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Old 03-16-2009, 11:15 AM   #21
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RE: Sampson Post & Capstan

Quote:
FF wrote:

The vertical windlass will have the electrics or hydraulics out of the weather under the deck, weight is lower in the vessel too.
One complaint I've heard from the owner of a sailboat with a vertical windlass is that since the motor and gearbox*are supposedly protected under the deck, the manufacturer(s) don't go the the same degree of protection for*these components as manufacturers of horizontal windlasses where all the components are above deck.* In his case, salt water "splashing" off the chain as it went down into the locker*past the motor of his vertical windlass caused severe corrosion of wiring terminals and other components, and the end result was a*massive short-out of the motor one day.

Granted, all windlasses are not*created equal and I'm sure there*must be*vertical windlasses that would resist this problem.**But in the case of the big no-name horizontal windlass that came on our boat and the Lofrans Tigres we replaced it with, gearbox and motor components are extremely well protected from the weather, water,*spray, etc.*so the potential for the wiring, motor, and gearbox to be put at risk*was not an issue at all.* Same thing with the heavy-duty hydraulic windlasses I've seen on friends' work boats.* The manufacturers knew they were going to be exposed on deck and so designed and built them accordingly.

*

So an under-deck mounting is not necessarily a less trouble prone installation, and an above-deck installation is not necessarily a more trouble-prone installation.
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Old 03-17-2009, 04:39 AM   #22
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Sampson Post & Capstan

Sounds like someone that installs a low buck unit could solve any future problems with a 2 ft hose attached below the chain entrance,.

One of the vertical units advantages that requires a bit of work is the shaft can be extended (simple pipe ) and the power unit mounted fairly low in the bow.

A cheapo could be simply boxed , although a proper chain locker will contain the chain with no water draining/, except at the bottom when the box is flushed with chlorox to kill the mud stench.

A "proper" chain box is tall and skinney , and the chain never gets a chance to pile and tumble , simply stack , ready to run.



-- Edited by FF on Tuesday 17th of March 2009 04:41:33 AM
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Old 03-23-2009, 12:34 PM   #23
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RE: Sampson Post & Capstan

As many of you know, anchoring is not my thing. Heck leaving the dock is not my thing.*(-; *Being a long time member of PMM, *if I posted this they would excommunicate me from the PMM site. *So I am hoping not to get beaten up to badly on this site.* Now do not get me wrong, we now have an anchor bridle only because FF and others on the PMM site 10+ years ago said a bridle should be used.* There is very little information about anchor bridles written and on the internet. Chapmen and other anchor information allude to securing the line/chain with no explanation. **They go into detail about scope, using buoys, weighs, snubbers to reduce the stress tension, but nothing or very little about anchor bridles.


*
I can understand when boats had a capstan/winch that the line had to be cleat off to secure the line to something. **The Eagle has a Samson post mounted right in back of the windless and secured to the same decking/plates/structure.* Many boats today do not have a Samson post, just a windless and deck cleats. So is the idea of a bridle sort of a throw back to the days of a capstan and Samson post the line had to be secured to something, but with to days windless is it necessary?* I mean if I do not use a bridle am I hypocrite and going to boaters hell, and if so I just want to know the reason why? ***


*
The previous owner of the Eagle cruised and mainly anchored. The Eagle has 3 anchors, lines/chain, shackles, but nothing remotely looking like an anchor bridle? The Eagle windless has a cleat mounted on top of the windless housing that has a line secured about 3ft log to the anchor when it is stowed. The few times we have anchor with 3 to 5 times scope, 100 to 150ft, the chain hung straigh down/slack most of the time, as the weight of the chain gave enough*give/slack.* The Eagles windless is strong enough to pull in 90lb anchor and 30 to 50 ft of chain, so it should be strong enough to hold the boat at anchor under most conditions.


*
So, what is the main purpose of a bridle 1) take the stress/stain/load off the windless drum/gear/motor and/or 2) the windless is just not strong enough so the chain/line has to be secured to something else 3) is a bridle only need for certain conditions?*


*
Oh, since many of you**post on the PMM site, I would appreciated it, if this stayed on this site.* Sort of like What happen in sin city stays in sin city.*


*
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Old 03-23-2009, 03:33 PM   #24
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RE: Sampson Post & Capstan

Phil:

Your explanation on the use of a bridle/capstan/windlass is quite good. Especially your last question. Yes, your reasons stated for using a bridle are correct. One of the reasons for using a bridle which you didn't mention is "to eliminate chain rattling over the bow roller all night." That's my biggest reason for using one. I will admit, however, that using the windlass for holding the boat at anchor is not a good idea. It probably would hold most trawlers just fine but that doesn't make it acceptable to most salty sailors.
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Old 03-23-2009, 11:54 PM   #25
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Sampson Post & Capstan

Phil--- The main advantage of a bridle (going back through the port and starboard bow hawses) over a single line snubber is that the bridle will usually reduce, at least to a degree, the hunting or yawing of a boat while at anchor or on a mooring. In terms of function alone, a single-line snubber is as effective as a bridle in providing some shock absorbing with all-chain rode and keeping the chain from rolling back and forth on the bow roller which can make a lot of noise that gets transmitted through the entire boat.

The key to making a snubber work--- bridle or single-line---* is once the anchor is set and the snubber deployed, let a long loop of chain out to hang down between the chain hook or grabber on the snubber and the bow roller. This loop of chain--- we typically let out a loop that hangs six to ten feet below the surface--- helps keep the anchor rode secure in the chain hook or grabber, it helps keep the pull on the anchor at a little lower angle, and the fact that it's totally slack means there is no movement of the chain in the bow roller when the wind or current shifts the boat around.

If you want to read what I think is the best book available on the subject of anchoring and mooring pick up a copy of "The Complete Book of Mooring and Anchoring" by Earl Hinz. Everything we know about anchoring we learned from that book as well as getting advice from friends who have a lot of anchoring experience.

-- Edited by Marin on Monday 23rd of March 2009 11:57:07 PM
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Old 03-25-2009, 04:32 AM   #26
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RE: Sampson Post & Capstan

"The key to making a snubber work--- bridle or single-line--- is once the anchor is set and the snubber deployed, let a long loop of chain out to hang down between the chain hook or grabber on the snubber and the bow roller. This loop of chain--- we typically let out a loop that hangs six to ten feet below the surface--- helps keep the anchor rode secure in the chain hook or grabber, it helps keep the pull on the anchor at a little lower angle, and the fact that it's totally slack means there is no movement of the chain in the bow roller when the wind or current shifts the boat around."


This works but there is even a better way .

On many TT there is a SS bow eye just above the water.

The snubbers should be shakeled into this plate , and be as long as can be done , without the line ending in the prop, should it be lost overboard.

AT least two lines , light and more substantial should be used.

An added advantage is the scope is higher as the boat is held to its ground tackle 5 or more ft lower.

The chain can now ,lubber style, be left on the windlass as the vessel is not secured by the windlass.
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Old 03-25-2009, 10:15 AM   #27
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RE: Sampson Post & Capstan

I've seen what FF describes on many "high end" vessels including Nordhavn. What bothers me about this setup is you are now hoping the builder sized and backed the eye properly.*Further it forces you to do a dinghy inspection of the waterline rope and fittings. Ahh, these better mousetraps never stop coming. I've got it, how about a big solid post up by the windlass?
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Old 03-25-2009, 11:39 AM   #28
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RE: Sampson Post & Capstan

The "snubber (or nylon rode) secured to the bow eye" setup does indeed lower the angle of pull on the anchor and is a great idea. The problem is an operational one. For starters, most boats of the type most of us have don't have the eye. Second is what Sunchaser said--- it's a pain in the ass to deal with. You either have to leave the snubber permanently attached to the eye with the working end brough on board and secured when you're not using it, or you have to go out in the dinghy every time you anchor to set up and retrieve the snubber or attach a nylon rode to the eye.

We're not going to install a strongly secured and backed-up bow eye on our 36-year old GB--- we've got better things to do with the money. And if we had an eye, we wouldn't bother with the hassle of getting the snubber on and off it anyway. And I wouldn't want to leave the snubber permanently attached to the eye.

But there's no question it's a good method IF the bow eye is attached to the boat in such a way that it won't work loose, won't pull out of the stem or crack it, etc. There are people who use this method with great success.
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Old 03-26-2009, 04:33 AM   #29
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Sampson Post & Capstan

" There are people who use this method with great success."

They work from the deck alone with no need for a dink ride.

The secret? a snap shackel instead of a chain claw that falls off easily when not under load.

Simply retrieve the chain and undo the snubber as it comes within EZ reach.

When it starts to blow haul in the 20 ft of chain , unsnap the 3/8 line and after shooting more chain simply hook on the 1/2 inch storm snubber.


Remember the reason to use 20 ft of springy nylon is to get the spring.

Since it takes 15% to 40% of the lines working load to get the nylon to stretch, HEAVY lines defeat the purpose of the drill.

Since the loads are fairly light the bow eye does not have to be a monstrous expensive big deal, most anything rational that will take a couple of tons.

An anchor weight (or series of weights) will soften the chain snatch if there is no suitable bow fitting .A coffee can of lead with a snap shakle is easy to handle.


-- Edited by FF on Thursday 26th of March 2009 04:37:04 AM
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Old 03-26-2009, 10:27 AM   #30
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RE: Sampson Post & Capstan

I note many Nordhavns have removed their "waterline" snubber ropes. Ask them why - "I don't trust it because I can't see it."* Remember we are speaking of very heavy vessels here, not tinker toys. What do the commercial guys do? Rickb?
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Old 03-26-2009, 10:51 AM   #31
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RE: Sampson Post & Capstan

I've looked at a lot of commercial purse seiners and combination boats in our marina and none of them use the bow eye method as none of them have bow eyes.
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Old 03-26-2009, 11:58 AM   #32
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RE: Sampson Post & Capstan

"What do the commercial guys do?"

We use adequate scope and all chain. Some small boats use wire and chain but scope and enough weight to form a catenary to absorb shock is what it is all about. Everything else is an attempt to make up for inadequate ground tackle.
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Old 03-26-2009, 05:10 PM   #33
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RE: Sampson Post & Capstan

True WIlly, but some*have pleasure vessels that approach or exceed the size of "commercial." I'd rather mimic a commercial vessel when it comes to anchoring and ground tackle. The wind blows and the waves wave equal for both.
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Old 03-27-2009, 04:08 AM   #34
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RE: Sampson Post & Capstan

"The wind blows and the waves wave equal for both."

But recreational boats will Chose to anchor out .

Most of the commercials like tugs or tankers anchor to wait for a berth or a similar operation reason.There manned and a watch is kept.

The salvage platforms , and rig anchor boats use totally different gear , for operational reasons.

No question many, if not most rec boats are under sized in the anchoring selection , but it seems to work fine , even in Stoopid situations.

I have seen 12 -20 boats tied up in a raft ( 35 to 50loa) with only a single anchor holding the lot ! When a thunderstorm calls an end boat may drop a second anchor (watch farb size) to stop the swing.

Amazing !!!
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Old 04-08-2009, 11:46 PM   #35
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Sampson Post & Capstan

the problem with half hitches, is getting them lose if there is anything pulling on them! in my youth, fishing on my dad`s troller is se alaska, i was never allowed to use half hitches...my orders were to wrap the line around the cleat one complete time, until it was binding on itself, then a couple of figure eights...if the wind was blowing, 3 figure eights! and i was always told when i asked abt the use of*half hitches, that if we went to mexico for a month, i could add a half hitch! some things one does`nt forget!
another thing...commercial fisherman never use what we call 'yachty talk', or 'salty talk'*in conversations...terms like 'anchor rode', chain rode, gypsy, capstan, anchor windless, and so on. on commercial boats, we had an anchor winch, anchor rope/line,*chain, anchor chain is just 'chain', the pilot house is*refered to as the wheelhouse. the guy that runs the boat is called the 'skipper, and that*thing we usually towed behind us, was called a 'skiff', and so on...when i was in grade school in se alaska, i read all kinds of books abt rescues at sea, coast guard epics abt what they did way out there, salty books abt the sailing ships hundreds of yrs ago, etc, so i learned all the terms! if one were to use term/words like those mentioned, on a commercial boat, i think your name would be changed to 'greenhorn' real quick!' kinda like using the correct words for everything on a sail boat! i have some friends that use all the wrong words just to bug the*nautically correct sailboat guys! i enjoy reading all the letters/problems, and sometimes reply...seems sometimes problems get hashed over so many times, it`s crazy, but entertaining...c**

-- Edited by clyde on Wednesday 8th of April 2009 11:49:52 PM
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Old 04-09-2009, 05:13 AM   #36
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RE: Sampson Post & Capstan

Don't go out on a sailboat until you learn what that "salty talk" like

GYBE HO

means!!

You could end up very DEAD!

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Old 04-09-2009, 11:18 AM   #37
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RE: Sampson Post & Capstan

Hey Willy,
I love your Northhill anchor. I've never been able to find one to buy. I think they were designed specifically for flying boats. I wouldn't be surprised if the designer was given the task to make it lighter than a Danforth. I think it is and also I think it will set quickly and not bury itself. Whats your experience Willy?

Eric Henning
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Old 04-10-2009, 04:08 AM   #38
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RE: Sampson Post & Capstan

So that's what that anchor is called.. I have two of them, one very large which I plan to use as a storm anchor and one small, smaller than the one in Willys photo, for day use.
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Old 04-10-2009, 04:49 AM   #39
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RE: Sampson Post & Capstan

I think they were designed specifically for flying boats.

No Northhil's were cast steel in some versions , and stamped in others.

The flying anchors are all non magnetic SS , to not screw with the boats compass or Auto pilot.

They fold for EZ stowage inside the aircraft.

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Old 04-11-2009, 03:37 PM   #40
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RE: Sampson Post & Capstan

Many fishermen weld or have welded Northill anchors here in Alaska.
I saw an anchor rode storage system the other day I've never seen before. The boat had 2 tall samson posts transversly accros the fore deck about 2 1/2 feet apart. The mostly nylon anchor rode was wraped around the 2 posts. It looked a bit like a mess on the deck and I can imagine it being not too handy at times. Every time the rain stopped it would dry out and that may be some or most of the reason such a system was employed.
Larry,* Whats been your experience w the Northill anchor?

Eric Henning
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