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Old 03-14-2013, 10:35 PM   #21
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Thanks Boatpoker,
"I've measured many engines on sea trials with my thermal camera and infrared thermometer and I have never seen one get close to manufacturer recommended operating temperature unless run at least 65-70% of max RRPM."

I'm 200rpm over 70% of max rpm running 2300rpm and I think it's very close to 50% load. My engine is about 40hp and I'm burning 1gph.

You say "I agree. I never start my boat unless I am leaving the dock." I'm going to adhere to that from now on.

No comment about combustion by-products and condensation? That's what I thought was most interesting.
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Old 03-15-2013, 02:39 AM   #22
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I get a kick out of this and often think of diesel marine engines and of reading threads such as this while I utilize my simple to maintain, very quiet, and good running gas engines that can provide over 3,500 hours of trouble free use when serviced correctly... and cost pennies in comparison for rebuilds or complete new replacements.
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Old 03-15-2013, 03:09 AM   #23
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I get a kick out of this and often think of diesel marine engines and of reading threads such as this while I utilize my simple to maintain, very quiet, and good running gas engines that can provide over 3,500 hours of trouble free use when serviced correctly... and cost pennies in comparison for rebuilds or complete new replacements.
Nevertheless, I expect the Coot's 2010 John Deere diesel engine to outlive me. After all, I had a 63-year head start.
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Old 03-15-2013, 06:49 AM   #24
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Taking into account all of the above...added to what I remember has gone before, I think I'll stick to doing what I tend to do when not going out for a while, and I think Eric decided to also do. That is to crank her over with stop switch pressed, so it does several turns, spreads some oil around, but does not fire. That would in effect re-coat parts where gravity drainage has seen the oil thin, (I also use marine Magnatec), closes open valves and opens some which were closed, but does not create condensation or add to partly burned contaminants, and diesel being an oil, will coat the cylinder walls a bit as well. I do this about fortnightly. If it is longer than a couple of months since taken out I will run her up under load to operating water temp at the dock, so as to check the hoses, belts etc as well.
I change the oil yearly, we don't do huge run times, I doubt running to warm will make any differences to contaminants already present, so running for longer seems futile, and I still believe in the fundamental truth with any engine...that is the most wear occurs in the time the engine is running from cold, and running it longer will not change that. Shure, hot miles result in less wear per given distance than cold miles, but the warm up wear occurs EVERY TIME THE ENGINE IS RUN TO OP TEMP. So, the only way surely to reduce wear is to reduce the number of cold to hot occasions the engine experiences. The hot miles are then essentially almost wear free. I'm no mechanic, but this just seems to me to make sense.
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:10 AM   #25
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.......... I think I'll stick to doing what I tend to do when not going out for a while, and I think Eric decided to also do. That is to crank her over with stop switch pressed, so it does several turns, spreads some oil around, but does not fire. ...........
Doing that, you have to be carefull not to fill your muffler with water which will then back up into the cylinders. My Volvo manual has a warning about cranling the engine for a period of time without starting it.

Closing the seacock will prevent this but then you're running the impeller dry.

There's a downside to every choice except prehaps actually running the boat up and down the river every month.

It's probably noteworthy that boats pulled from the water and stored on land for the off season don't have their engines run at all and they seem to come out OK.
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Old 03-15-2013, 09:22 AM   #26
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Thanks for the warning Ron, but the number and speed of the cranks I do does not shift much water at all, and even if it did, the muffler is so much lower than the exhaust there's no way water would get back up there.
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Old 03-15-2013, 09:45 AM   #27
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Thanks for the warning Ron, but the number and speed of the cranks I do does not shift much water at all, and even if it did, the muffler is so much lower than the exhaust there's no way water would get back up there.
As I recall, mine says 30 seconds. I'm sure you wouldn't do this in one day but how about over the entire off season?

It's just a possibility, something for you and everyone else to keep in mind.
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Old 03-15-2013, 09:50 AM   #28
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While I rarely idle my engine at the dock longer than it takes to undo the lines, I do idle for 20 minutes after a fuel filter change, and I also idle for 20 to 30 minutes each spring at initial start up to sort of get the cobwebs out.
But those who say you cannot idle for more than a few minutes would never be able to run in a canal system as one example. It is not uncommon to HAVE to idle for 20 to 30 minutes or more while waiting for a lock. Last year waiting for one of the locks I had to stay at idle for one hour to keep my place in line. There was simply no space to tie up and wait.
To think that would ruin an engine is ludicrous.
We have all idled while waited for bridges to open as well.
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Old 03-15-2013, 10:02 AM   #29
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...I think I'll stick to doing what I tend to do when not going out for a while, and I think Eric decided to also do. That is to crank her over with stop switch pressed, so it does several turns, spreads some oil around, but does not fire.
That's what the Operation Manual for our Yanmar 4JH2-UTE recommends after periods of non-use of over a month. Apparently, 3 to 5 seconds is all it takes.
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Old 03-15-2013, 10:55 AM   #30
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Thanks Peter I forgot about the water ingestion. But I usually have the seacock closed. I started closing it again after I had an "experience" with the seacock.

I was changing the sea water pump impeller. Took off the cover and managed to get the impeller out w/o much trouble. I wanted to have the impeller w me in Craig the next day as an example so I'd get the right one. The next morning I went to Craig. It was later in the day when I got back but I decided to do the pump anyway. Opened the engine hatch and woohaaa ... lots of water in the bilge. It was up to the center of the engine mounts. The only bilge pump I had at the moment was the big 5000gph "OMG" pump. The other two were being re-plumbed so out of service. Turned on the OMG pump. Checked the flow. Pumping LOTS of water. Eric settling down. Fuse blew. Was'nt sure if there was a fuse in Thorne Bay. Went fly'in around look'in for a fuse. No find. Then I remember the outboard shop ... usually closed (part time business) .. Jim was open and I got a couple of fuses. After pumping a bit more bilge water the fuse blows. Back to the OB shop for more fuses. Finally the pump worked long enough to clear out the bilge water. I installed the new pump impeller and was greatly relieved.

So leaving the seacock open dosn't have the same appeal anymore. And no I'm sure there's plenty of water in the system to keep the impeller very wet.

Thanks Murray. I've been cranking 20 seconds.

And Jay in the idling situations you refer to are followed by normal operating loads probably most of the time if not all the time for quite a time after the idling. Fishermen idle their engines all day fishing but then they head for home .. usually quite a distance and they don't seem to suffer from it.

Ron, Right now Willy is hauled so running is not an option. Need to put some water in the intake hose. Just a little to lube the pump.

Peter, I'd consider doing what I do w oil changing ... change the oil w/o changing the filter. Every other change for you would be super easy to do. You'd still change your filter just as much as you do now but you're oil would be almost twice as clean. I do mine about 3 times a year but the filter only once. I hear changing lube oil in a diesel is much more important because of all the carbon that gets in there. So I change mine 3 times as often as a gas engine. Another plus for your gas engines Art.
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Old 03-15-2013, 11:50 AM   #31
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Nevertheless, I expect the Coot's 2010 John Deere diesel engine to outlive me. After all, I had a 63-year head start.
Agreed! But, I hope for your sake you out live the Deere engines' long life!
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Old 03-15-2013, 12:52 PM   #32
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This has been an interesting thread, to say the least. Pros & cons on whichever route you take. Me, I'll stick to what I've been doing since 1995.
History outweighs opinions, though well intended, that have been gleaned from the Internet.
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Old 03-24-2013, 07:50 AM   #33
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"I've heard that running your engine under no load is the "worst" thing you can do to it.
I've also heard that letting a diesel sit unused is the "worst" thing you can do to it."

The WORST thing you can do is to toss out Da Book that came with the engine.

Most will include a tome on "out of service for over 30 days" or something similar.

Ideling in the slip is the worst thing you can do to the engine , instead of following the engine builders advice.

Ideling under load at the dock is the WORST thing you can do to the Marina as a prop will move a lot of mud or sand in a very short time , unless the marina has 20 ft of water at your slip.

Either follow Da Book , including oil changes on time in the engine , not just hours , or go OUT FOR A BOAT RIDE!!

3 or so hours even if only monthly will "solve" a huge number of boating problems , before they happen.

IF the boat IS a Dock Queen , or sits all season, admit it and preserve the engine as the builder requires.
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Old 03-24-2013, 01:38 PM   #34
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I mention this with my feet kicked up... Ahhh; how, simple affordable, and easy it is to deal with gasoline engines!

Just sayen!!
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Old 03-24-2013, 03:16 PM   #35
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Sure , if you don't mind sleeping with a couple hundred gallons of gasoline, mixing humidity and ignition systems and changing engines every 1500 hrs.

To each his own. Everything is a compromise but for this application, I'll take diesels any day.
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Old 03-24-2013, 03:52 PM   #36
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Sure , if you don't mind sleeping with a couple hundred gallons of gasoline, mixing humidity and ignition systems and changing engines every 1500 hrs.

To each his own. Everything is a compromise but for this application, I'll take diesels any day.
I agree. For a boat you'll be sleeping on and living on, at least a few days at a time, a diesel is safer. There are many other advantages as well. The only disadvantage is initial cost.
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Old 03-24-2013, 03:59 PM   #37
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Awww Al give him a break,
That means if I had a gas engine it'd be 2/3rds worn out .............NO WAY!
Diesel is nice'n safe and twice as economical (fuel only) BUT THAT's it.
Gas engines are MUCH smoother and quieter and last a long time. My 73 Buick has never had any serious maintenance .... Heads never been off and it's really strong. Could use a carb rebuild but it runs perfect all the time. If it sits for a week or so it looses it's prime but that all. It's seen new shocks, batteries, the usual break work ect but to say the car has lasted and gone the distance ( over 100K) is an understatement. 100K is not high millage now but in it's time it was. Did some numbers and you are closer than I thought. 100000 miles at 50 mph is 2000 hrs. Not all that much actually. I've gone half that w my Mitsu and consider it basically a new engine. I wonder what they're say'in a new 350 Crusader w fuel injection would do re life expectancy re hours? So it looks like a modern gas engine should go 5000hrs and. A diesel 10 to 15K. I'll start a new thread unless someone beats me to it ....... I'm at Barns & Noble on the I-pad.

By the way does it say "posted on my I-pad" ??? I see a lot of that.
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Old 03-24-2013, 04:08 PM   #38
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Sure , if you don't mind sleeping with a couple hundred gallons of gasoline, mixing humidity and ignition systems and changing engines every 1500 hrs.

To each his own. Everything is a compromise but for this application, I'll take diesels any day.
Well...

- No smell of raw diesel fuel
- No odor from diesel exhaust
- Little to no mechanical break downs - cheaper mechanics and parts costs and more mechanics available if required
- Super quick & easy maintenance and service with elbow-room while working - on a twin screw that is
- Extended trolling & lower than usual rpm is no problem / good gph cruising economy at low rpm, i.e. hull speed or just below - although diesel is usually gets better gph
- Additive that keeps gasoline real clean for extended periods, i.e. Soltron!
- Relatively low temp exhaust lines
- 4,000 +/- hour gas engine life-time when used gently-correctly and oil with filter changed regularly
- Total engine replacement cost 1/4 to 1/8 of diesel
- Weight aboard approx 1/2 lower per engine
- Less frequent fuel filter services
- Explosion chance negligible to none when all items are well kept and there is a good airflow vent-system in engine and tank compartment with blower-fan used appropriately prior to startup.

Now: I’m just pointing out a few items the way I see em; and, also for what actually exists/occurs. Not saying that having and using diesel is a bad thing - at all. As you mention, "To each his own". And, in large/heavy boats diesel's high hp and torque capabilities are surely needed. I have been aboard many diesel cruisers (small, mid-sized, and large). My family had diesel while I grew up, gasoline too... in small and mid-sized boats.

I'm just saying that diesel is not for me and my Admiral while we own a rather small (mid-sized?) pleasure cruiser, i.e. 34' loa, 32' lwl, 12'6 beam, 21K gross lb tri cabin Tollycraft self contained pleasure cruiser!

Happy Boating Daze - To ALL!!!

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Old 03-24-2013, 04:53 PM   #39
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Sure , if you don't mind sleeping with a couple hundred gallons of gasoline, mixing humidity and ignition systems and changing engines every 1500 hrs.
A little diesel smell sure beats the hell out of a little gasoline smell. I agree with the above. If it's safety that's important to you, diesel wins hands down. I can't imagine ever buying a gas cruiser again. I did once and sold it 10 months from the day I purchased it. The definition of "pucker factor" is the smell of gasoline when you're offshore 15 miles.
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Old 03-24-2013, 05:02 PM   #40
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A little diesel smell sure beats the hell out of a little gasoline smell. I agree with the above. If it's safety that's important to you, diesel wins hands down. I can't imagine ever buying a gas cruiser again. I did once and sold it 10 months from the day I purchased it. The definition of "pucker factor" is the smell of gasoline when you're offshore 15 miles.
All it takes is... Maintenance, Maintenance, Maintenance!!!
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