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Old 12-23-2014, 08:45 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
Water's great for flowing but nada for lubrication.

The more oil resembles water the less it lubricates.
Eric, since when did slippery become synonymous with thick..? Just sayin'

I've been running Magnatec Diesel in my FL120 (5w40), for 13 years, mainly because of the proven better cold start wear reduction, and she runs like a top, and still I never have to add oil between seasonal changes unless we go on an unusually long run. Modern oils are better. Thickness when you pour them does not mean much in my book.

I agree with…
Originally Posted by kchace


"Anything that can help get the oil up to pressure more quickly and through the various galleries to the bearings is going to be helpful to longevity.
Ken"

Add to that having as much oil stick around on the metal parts, and that's what the modern oils do also.
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Old 12-24-2014, 08:05 AM   #82
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>and still I never have to add oil between seasonal changes unless we go on an unusually long run<.

Oil is eaten , used by every engine , as some must be left on the cylinder walls by the scraper ring or the engine would seize.

The combustion blow by frequently matches the oil consumption , so folks think there is no or low oil use.

Then a long trip comes and the oil is finally warm enough , long enough to evaporate the blow by that has collected .

This is why the oil consumption seems to change after a good days run.
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Old 12-24-2014, 10:21 AM   #83
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Old 01-11-2015, 10:25 PM   #84
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In previous TF oil/lube discussions, regarding engine internals, I have mentioned that I have my gasoline engines set up so I can bring oil pressure up at first by just using the starter motor. Then I let my engines start, knowing that bearing journals have been "pre lubed" prior to combustion pressures being applied.

Some on TF agreed with my technique, others did not.

I’m confident that extra starter use costs or replacement efforts are minimal compared to outcomes of bearing misuse by starting a long duration cold engine without first performing an electric starter activated bearing surface pre lube. BTW: In all my decades, during most of which I’ve used this pre lube technique, I can probably count on one hand the number of starters I’ve needed to replace.

I also pour in 4 oz of ZDDP zinc additive for every classic engine oil change and another 4 oz half way between changes (NOT to be used with catalytic converter systems). Zinc is a great barrier coating that stays on bearings as well as other internal surfaces even when engine has been left idle for many months. It also is great barrier coating for cam lobes working with flat tapped lifters.

In boats and car and truck… I have had six classic gasoline engines during the last few years. Still have four… sold a nice twin screw Uniflite.

We do not use ZDDP in our two catalytic converter vehicles with roller bearing lifters.

Happy Engine-Lube Daze! - Art
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Old 01-11-2015, 11:00 PM   #85
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I agree Art,
But I suspect cranking on a diesel should be limited to 10 second bursts w about a minute between cranking. Not many of us carry a spare starter motor aboard or want to change same on the fly. Being careful of the starter motor I think this is a good idea. My engine has glow plugs so I just crank 10 seconds w the glow plugs cold .. wait a minute .. run the glow plugs for 8 seconds and crank to start.
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Old 01-11-2015, 11:09 PM   #86
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Cranking but not starting- Not sure this is a good idea. While loads on bearings are less without firing, the oil pump is often slower to prime AND the relative speeds on the bearings are lower. Oil film builds with speed, so slow is not good. Oil is present on the bearings from last shutdown, not much but it is there. It only takes a hint of oil to protect the surfaces, but some speed is required to build a film.

I'm not saying that cranking to build pressure is a bad idea, just that from an engineer's point of view, it is not conclusive one way or the other.

On an engine that has sat for many months, then it is worth a prime through the oil galleries, but that is done remotely and not with a starter.
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Old 01-11-2015, 11:16 PM   #87
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Ideally, we should run our engines for an hour or more at operational temperature, under load, at least every week.


That's my goal, not always achieved.
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Old 01-11-2015, 11:39 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski in NC View Post
Cranking but not starting- Not sure this is a good idea. While loads on bearings are less without firing, the oil pump is often slower to prime AND the relative speeds on the bearings are lower. Oil film builds with speed, so slow is not good. Oil is present on the bearings from last shutdown, not much but it is there. It only takes a hint of oil to protect the surfaces, but some speed is required to build a film.

I'm not saying that cranking to build pressure is a bad idea, just that from an engineer's point of view, it is not conclusive one way or the other.

On an engine that has sat for many months, then it is worth a prime through the oil galleries, but that is done remotely and not with a starter.
Isn't it true that when oil pressure reaches 30 psi on gauge that oil is then being forced into bearing journals... no matter what is activating the oil pump to attain the 30 psi...starter or otherwise. Also, an Item I did not flesh out in previous post: I only crank for a few (5 to 8) seconds. Depending on which engine and ambient temperature, it may be needed to repeat the crank sequence two to four times until good pressure is seen on gauge for at least a couple seconds.

Tonight I read every post in this thread. Lots of chat about oil types and their superior quality or similarity. A little chat about how to reduce internal surfaces' wear and tear during start-up. A little chat about how to keep bearing surfaces coated when engine is not used for long periods. IMO: Starter actuated pre lube oil pressure helps to protect internal engine surfaces and ZDDP zinc additive provides exceptionally increased barrier coating on all close tolerance metal portions.

Cheers! - Art
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Old 01-12-2015, 12:48 AM   #89
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Some oil pumps are slow to prime running on the starter. So you are increasing the amount of time the bearings are slowly dragging over each other as the pump slowly primes. Hit the start right away, pump primes quickly and residual oil on shells has built into a film even before galleries pressurize. Not good grinding away on the starter while waiting for OP. Bearings are rubbing on each other the whole time.

The good news is that it probably does not hurt in either case. I have never seen a marine engine fail due to bearings in normal use. So both of us are right!!
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Old 01-12-2015, 01:18 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski in NC View Post
Some oil pumps are slow to prime running on the starter. So you are increasing the amount of time the bearings are slowly dragging over each other as the pump slowly primes. Hit the start right away, pump primes quickly and residual oil on shells has built into a film even before galleries pressurize. Not good grinding away on the starter while waiting for OP. Bearings are rubbing on each other the whole time.

The good news is that it probably does not hurt in either case. I have never seen a marine engine fail due to bearings in normal use. So both of us are right!!
Cool!! I agree...

Bingo, Bango, Bongo!... I'm a Headen fer da Congo - - > !!
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Old 01-12-2015, 03:36 AM   #91
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Depending on the configuration of one's wet exhaust system, cranking an engine without starting it could lead to overfilling the wet elbow/muffler with the result being backing up some water into a cylinder or two.

While I don't believe in cranking on the starter to lube a regularly used engine's innards, I also suspect Ski's assessment is correct in that it probably won't hurt anything enough to be the cause of an engine needing an overhaul.

So if one chooses to do this, they should make sure that pumping raw water through the boat's cooling system with no exhaust present to clear the water will not cause any problems.
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Old 01-12-2015, 10:48 AM   #92
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Marin I've cranked a lot during maintenance and suddenly thought "OMG I must have filled the lift muff. Promptly started w/o any signs of over doing it. With my little engine it takes a lot of cranking. With a much bigger engine and a smallish lift muff it may over fill. A high exhaust riser may keep water out of the engine too.
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Old 01-12-2015, 11:00 AM   #93
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Quote:
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Depending on the configuration of one's wet exhaust system, cranking an engine without starting it could lead to overfilling the wet elbow/muffler with the result being backing up some water into a cylinder or two.

While I don't believe in cranking on the starter to lube a regularly used engine's innards, I also suspect Ski's assessment is correct in that it probably won't hurt anything enough to be the cause of an engine needing an overhaul.

So if one chooses to do this, they should make sure that pumping raw water through the boat's cooling system with no exhaust present to clear the water will not cause any problems.
Good points, however...

In reality... there are times when for one reason or another a boat's engine has trouble starting or maybe even simply refuses to start while cranking. For those reasons the amount of crank time may reach 10 X, 20 X or higher comparative to the relatively quick two to four times of 5 to 8 seconds each that attains oil pressure via starter action for pre lube of bearing journals and surfaces. Always best to be sure a boat's wet exhaust is set up to handle lengths of cranking for whatever reason.

Note: Following is history on a high performance 1967 Buick Wildcat classic engine; to which I do as mentioned in my posts above. I use this car/engine in both gentle and not so gentle driving techniques, depends on my mood and road/weather opportunities at hand. Purchased this all power/AC “Luxo-Muscle-Car” in 1998 with 71,321 on her. Original owners purchased her new when they were in their early 70’s. Man, they had balls! – LOL Wife was 101 yrs. when she passed. Car had been in garage for 11 years and basically kept up by her son taking it out a few times per year. When I got my “Cat” she needed, tires and detail/cleaning as well as engine, trany and brake service… then my new-monster was ready ta GO!

Sixteen years of "Sunday Drives" flew by...

Summer 2014 I had a decades accomplished race motor engineer (builds race car engines for "Sears Point Raceway" - 30 minutes from my home) rebuild my 1967 Wildcat 430 cid, 360 hp, 10.5 to 1 compression engine block... at 47 years age, 125,250 miles use... bearings had no bad-surface effects, flat tappet lifters had little to no cupping, cam lobes stood proud. Reason I rebuilt was due to several pistons having oil ring failure and three cracked piston tops. Blow back had become untenable. I had him use the best materials/equipment for rebuild to original specs. He told me that he was impressed with remaining quality of engine internals. And, that in 2014 the metals in the new parts/equipment being installed was much improved compared to 1967.

IMO: Regarding classic engines having no catalytic converter in exhaust... ZDDP zinc does continue coating bearings and flat tapped surfaces with a barrier that limits wear, and, starter actuated pre-lube oil pressure rise does help bearing surfaces at cold starts; especially after long duration shut downs.

Please don't get me wrong. I don't perform a starter actuated pre-lube if motor has only been shut down for hours to even several days. I do it when a motor has been sitting for long period of time.

There are three very important items to use with well built, excellent running engines:

1. Good lubrication products – with additives as deemed correct
2. Good cooling system – with additives as deemed correct
3. Good fuels – with additives as deemed correct

Other than that! - - > Go Baby – GO!!
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Old 01-12-2015, 11:43 AM   #94
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Cranking and not starting is very dangerous if you have a water lift exhaust setup.

You can fill a cylinder or two, which at least will require 2 oil and filter changes , if nothing brakes.
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Old 01-12-2015, 12:00 PM   #95
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Cranking and not starting is very dangerous if you have a water lift exhaust setup.

You can fill a cylinder or two, which at least will require 2 oil and filter changes , if nothing brakes.
Fred - What happens if a person with water lift exhaust needs to crank several times or more because engine is having hard time starting? Isn't there a safety feature built in?
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Old 01-12-2015, 12:24 PM   #96
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Our boat with twin CATs were equipped with "Pre-lubers." These are electric oil pumps that pressurize the lubrication system before the engine starts, and run for several minutes after shutdown to cool things off. They were installed by the original owner. Man I loved those things--made me feel good just hearing them hum.

Then the unthinkable happened. The port engine preluber pump bit the dust. A replacement pump was very, very expensive and I supposed the starboard pump would fail soon too. I spoke to a very experienced CAT technician about the need to replace or abandon the system. He said the pre-lubers would add some lifetime to the engines but it would be so insignificant for a recreational boater that he thought the whole pre-luber concept was not worth the $$. We removed both systems and I gave up worrying about it. Howard
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Old 01-12-2015, 12:51 PM   #97
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Peters post #81.

"Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats
Water's great for flowing but nada for lubrication.

The more oil resembles water the less it lubricates.


Eric, since when did slippery become synonymous with thick..? Just sayin'"

It isn't.
Somebody said or implied in an analogy that viscus oil dosn't get to the bearings fast enough and said water's gonna flow faster and protect the engine sooner. Implying that water will flow faster than oil.
IMO oil does mainly two things. Reduces friction but mainly it keeps the metal parts from touching one another.
The thinner oil is best for friction reduction (as long as metal parts stay apart and don't touch) and the thicker oil is best for keeping metal parts apart.
As we've already discussed the oil pump isn't 100% efficient ... but nearly so. So the time it takes for thicker oil to reach the bearings is almost the same as for thinner oil but the thicker oil stays in the bearings much longer and provides better start up lubrication. IMO.
Thicker oil will probably result in slightly higher oil temps from more friction but I suspect only a to a small degree. But the oil's thicker to begin with.
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Old 01-12-2015, 12:59 PM   #98
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Fred - What happens if a person with water lift exhaust needs to crank several times or more because engine is having hard time starting? Isn't there a safety feature built in?
We close the thru hull for the engine.
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Old 01-12-2015, 01:15 PM   #99
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We close the thru hull for the engine.
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Old 01-13-2015, 06:55 AM   #100
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No safety feature is built in to water lift muffler systems, they rely on a knowledgible owner.

Closing the sea cock works , but a remote valve (cable or electric) to drain the can works even better.


*********

For folks that want a pre lube system but dont want to pay big bucks there is the Po Boy setup.

This is a discarded propane 10 or 20lb bottle , cleaned out and installed with the valve pointing down.

An electric solenoid valve is installed after the propane valve is discarded. .

With the engine running the valve is opened allowing oil to enter , closed and the engine oil level refilled.This initially may take more than one fill.

In operation the valve is opened before engine start to feed oil pressure,

the engine is run for 30 seconds or so and the valve is closed to capture oil and pressure .

Since oil pressure is usually highest just after starting , the pre oil is at max pressure.

Cant get easier or lower cost !!
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