Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 03-07-2009, 09:03 AM   #1
Guru
 
Codger2's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Country: US
Vessel Name: "Sandpiper"
Vessel Model: 2006 42' Ocean Alexander Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,421
Sampson Post & Capstan

I have a sampson post mounted just aft of the windlass. Although it can be used for a multitude of jobs, what was the original intent for this device? The same question applies to the capstan. What was it's original intent?


-- Edited by SeaHorse II at 10:05, 2009-03-07
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	sampson post & windlass.jpg
Views:	431
Size:	78.1 KB
ID:	944   Click image for larger version

Name:	sampson post & anchor.jpg
Views:	439
Size:	168.5 KB
ID:	945  
__________________
Advertisement

Codger2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2009, 10:48 AM   #2
RED
Senior Member
 
RED's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 182
RE: Sampson Post & Capstan

This set up works for a combination chain/nylon rode. Use the sampson post to tie off the nylon rode at anchor, to take the strain off the capstan and windlass. The capstan is used to haul the nylon rode aboard until you get to the chain, which then goes around the windlass gypsy.

You should also use the sampson post to relieve strain on your chain rode at anchor with a chain hook and a short length of line. I like using a bridle over both sides of the bow which tends to dampen swing at anchor. If you don't have secure enough cleats, you could bring a bridle back to the sampson post.

This of course, assume you anchor. Your anchor looks awful pristine! Just Kidding!
__________________

RED is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2009, 01:44 PM   #3
Guru
 
Codger2's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Country: US
Vessel Name: "Sandpiper"
Vessel Model: 2006 42' Ocean Alexander Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,421
Sampson Post & Capstan

Thanks for the input RED! You're right! That is a polished SS anchor my wife bought me for my birthday...my day to day bruce is in the lazarette and looks like this. (Still...not much use is there? <grin>)



-- Edited by SeaHorse II at 14:46, 2009-03-07

-- Edited by SeaHorse II at 14:48, 2009-03-07

-- Edited by SeaHorse II at 14:49, 2009-03-07
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	photo library - 125.jpg
Views:	150
Size:	62.7 KB
ID:	946  
Codger2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2009, 02:51 PM   #4
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Sampson Post & Capstan

A real Sampson post---- and I'm not saying yours isn't--- is VERY securely attached the boat. On wooden boats like fishing schooners and the like, the post went clear down to the keel and was heavily braced. It was one of the strongest structural components on the boat and was used to secure the anchor rode, tow the boat if necessary, act as a tie-off point for installing or removing heavy mast components like gaffs and whatnot, and any other task where a line that was going to be carrying a real heavy load could be tied off.

I have seen boats with "Sampson posts" that were simply fastened to the deck or the back of the pulpit. They looked good but they weren't the kind of thing you would want to apply a heavy load to. So make sure the post on your boat is truly strong and is heavily braced the boat's primary structure before putting any kind of significant load on it. Given the height of the post, a load will exert a lot of leverage on it. As such, if it is just fastened to the deck with bolts and a backing plate, it will probably take less of a load before something breaks than a properly backed deck cleat because of the tremendous leverage a load can put on the post's mounting system.

But a proper Sampson post can be a real benefit on a boat. I wish GBs had them.

The original intent of the capstan was to provide a means of lifting heavy things. Most of the time, the "thing" was the anchor. However I was on board the Cutty Sark in London a number of years ago on one of their "school" days. They had a program where school kids came down and actually worked the ship, as much as one could with it in its permanent drydock. In addition to holystoning the decks, preparing lunch in the galley, hoisting a fore-and-and aft sail and whatnot, one of the activities was loading and unloading the ship. The Cutty Sark (built in 1869) has a large horizontal, manually operated windlass just aft of the raised foredeck. This windlass was used not only to raise the anchor but to operate the lines controling the loading derrick on the ship. The kids would hoist a load of tea crates off the deck, swing it over the side, and lower it to the ground and then bring it back aboard again.

This is a portion of a painting by Christopher Blossom showing lumber schooners in Port Blakely, Washington. To fit the ships into the tiny cove they would drop anchor some distance ahead of their berth and then be hauled backwards to the dock using lines attached to the stern while the anchor chain was paid out from the bow. Some vessels had stern capstans so they could pull themselves in, others had to have the lines hauled in by a winch on the pier. To depart, the ship would pull herself clear of the docks and other ships by hauling herself up to the anchor with the forward capstan. The practice of maneuving a vessel using lines is called "warping." The title of this painting is "Warping In, Port Blakely, 1903."

The second painting by the same artist is called "Heavy Weather." Note the large capstan on the foredeck and the sets of two big Sampson posts flanking it on each side.




-- Edited by Marin at 17:30, 2009-03-07
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	warping in.jpg
Views:	204
Size:	126.3 KB
ID:	947   Click image for larger version

Name:	heavy weather.jpg
Views:	262
Size:	189.5 KB
ID:	948  
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2009, 09:23 PM   #5
RED
Senior Member
 
RED's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 182
RE: Sampson Post & Capstan

I agree, Marin, check how the post is mounted.

The reason I suggest taking the load off the windlass at anchor is that the anchor rode is exerting a torqueing force on the shaft of an electric motor over an extended period.

Another reason for using a bridle is that a chain rode can make quite a racket rollling over in the bow roller when the boat yaws, as I discovered one sleepless night when I convinced myself that I was dragging anchor (me, draped over the bow pulpit in skivvies isn't a pretty sight - fortunately it was a dark night).
RED is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2009, 01:47 AM   #6
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
RE: Sampson Post & Capstan

Quote:
SeaHorse II wrote:

The same question applies to the capstan. What was it's original intent?


I just realized what your question applies to, so I appolgize for the very elementary explanation I gave you earlier.* You were asking about the capstan on your windlass, I assume, not capstans in general.

As RED said, the capstan on a modern windlass is to haul in line.* The wildcat is for the chain, obviously.* Your vertical windlass is set up to haul in a combination rode in the manner RED described.* On horizontal windlasses like the Lofrans Tigres on our boat, the wildcat is on one side and the line gypsy on the other.* Since we, like most boaters in the PNW use an all-chain rode, the windlass is mounted to put the wildcat in line with the pulpit rollers.* The only thing we use the line gypsy for is to pull in the anchor trip line if we need to back the anchor out.* When we do this, the trip line is fed through the port bow hawse and up to the line gypsy.



*
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	tigres.jpg
Views:	129
Size:	136.9 KB
ID:	949  
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2009, 06:38 AM   #7
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,534
RE: Sampson Post & Capstan

A Capstan is very useful at most pulling tasks.

It can pull the boat alongside or move it on a dock with minimum hassle.

The all chain fellows in coral waters will usually have a chain claw with a thin nylon snubber 20ft 3/8 , or so to stop the boat from fetching hard against the chain.

The snubber is ALWAYS short enough that if dropped overboard it will NOT get in the prop.

All chain anchorers will have a deck chain stopper that actually holds the vessel while anchored.

The capstan only being used to recover the chain and lift it aboard , but NOT break it out from the bottom.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2009, 11:05 AM   #8
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,376
RE: Sampson Post & Capstan

FF - Not all chain rode (few if any) anchorers rely on the chain stopper to hold the boat. Few chain stoppers I've seen match the Sampson post for strength. If a snubber(s) is used and affixed to the Sampson, no pressure will be on the chain above the snubber - it will all be on the Sampson as described in above posts.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2009, 12:22 PM   #9
RED
Senior Member
 
RED's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 182
RE: Sampson Post & Capstan

Marin's picture shows the use of a snubber. I assume, since you can see the end of an eye splice Marin is using it to keep the anchor secure when it is stowed. Notice how the chain is slack. In this case, the cleat on top of the windlass is taking the place of a sampson post.

Marin, I also like to see someone who knows how to make fast to a cleat - just once around with an interlocking half hitch. With the line properly sized to the cleat, I have never had this slip or work loose, and it will not jam either.

This pictue is the mark of a good seaman!
RED is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2009, 01:17 PM   #10
Guru
 
Forkliftt's Avatar
 
City: Biloxi Mississippi
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Patricia Louise II
Vessel Model: 1983 42' Present Sundeck
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,433
RE: Sampson Post & Capstan

I grabbed a couple of quick photo's of our Samson Posts- Looks to be about a foot above the deck and about 3' below- mounting to the floor of the chain lockers. This leverage would be cruicial for strength.Steve
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	dscf5017.jpg
Views:	167
Size:	160.6 KB
ID:	950   Click image for larger version

Name:	dscf5018.jpg
Views:	117
Size:	143.8 KB
ID:	951   Click image for larger version

Name:	dscf5019.jpg
Views:	138
Size:	137.8 KB
ID:	952  
Forkliftt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2009, 01:49 PM   #11
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Sampson Post & Capstan

Quote:
RED wrote:

Marin's picture shows the use of a snubber. I assume, since you can see the end of an eye splice Marin is using it to keep the anchor secure when it is stowed. Notice how the chain is slack. In this case, the cleat on top of the windlass is taking the place of a sampson post.
RED--- The line you see in my photo is our chain stopper. It is used to hold the anchor securely to the pulpit (a Rocna is balanced to deploy so it has to be held back), and to prevent the chain from running out on its own when we are at anchor since we always keep the friction brake on the windlass backed off unless we are actually using the windlass.


When we are at anchor, we use a pair of long 1/2" nylon snubbers attached to a grabber plate (or whatever the correct term is), a stainless plate with a slot in it that holds a link of chain and two shackles in the corners for the snubbers. The bitter end of each snubber is secured to its own bow cleat. So we never put the anchor strain on the windlass, the windlass mount, or the bow pulpit. It is always on the two deck cleats.


But even with this arrangement we still use the short chain stopper line since we let a long loop of chain out between the bow pulpit and the chain grabber plate. This loop hangs down about 8 or 10 feet underwater so if we backed off on the windlass brake without the chain stopper line, all the chain would run out.


We have another line, a length of 5/8" nylon about 15 feet long with a chain hook on it, that we use to set the anchor. When the anchor and chain are deployed I put the chain hook on the chain hanging down from the bow roller, pull the line back through a bow hawse and secure it to one of the deck cleats. We then set the anchor against the heavily-backed-up deck cleat rather than the bow pulpit and windlass. If we're only anchoring for a short while we'll stay on this setting line. If we're staying longer we remve the setting line and deploy the snubber arrangement I described earlier.


These operations are much easier and quicker than they sound, and they are all designed to put the strain of setting the anchor and holding the boat on the strongest components at the bow, which are the two deck cleats. If we had a proper Sampson post, we'd use that instead, but GB didn't see fit to include this very useful item in their design




-- Edited by Marin at 15:04, 2009-03-08
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2009, 02:13 PM   #12
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,723
RE: Sampson Post & Capstan

I've got a samson post mounted to the deck only. I've been thinking about removing it and installing 2 or 3 large cleats with a large common backing plate.*
Red,* If one alighns the gypsy with the bow roller the capstan is going to be WAY off alignment to the roller. Does the capstan work well at such angles? I think I saw a windlass w the capstan and gypsy right next to one another* ..* both on the same side of the windlass but can't seem to find any made that way. In this reguard I think the vertical windlass has a distinct advantage. I would like to hear comment about about this misalighnment.* Marin, I don't think all chain rode is most popular even among trawlers much less*boaters in general in the PNW. Even within the SE Alaska fishing fleet many ( guess about 35% ) have nylon*line visible under the chain on their reel style winch drums. *With these drum winches there is no need for special equpment to handle both chain and line. The drum winch is getting more attractive to me as time goes by. With the drum winch I could use 12 to 14' of heavy chain ( 3/8" for my little boat ) and the rest 5/8" nylon line. That would keep the anchor shank down low and eliminate a lot of unessessary chain ( weight ). The drum winches are aluminum and hence, light.

Eric Henning
30 Willard
Thorne Bay Alaska
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2009, 04:32 PM   #13
RED
Senior Member
 
RED's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 182
RE: Sampson Post & Capstan

Marin; you and I have the same arrangement - that's what I have been calling a bridle. The only difference is I am using a chain hook, as opposed to your plate. On our boat, the lines come aboard through deck cavils (basically a hawsehole with cleat horns on the inside) in the side bulwarks.
The advantage of the bridle, as opposed to a single sampson post, is less swinging at anchor. I think this is less of an issue for you in your GB and Eric's Willard, since you both have a full keel. Our OA has a partial skeg. If the bow starts to fall off, the windward part of the bridle goes slack while the leeward side tensions, thereby bringing the bow back to center.
I agree this system is easy to deploy, and correctly puts strain on the hull instead of the windlass.
Eric, not sure I want to take on a horizontal vs vertical axis debate on this forum! LOL. As with all things boating, there are comprises. The horizontal Lofrans (Like Marin's) is a good, rugged unit and a fairly simple installation, the only deck penetrations are electrical, bolts and hausepipe. Everything is on deck for easy maint access. On the other hand, everything is on deck, exposed to the elements and with some potential shin bangers. The verticle (I have a Maxwell) is more complicated to install - the shaft goes through the deck. The electrical parts are below deck out of the elements, but if you have a problem, you're trying to crawl into the chain locker.
RED is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2009, 10:01 PM   #14
Guru
 
Codger2's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Country: US
Vessel Name: "Sandpiper"
Vessel Model: 2006 42' Ocean Alexander Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,421
RE: Sampson Post & Capstan

I also use a "V" shaped bridle with a chain hook. There is an 18" eye spliced on each end of the bridle. The eyes fit over the sampson post and run through a chock on each side of the boat before spilling over. This has worked great over the years for me and is very quiet! No chain rattling in the roller. (Yes RED, I have had an occaision or two to actually set the hook. <grin>)

Eric's point about the vertical windlass is a good one. My vertical windlass is a MUIR 1200 whose gypsy accepts either chain or line. I have all chain but I am going to change that to 60' of chain and 250' of line. I want to lighten up my bow as much as possible for ocean running. Besides, areas where I'll be anchoring don't require a lot of chain.

Vertical windlass vs. a horizontal....There appears to be more line/chain "purchase" on the vertical's gypsy than on the horizontal. Any comments?

Walt
Codger2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2009, 01:43 PM   #15
Veteran Member
 
CamanoFolks's Avatar
 
City: Bellingham, WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Whimsy
Vessel Model: Camano 31
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 71
RE: Sampson Post & Capstan

Years ago we went the chain claw and two bridle arrangement for anchoring.* Used three strand nylon (3/8") long enough to get some stretch.* Thought the arrangement would keep the bow pointed upwind even though a Krogen sails around a lot.* Sort of worked but what really got my attention was the noise associated with the anchor chain links sliding by the taught anchor bridle as the boat was swinging from side to side.* Kind of like plucking a guitar string that was continually getting out of tune.* As long as we got the towang, twachk, plonk, silence, plonk, twachk, towang etc we knew we were still hooked to the bottom!* Sure made sleep an interesting exercise.*

Now days, we use a single bridle (over the bow pulpit) tied to the rode w/ a rolling hitch.* Works almost as well as two, is mostly silent and is very easy to deploy & retrieve.* On occasion we have run the bridle out one of the forward hause cleats which seems to have some effect on the swing.* It has been suggested to try a line from midships to the rode to limit swing but we haven't felt the need to try that yet.

Experimentation is a good thing as different boats & anchorages with varying wind and current conditions will have a big effect on what works.
CamanoFolks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2009, 06:16 PM   #16
Veteran Member
 
Phuket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 77
RE: Sampson Post & Capstan

Here are a couple of pictures of my samson post which is a pretty old style timber one - concrete is ballast. Also original capstans driven off the front of the main engine via a reduction box and truck differential - I got rid of these though as they made the wheel house floor so high you had to be a midget to stand up and drive the boat, plus I do not plan on doing much net hauling.

Cheers, leon.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	dsc00567 (small).jpg
Views:	126
Size:	78.6 KB
ID:	970   Click image for larger version

Name:	dsc00827 (small).jpg
Views:	126
Size:	63.1 KB
ID:	971   Click image for larger version

Name:	capstan.jpg
Views:	121
Size:	144.8 KB
ID:	972  
Phuket is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2009, 11:45 PM   #17
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Sampson Post & Capstan

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:

Marin, I don't think all chain rode is most popular even among trawlers much less boaters in general in the PNW.
It may not be up in your area but it definitely is in the lower PNW. I have yet to meet a single recreational trawler owner in the ten years we've been doing this kind of boating who uses a combination rode. Not that I've met that many owners, but when we've been in anchorages, for example on our three-week cruise in Desolation Sound last fall, EVERY powerboat we see (except very small ones) uses all-chain rode. Sailboats seem to use combination rodes more often than not, but the trawlers, tugs, and cruisers we've seen have all been all-chain.

This makes sense since more and more boats we see are operating their windlasses from the flying bridge or the pilothouse. So there is no one forward to shift the rode from the line gypsy to the wildcat at the changeover point. All chain means you simply push the button and hold it until the anchor comes up on the pulpit. If there is someone forward on these boats, all they're ever doing is hosing down the chain as it comes in and pulling weed off the anchor after it's on the pulpit.

I don't doubt there are powerboaters out there in this area who use a combination rode. But I've not seen one of them yet.



-- Edited by Marin at 00:47, 2009-03-10
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2009, 12:10 AM   #18
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Sampson Post & Capstan

Quote:
SeaHorse II wrote:

Vertical windlass vs. a horizontal....There appears to be more line/chain "purchase" on the vertical's gypsy than on the horizontal. Any comments?
The installation instructions that came with our Lofrans Tigres state that the windlass must be mounted so that the angle of pull on the chain is 90 degrees or less. In other words the chain can come straight in to the top of the wildcat, or at some angle from below the top of the wildcat, but never at an angle that's higher than the top of the wildcat. Ours is just slightly below the top of the wildcat but not much. So it has a quarter-wrap around the wildcat, as did our original windlass. The Tigres is a very fast windlass, but we've never had a problem with the chain jumping or skipping in the wildcat with the quarter-wrap. Nor did we with the original, albeit much slower windlass.

So I don't think the typical quarter-wrap of a horizontal windlass and the half-wrap of the typical vertical windlass result in any differences in their ability to haul in chain.

As to the purchase of a line around the smooth gypsy drum of a windlass, since you can wrap the line around the drum as many times as you want, I don't believe there is any purchase advantage of a horizontal over a vertical or visa versa.

I don't think there is any real arguement between horizontal vs. vertical because they both have advantages for different boat configurations. The vertical is usually a cleaner installation with a much smaller footprint on deck. It seems to be very popular with sailboaters, for good reason. The horizontal is ideal for bow configurations that put the pulpit some distance above the deck since the horizontal is easily mounted on a block or frame to elevate it to the right height to accept the chain coming off the back of the pulpit.

As ohers have mentioned, maintanance can be easier with a horizontal windlass simply because everything is right there on deck.

But with regards to how well they deploy and retrieve an anchor rode, I don't think there is much difference between a well-designed and well-built vertical windlass and a good horizontal windlass. We use all-chain rode on our boat, and I don't think there would be much difference in chain handling between the two types of windlasses. The GB we used to charter had a vertical windlass built into the back of its pulpit and it deployed and retrieved the boat's all-chain rode just fine.

It may be that one style makes it easier to retrieve a nylon rode than the other, but I've not had any experience with that. The "stacked" vertical configuration like on Seahorse's boat makes a lot of sense if you're going to use a combination rode since the line gypsy and the wildcat are both in line with the pulpit rollers.

If we were to use a combination rode on our boat, we would most likely do what a lot of sailboaters we see do, which is pull in the nylon portion of the rode by hand until we got to the chain. I don't know if the wildcat on the Tigres will also pull in line or if they offer one that does. The offset line gypsy on the Tigres is great for hauling in the anchor trip line but as Eric noted it would put a nylon rode at a very awkward angle for retrieving, plus the rode hawse is on the opposite side of the windlass from the line gypsy.

With all-chain none of this is an issue, but if we wanted to use a combination rode we'd have to do some creative thinking as to the best way to retrieve the nylon portion of the rode.




-- Edited by Marin at 01:19, 2009-03-10
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2009, 12:31 AM   #19
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
RE: Sampson Post & Capstan

Quote:
krogenguy wrote:

Y what really got my attention was the noise associated with the anchor chain links sliding by the taught anchor bridle as the boat was swinging from side to side.
That's one advantage of using the chain plate or whatever it's called.* The plate's width, while not a lot, is sufficient to hold the two snubbers far enough apart that the chain almost never touches them.* Also, becasue we let a long loop of chain down between the pulpit roller and the plate, a loop that hangs far below the plate, the rode going up to the pulpit roller is actually quite far away from the Vee'd out snubbers.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2009, 04:40 AM   #20
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,534
RE: Sampson Post & Capstan

The vertical windlass will have the electrics or hydraulics out of the weather under the deck, weight is lower in the vessel too.

A special gypsy will recover chain as well as rope for the single handers , although the splice is interesting to make.

The vertical is usually easier to lead other lines to , to use as a donky winch.

The horizontal is easier to replace as there is a precise hole for a shaft that may not work with the next unit.

FF
__________________

FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
30 amp to 50/125 amp shore power adapter Woodsong Classifieds 0 09-04-2011 03:27 PM
T&T Rejected my post Doc General Discussion 23 02-03-2011 09:53 PM
First post, and yet another "what boat" post syf350 General Discussion 49 09-20-2010 04:12 AM
Glen-L Marine &quot;Hercules&quot; custom trawler/tug Bob Clinkenbeard Trailerable or Pocket Trawlers 11 10-25-2009 09:21 PM
Date & Time of Post Conrad How To Use The Forum, Site News & Account Concerns 3 10-20-2007 11:01 PM




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012