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Old 04-04-2013, 05:56 PM   #81
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Whoaaaa...nellie... let's not confuse things here...

First...those that said cast off and get moving...at least me said that "warming up" in the slip is a myth...nothing about idling....you can start, cast off and by the time you hit open water you can come up to cruise...just not full power.

As to idling...ANY load at the appropriate rpm is OK after an engine is broken in. What's NOT OK is a genset with the governor set to run at 1800 RPM at no load at all hour after hour is what is probably bad for it. A main...once started and starting to warm to a propotional load is fine once past normal breakin periods.
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Old 04-04-2013, 06:29 PM   #82
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I tend to agree about the idling thing, but that's not what's being talked about here, I don't think. The issue is underloading.

Gee whiz, I must be reading the thread title all wrong "Running engine w no load" Maybe it's that w without the slash that is throwing me off?

CP: you seem to not understand the difference between being at idle (or any other speed) with NO load and running in gear at idle speed. I will make this way over simplified: The issue really boils down to the engine moving, but the parts not being up to temp. They are designed to be run at a certain temp, that is, all the parts fit together properly thereby work properly when at the appropriate temperature. That is why it causes needless wear and tear, as well as other issues on the engine to run it cold. Yes, problems arise when you idle it for a long time with NO load once it has reached temp, as eventually temp comes down to an unacceptable level. There is way more to it than that, but first you need to grasp the basics of what all that metal is doing. Have a really good mechanic explain it to you some time.
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Old 04-04-2013, 06:35 PM   #83
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Craig your point is well taken and made many times before. Our engines aren't going to die from idling or even idling quite a lot. No problem as long as the engine is run at about 50% load most of the time and maybe even less as many do here on TF.

But I don't think John Deere's recommendation to minimize idling should be completely discarded either. Lots of idling is not "good" for the engine like lots of sugar isn't good for people but lots of people ingest lots and lots of sugar over long periods of time and they do drop dead prematurely all the time but it's rare for sugar to kill people 30 or 40 years old. Since we don't run our engines close to their upper limits of running time we rarely see the negative effects of idling or underloading unless it gets so severe glazing results.

So for all practical purposes we can, generally, just forget about it.

caltex has got you there Marin. "No load" is no load. But at 1500rpm there is the not totally insignificant load of spinning the engine that fast. To increase rpm more more fuel needs to be injected and more work needs to be done. So the load is small (very small) so I think no load on this thread would be out of gear at any rpm.

But if I was the subject of post # 82 I'd be very offended.
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Old 04-04-2013, 06:40 PM   #84
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Eric, do you understand the difference between running the engine at idle with no load and running it in idle while in gear?
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Old 04-04-2013, 06:58 PM   #85
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I understand the metallurgy and the thermal expansion rates just fine. It's the claims of running under X% load that are not making sense to me. One poster early in this thread was claiming he never saw an engine reach rated temperature without a 65 - 70% load with a thermal imaging camera.

George, you said yourself that your mechanic stated while comming into the marina at 800 rpm the engines would outlive you if ran at that speed constantly. I hardly think 800 rpm represents even thirty percent load on your Detroits. The mechanic analyzing them thought they where fine.

Psneeld I perhaps misremembered your line about the warm up period and I agree with what you wrote above. Whoever would run a genny for hours on end with no load at all has more money than brains in my book.

I suppose what has me confused are those that feel idling, even for a half hour or so is detrimental to engine life. Burns fuel but there is more damage from over loading IMO.
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Old 04-04-2013, 07:09 PM   #86
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Gee whiz, I must be reading the thread title all wrong "Running engine w no load" Maybe it's that w without the slash that is throwing me off?
I went back and looked at the original post and you're absolutely correct. The topic is no load at all although it did not seem to specify no load at idle or no load at any rpm or both.

But more recent posts had gotten into the topic of underloading underway, so I got the impression the thread had wandered off in that direction.
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Old 04-04-2013, 07:29 PM   #87
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cal,
Yes ... in gear there is a steady torsional resistance applied to the crankshaft from the prop and delivered to the crankshaft via drive train.
Out of gear the resistance is relatively smooth frictional resistance and the torsional sharp pulses of resistance from compression and power strokes that comprise the bulk of torsional vibration.

Craig wrote;

"I suppose what has me confused are those that feel idling, even for a half hour or so is detrimental to engine life. Burns fuel but there is more damage from over loading IMO."

Just like refined sugar is detrimental to your life.
I thought it was a pretty good analogy Tom.
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Old 04-04-2013, 09:56 PM   #88
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....
Whoever would run a genny for hours on end with no load at all has more money than brains in my book...
Or forgetful/distracted. My Onan genset manual says run it 5 minutes, no load, before closing down after use, to reduce temp. I use a kitchen timer kept at the helm. With main engines running and operating the boat, I easily forget.
There`s a tip, and an instance to run no load.
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Old 04-04-2013, 11:23 PM   #89
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Can smell the aroma of diesel fuel and exhaust!

And, know that I'm in a pretty much diesel-only thread...

But, I Simply Gotta Ask: For delta, bay, close costal, and even some off shore cruising with a pinch of blue water jaunts... what the heck is the matter with utilizing really good performing gasoline engines??

Gas engines are simple/easy/inexpensive to maintain or repair, clean burning and mostly odor free, reliable, cost effective, and quiet for powering self contained cruiser-boats; trawler design - or otherwise. And, when traveling at hull speed or below good gas engines can be darn economical in using fuel. New, high tech gas engines are getting right in line with diesel engines regarding fuel economy.

Yeah, I know - - > Yada, Yada, Yada... You run risk of blowing sky high from gas fume explosion; but, that simply ain't a gonna happen if the boat is equipped/vented correctly with all gas tanks/lines in good condition and the Captain is carefully looking after what's going on. I will admit - there is a very slight chance some numb-skull fills an area with gasoline fumes and somehow ignition occurrs, then a BOOM will happen. But those things are always averted on a good Captain's boat! At least that's how I see it!

Oh and to dispel another item - - > Carefully maintained, gently used, high quality gas engines can run well for several thousand hours; 4,000 + hrs is not unheard of. And, although gas engines may need replacement anywhere from 2 X to 5 X as often as various diesel makes/models, the cost of gas engine replacement is pennies and the hassle is limited in comparison.

Now, Iím not saying that I wonít again own a boat with diesel and not saying that diesel is overrated, nor am I saying that diesel is not a required power source once a craft gets past a certain length and weight, cause it is! Iím just saying that gasoline engines in small to mid sized (28í to 45í) pleasure cruisers ainít a bad way to go!

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Old 04-04-2013, 11:58 PM   #90
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But, I Simply Gotta Ask: For delta, bay, close costal, and even some off shore cruising with a pinch of blue water jaunts... what the heck is the matter with utilizing really good performing gasoline engines??
It's simple, Art. Gasoline engines are really, really, REALLY boring. Anyone, even my dog, can run a gasoline engine and fix it. They convey no status whatsoever upon the owner. Soccer moms operate gasoline engines. Teenage kids with 0.8 grade point averages operate gas engines. When someone says they have gas engines in their boat, the unspoken questions other boaters immediately have are, "What, you couldn't afford a diesel?" "You afraid of diesels?" "Are you that dumb that you can't figure out how to operate a diesel?" And so on.

To paraphrase the comedian Gallagher, gasoline engines have no Style. They simply aren't cool.

When a boater talking to other boaters on the dock says, "I have a gas boat," you'll notice the other boaters wander off or start talking amongst themselves about the weather or they suddenly remember they have to see a guy about a horse.

A cruising boat with gas engines just isn't a cruising boat. It's a wannabe boat.

Now Bob Tollefson was well aware of this but back in 1936 when he got started diesel engines were big heavy scary things that didn't lend themselves to recreational boats or boat owners very well. And he knew his market didn't want to screw with something they didn't understand. So he used gas engines like many of his contemporaries.

But as diesels became smaller and lighter and less expensive and easier to deal with the boat folks took notice. American Marine put diesels in their then-new line of Grand Banks boats in 1966 and coined the marketing phrase "Dependable Diesel Cruisers." Across the way at Kong & Halverson, they did the same thing with their Island Gypsy line. And on it went.

Gas boats became the toys of the go-fast boys, water skiers, and whatnot. The no-substance crowd, if you will.

And since serious boats (even the newerTollycrafts) soon all sported diesels, it followed that diesel became synonymous with "serious boat." As opposed to Bayliner and Sea Ray runabouts and such.

So you see, Art, there is nothing operationally detrimental about having a cruising boat with gas engines in it. It will go all the places the diesel boats will. But unlike the operators of diesel boats, there is simply no way to operate a gas cruising boat and have anyone take you seriously. Or think you're cool.

You'll just be a guy who had to "settle" for a gas boat because for whatever reason you couldn't swing a diesel boat.

I feel sorry for them, I really do. Sometimes I think there should be one of those worldwide funds, like the Save the Children funds with their tear-jerking informercials, set up to help the unfortunate owners of gas cruising boats. After all, they're just victims, right? It's not their fault they lacked the foresight, the means, and the sense of dignity and class to get a diesel boat. Perhaps they didn't choose gas. Perhaps it was thrust upon them by unfortunate circumstances. A broken home, lousy education, possibly even gang influence could send a youngster down the road to gas and the ultimate humiliation and disgrace he faces later as an adult in a diesel world.

I can only speculate, however. You'd need a whole battery of phychologists to answer your question in something approaching a meaningful way.
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:06 AM   #91
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Marin - You are just too funny!!

Keep your blood pressure in check tonight!

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Old 04-05-2013, 12:45 AM   #92
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Spare a thought for our gas engined boat friends, it may not be their fault.

In inland Australia young men were decanting gasoline (we call it petrol) into small containers and sniffing the fumes to get high. It was addictive, led to brain damage and other nasties. An alternative formulation, marketed as "Opal", was developed and is the only type available there, sniff it all you like,no jollies, no use.
Er, now, what`s gas vs diesel and petrol sniffing got to do with running un/under loaded engines. Not much. Guilty as charged, Your Honor.
Marin`s post was a thing of beauty,and didn`t Art just set the scene.
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Old 04-05-2013, 01:10 AM   #93
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Thread Creep

Maybe the mods could split this off into a new Diesel vs. Gasoline thread. One would hate to miss these gems lost in a "Running engine w no load" thread.
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Old 04-05-2013, 01:26 AM   #94
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I just figured I’d throw a little innocuous “bait” into this “diesel” thread... about the simple truth of gasoline engines easily/affordably powering small to midsized pleasure cruisers. A thread... that is so over-labored with too many trying to prove why load – vs – no-load could/would/should/may/might/ought to ruin diesel engines... or not! Marin bit hook line and sinker! Nice, highly energized story, Marin! My Penn Reel star drag is on. This sport fishen chair feels great!
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Old 04-05-2013, 02:59 AM   #95
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It's simple, Art. Gasoline engines are really, really, REALLY boring. Anyone, even my dog, can run a gasoline engine and fix it. They convey no status whatsoever upon the owner. Soccer moms operate gasoline engines. Teenage kids with 0.8 grade point averages operate gas engines. When someone says they have gas engines in their boat, the unspoken questions other boaters immediately have are, "What, you couldn't afford a diesel?" "You afraid of diesels?" "Are you that dumb that you can't figure out how to operate a diesel?" And so on.

To paraphrase the comedian Gallagher, gasoline engines have no Style. They simply aren't cool.

When a boater talking to other boaters on the dock says, "I have a gas boat," you'll notice the other boaters wander off or start talking amongst themselves about the weather or they suddenly remember they have to see a guy about a horse.

A cruising boat with gas engines just isn't a cruising boat. It's a wannabe boat.

Now Bob Tollefson was well aware of this but back in 1936 when he got started diesel engines were big heavy scary things that didn't lend themselves to recreational boats or boat owners very well. And he knew his market didn't want to screw with something they didn't understand. So he used gas engines like many of his contemporaries.

But as diesels became smaller and lighter and less expensive and easier to deal with the boat folks took notice. American Marine put diesels in their then-new line of Grand Banks boats in 1966 and coined the marketing phrase "Dependable Diesel Cruisers." Across the way at Kong & Halverson, they did the same thing with their Island Gypsy line. And on it went.

Gas boats became the toys of the go-fast boys, water skiers, and whatnot. The no-substance crowd, if you will.

And since serious boats (even the newerTollycrafts) soon all sported diesels, it followed that diesel became synonymous with "serious boat." As opposed to Bayliner and Sea Ray runabouts and such.

So you see, Art, there is nothing operationally detrimental about having a cruising boat with gas engines in it. It will go all the places the diesel boats will. But unlike the operators of diesel boats, there is simply no way to operate a gas cruising boat and have anyone take you seriously. Or think you're cool.

You'll just be a guy who had to "settle" for a gas boat because for whatever reason you couldn't swing a diesel boat.

I feel sorry for them, I really do. Sometimes I think there should be one of those worldwide funds, like the Save the Children funds with their tear-jerking informercials, set up to help the unfortunate owners of gas cruising boats. After all, they're just victims, right? It's not their fault they lacked the foresight, the means, and the sense of dignity and class to get a diesel boat. Perhaps they didn't choose gas. Perhaps it was thrust upon them by unfortunate circumstances. A broken home, lousy education, possibly even gang influence could send a youngster down the road to gas and the ultimate humiliation and disgrace he faces later as an adult in a diesel world.

I can only speculate, however. You'd need a whole battery of phychologists to answer your question in something approaching a meaningful way.

That certainly is in the running for post of the month.

Art, if this was a tennis match that would be game,set and match. Thank you linesmen, thank you ball boys, that completes play for today.
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Old 04-05-2013, 03:14 AM   #96
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I don't see a need to run engines at idle and in neutral, immediately after starting, any longer than to assure they'll keep running (the engines are cold!) and to check the wet exhaust is indeed wet, like no more than five minutes. Then proceed at "high idle" for five or ten minutes in-gear to warm up the engines before proceeding at cruising speed.
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Old 04-05-2013, 06:16 AM   #97
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The problem with no load or ideling is always the same.

It is compression pressure , which only stays high if the piston is doing work , that causes the combustion gasses to increase the pressure behind the rings enough for them to actually seal.

Blowby , contaminated oil and burnished cylinder bores (the hone scratches are polished off) .

More frequent oil changes may help but "blowing her nose out " (half hour at high load) will not un-stick rings locked in carbon, or return the oil holding hone pattern.

I have often wondered if the new carbon cleaners the larger outboard mfg have developed would free the rings on an over idled/underloaded engine.
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Old 04-05-2013, 08:10 AM   #98
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What a laugh...here's Marin, stirring away writing his anti- gasoline engined boat ditty, with his tongue stuck so far into his cheek he would have looked like he had been stung by 100 hornets on one side of his face, Bruce, Art (to his credit as he was the butt of it), and Andy get it, Andy wraps it up with a neat one-liner absolutely on cue, then in come Mark and FF, back on thread as if nothing had happened. Where's yah sensayumah guys...?
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Old 04-05-2013, 08:57 AM   #99
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Great post Marin, that one will go down in history!!! Sure glad I have a diesel lol
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Old 04-07-2013, 07:12 PM   #100
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What on earth is "cool" about a smelly, noisy, expensive and heavy diesel eninge? They are basically for old loggers, fishermen, construction workers, truck drivers, even bus drivers but not cool folks in this world.

A DD sounds great but other diesels sound like old tractors. Listen to a fuel injected 350 GM Crusader starting up and feast your ears on some nice music.

Vibration isn't cool
Stink isn't cool.
High cost isn't cool.
Heavy isn't cool.
Obnoxious noise isn't cool.
Diesels aren't cool.

They don't put diesels in the coolest boat in the world for good reasons. Riva not only knows what's cool they are a class act too.

If gasoline wasn't so explosive most of our trawlers (heavy cruisers) would have the best engine in their boats. Light, smooth, quiet, inexpensive cost effective gas engines.

Nawwwww Marin you need to pour yourself a cup of objectivity.
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