engines available.
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Old 01-06-2013, 02:41 PM   #235
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You're right, those commercial anglers are not alone.

When I worked as an air traffic controller in San Diego in the mid-1980's, the commercial tuna fleets would launch small general aviation single-engine (gasp!) aircraft with extended range fuel tanks. These airplanes would fly up to 8 hours over the water on a tuna spotting mission, coordinating fish location with the fleet they worked for. They would employ tactics to deceive the competing fleet airplane and boats.

At Christmas, a huge tub of tuna on ice would appear at the base of the control tower as a thanks for the help throughout the year.
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Old 01-06-2013, 03:17 PM   #236
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When in no mans land I usually don't worry about the engines to much. I worry about accidents and other failures more so. Having an extra boat around is priceless.
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Old 01-06-2013, 03:48 PM   #237
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Mark I looked it up and you're absolutely correct. It's amazing. I thought I knew without any doubt what a skeg was and all I knew was what I've heard others calling it. I was actually corrected by others a long time ago and assumed they knew what they were talking about as most others were calling the skeg a shoe.

I'm truly sorry and will commence calling what I thought was a shoe a skeg. If you had PMed my about it I would have posted an apology to be sure as it to some degree reflected on your status here and I clearly didn't know what I was talking about. Perhaps I got "shoe" from the fishermen??
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Old 01-06-2013, 03:54 PM   #238
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If you want a displacement hull go with a well built single engine and fully protected rudder and prop. The boat for twins is the cat hull with fully protected rudder and props. I have had to feel my way around to many shallow harbors and marina to like exposed props and rudders. I like twins but most are just to exposed to cruise new waters. If you pick up a line or hit bottom you are very luck not to take our both props. Twins are fun and I like to run them but don't like to pay for them. Most fisherman are cheap they don't want to spend anything more then needed to get the job done!!!
This is a trawler forum therefore most members here have trawler type boats with full keels regardless of the number of engines. My keel hangs a few inches below my props so touching bottom with my twins is not much different as with your single. I think your fear of taking out both props is not a valid argument here. Now if this were a planing boat forum, you might have something.
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Old 01-06-2013, 04:35 PM   #239
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That's one, no luck needed, and depending on where you are at the time that reason can trump every good reason on the planet to have a single.

But the main reason as far as I'm concerned is that multiple engines are simply a hell of a lot more fun to play with than just one.

For me that's the primary reason why I now have no interest in ever owning or operating a single engine boat. There used to be several single engine boat makes and models I would have loved to have. But now having owned a twin engine boat for 14 years there is no way I could go back to a single. It would for me just be too boring.
chuckle....makes sense to me Marin. I love the concept of the efficiency of the single but i do like the idea of having twins to maneuver in port. Away from the dock the quiet quiet simplicity of a single...not to mention fuel and maintenance efficiency, are awfully enticing. what bothers me is the fact that commercial fishermen prefer singles, so, they are out there every day not like us so they should know what's best. Right?
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Old 01-06-2013, 04:42 PM   #240
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I was actually corrected by others a long time ago and assumed they knew what they were talking about as most others were calling the skeg a shoe.
Not withstanding what the dictionary's definition of a skeg is, I have heard & read countless numbers of people (including boat manufacturers) that refer to the "skeg" as a sand shoe. I believe the use of "sand shoe" more aptly defines what that component's real purpose is.

(Another helpful hint from Jim Venture.
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