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Old 06-12-2015, 10:40 PM   #141
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Good point Ready2GO,

Oh and how could I forget ... the seawater pump. Don't even talk about it Janice .. Huck it.
Recomend Jabsco rubber impeller seawater pump. Mine is perfect .. I'll get a number or model # if you like. I think David is right on that one.

Bruce on soft mounts a triple will jump around A LOT without even a load at anywhere near an idle. If bolted to a 15 ton boat a small triple will indeed be smooth. My last boat had a Yanmar 3cyl w very soft Yanmar mounts and near idle it was more or less a blurr.

Janice if you grab ahold of the engine (not running) and try hard to shake it (crossways) how much does it move back and forth in the vicinity of the valve cover?
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Old 06-12-2015, 10:40 PM   #142
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This is my guess as to how it would be plumbed, but only a guess.

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Old 06-12-2015, 10:46 PM   #143
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Okay, so if Seaweed does have a water heater per your drawing, the stainless box serves the same purpose as the coolant loop in our boat.
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Old 06-13-2015, 06:39 AM   #144
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If you think that contraption that Mike sketched is for domestic water heating, what is to keep that 500-800 degree hot exhaust from heating the water to several hundreds of degrees and a hundred pounds of pressure and blowing it apart.


You may be right and that is what Janice is doing, but it won't work. It is also total speculation as to what she is doing. I don't think she knows or she would have been more forthcoming.

I think that this entire thread is guilty of encouraging her to experiment with unconventional and unworkable systems because we like trail blazers. We analyze these weird schemes to death because that is what we do. Unfortunately some trail blazers get lost and fall of a cliff.


Rig that engine like every other marine engine. These issues were figured out by people a lot smarter than us many, many years ago. Why is there any debate about doing this?


If this thread had told her that in the very beginning and refrained from speculating about her weird stainless steel fabrication and other unconventional approaches, maybe she would have a workable engine by now. But at this point she is totally confused and helpless.


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Old 06-13-2015, 08:17 AM   #145
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The "heat exchanger" is a Rube Golberg/ Knomish devise that is totally extranious. It serves no purpose, in either concept, cabin heating or exhaust cooling, that is not already addressed by normal and accepted (read reliable) marine engine installation practices. For the money spent on fabrication Janice could have had a fresh watercooled exhaust manifold. Probably from a generator. But, the real teller here is the fact that her mechanic, and others involved, are ok with using a hydraulic pump ANYWHERE in the cooling system. Thats like a heart surgeon with a serated stake knife, and everone else in the room being ok with that. Not gonna work. The hydraulic pump is very low flow compared to even a small water pump, but it can put out in excess of 2500 psi. It must have oil to lubricate it, the clearances are in thousanths of an inch. If using it on the coolant side it would be superfluous because the engine has its own waterpump. On the raw water side, just a few hours of typical bay water will frag it, it will probably seize. If its gear driven it will break the cam gear, if belt driven it will burn up the belt. I understand thinking outside the box but these "mechanics" and others involved apparently have never even been in the box, therefor dont have a clue about thinking outside of it.
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Old 06-13-2015, 10:24 AM   #146
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Hard to believe even backyard mechanics would do all these outside the box things, worst in my mind being a hydraulic pump for anything but hydraulics for this job.

They have experience but why the drastic departures I wonder?

I also wonder if things are being lost in translation.....
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Old 06-13-2015, 10:26 AM   #147
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kulas:


Tell us what you really think. You are holding back. You gotta lay it on us.


You are absolutely right and I believe we aided and abetted this disaster. I wish you had spoken on post #2.


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Old 06-13-2015, 11:58 AM   #148
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Okay. The pump that I'd titled Hyd is NOT hydraulic. The mechanic looked it up and said it was a Jabsco F5B8007 with 1" ports. Variable pulley driven. V-belt.

So I came down to the boat and checked. The numbers on the pump that are visible read 6523-8000

It's mounted. I did not realize as it too was painted white like the engine. I was going from my picture titles. So the raw water pump is okay. She was just less than $300 as I recall, so price is in line with what has been suggested a raw water pump costs.

Regarding the heat exchanger: It is from a Mercury V8 engine and is "much too big" but it was free. It's mounted on the forward bulkhead. A wooden cradle supports both ends.

Rubber will go between copper unit and wood so vibration should not cause pin holes.

Part of the confusion is accurately described (see David's comments above)as me not fully understanding how it will work. This engineering/engine stuff is not my strong suit. I've learned way more about motors than I wanted to know. And I'm still a neophyte.

It all seems so simple and reasonable in the shop and until I get back to the boat and read here... then confusion! I am better at comprehending, but I'm still no where near what an experienced motor guy would know intuitively.

At one time the boys had talked about rigging the heat exchanger to be a water heater and/or to heat the boat should I take her further north. I did not encourage (nor discourage) the comments.

Frankly, I want the swap completed first. If the possibility exists later to have hot water or a heating system using what's here all the better. But first things first: make the motor go.

And the mechanic as much as admitted that Steve would be on the boat when the A/C arrives. I can well appreciate that. In the pilothouse last week (albeit near the overhead) temperatures were in the triple digits. Working in the bilge wasn't much cooler.

Sitting in front of fans is one thing... an entirely different thing than working.

The stainless manifold will have two supports. One where it bolts on and then mid-way where a brace will bolt on to the motor -- four bolts. It's going to be attached here: ((near the lower right motor mount and directly to the right of the bell housing))



The mount is angled. It has not been cut from steel. The mock-up is here. Ditto metal.

At the shop today the boys were saying she'd run very soon. Just a "little bit" more to do. Specifically that's the hoses. And the bracket for the stainless.

And thank you for putting up with my less than lucid explanations. I'm way over my head and your questions do have value. They are helpful and I am thankful for the input.

There is no shop manual that I can find for the Kubota 720-40. I've looked. Once I find something that will suffice, I'll buy it or have it printed if it's a digital version. I need paper versus screen time when studying something like this.

As for the manifold already built versus a stainless elbow? Well, I'm keeping the elbow option open for certain. I do not fully understand the reasoning behind it (except it's to cool the exhaust pipe) ...

If you want one of those stainless elbows for a Yanmar, this website has them at the best price:
ExhaustElbow.com -- A friend has a Yanmar and I pointed him over there after reading about the company.

That, and the risers on Beast (the gasoline engine) were iron.... I went through three sets of risers on Beast.

J, still learning.
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Old 06-13-2015, 12:13 PM   #149
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Oh, and absolutely zero lateral movement of any kind. All four motor mounts are fully seated. As seen in the last picture, there are two large aluminum L-braces through bolted to the stringers. The motor mounts are bolted to it.

These are your standard motor mounts ... I think they were $50 a pop. The size of the bolt holes on the engine dictated the motor mount sizing. I had wanted to re-use the ones from the Volvo but they were not the proper size. Volvo's were too large as I recall...

And that picture does not show them tightened down. There is a difference in the port and starboard side... Stringers on starboard are higher than on port. We learned that when Beast had the exhaust pipes welded. There's a half inch difference between the two.

Are all boats like that or just mine? I'm presuming the fancier Nordhavn's are symmetrical but wondered about other boats...

I remember when Daddy changed the windows in the saloon of our boat. We went from the rounded corners to pointed -- before Hatteras did so I might add if I were snarky today. Ours was similar to the Hatt41 sportsfish. But anyway, when Daddy ordered the glass he ordered matching sizes. The guy at the glass shop kept insisting they needed to be different sizes to fit the two sides of the boat.

Well, when installed one side overlapped 1/4" and the other 1/2" and Daddy was not a happy builder. He ended up making a custom teak screen and the edges covered the "mistake" -- it always ticked him off that his measurements were off.

Enough reminiscing... (and thankful spell check showed me how to spell that. Before spell-check there was always the thesaurus so I guess I'm covered)
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Old 06-13-2015, 01:08 PM   #150
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Janice- Post more pics from around engine and we'll do what we can to help.

Comments so far:

1. Please get rid of the stainless box. I know much went into it, but it fails engineering review. You just need a dry pipe going up and a mixing elbow going to hose.

2. Nothing wrong with using the big Mercruiser HX. Radiator cap needs to be higher than engine, though. Should not be hard to do.

3. Alternator is tractor type and only makes maybe 10A. If you want good batt charging, need to upgrade to a car type alternator.

4. Mounts look like those used on gas engines. They are stiff and will transmit vibes into boat at low speed. That can be resolved later if an issue.

5. Nothing unusual for mounts being 1/2" off. Just adjust mount screws so all four sit flat.
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Old 06-13-2015, 02:08 PM   #151
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Janice:


You do have a sense of humor and a thick skin.


Following up on Ski's thoughts, if you bolt up the mixer that you referenced above, it will probably not have enough height to flow downhill to the lift muffler.


Buy the one that I referenced for $155. Get your welder friend to cut off the round tube that goes to the "contraption" and weld a 2" SS coupling to it. Then add an elbow to turn up and another nipple to go up as high as you can in that engine compartment before you screw on the Yanmar mixer. Then route the outlet to your lift muffler with 2" hose.


You will need to support it so all of the weight doesn't hang off of the exhaust manifold. Get your welder to make up a strut out of 2" angle. Bolt the bottom to one of the starboard side transmission bolts and bolt the top end to a tab welded on the elbow.


Then insulate all of the exhaust manifold and the 2" pipe nipple and elbow up to the mixer. You can use the heat shield tape here- JEGS Performance Products 32030, JEGS Heat Shield Tape | JEGS Performance Products and wind it around each element.


The whole thing will cost $155 for the mixer, $50 for a couple of SS elbows and nipples, $20 for insulating tape and will take one cut and one weld.


Spend the money, do it right and you won't regret it.


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Old 06-13-2015, 02:20 PM   #152
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Re Janice's coment re shaking and Ski's #4 the "exchanger" may survive the vibration as there will be little .. on the engine. But the boat will vibrate a lot at low rpm's.
Yes I'm one of the guilty ones that wish we could start this all over again.
One saving note is that all can be changed out after launch. Janice the important thing about the pump is that it has a vane type RUBBER impeller. And the volume needs to be quite close to optimal. That's why I mentioned my pump that is only a tad bigger than what you need. I think that will fly by Ski and hope he concurs.
I'm sure you will get the normal exhaust elbow in time.
It sounds like the mounts are way too stiff but that will only be a vibration of the boat problem. Later some day you can Address that one. Shaft alignment will be easier though. Be advised that prop shaft will need to be done again once you're in the water. Do that basically ASAP.
If it were me I'd be beating the bush hard for a water cooled exhaust manifold. e-bay, Craig's List ect ect. Find out what marine engines use that Kabouta engine (think sailboats or aux. generators).
For all those that have given advice too late or too supportive of the out of the box stuff think what Janice's world would have been without our input at all.
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Old 06-13-2015, 05:58 PM   #153
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IIRC, the aformentioned hydraulic pump was accompanied by a pic of said hydraulic pump. The pic was in fact of a hydraulic pump. And yes PS, I think much has been lost in translation. The later pics show a fairly nice installation. The raw water pump is about 3 times to big, but thats better than to small. I would experiment with larger pullies until the flow was right. Lower pump rpm equates to longer lasting impellors. It wont take much water thru that big HX to get sufficient cooling. On the HX, again, way overkill but to much here is a good thing, and no it wont "overcool". I agree that the quest for a true marine exhaust manifold and mixing elbow should be on the short list. 86 that SS box. Definitely get a decent alternator.
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Old 06-13-2015, 10:17 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski in NC View Post
3. Alternator is tractor type and only makes maybe 10A. If you want good batt charging, need to upgrade to a car type alternator.
I've got a Hirth (spelling?) 60 amp from a friend's Yanmar. He upgraded to a Balmar120 and passed along his old one. And the old alternator is in a box. New one has a different footprint (of course -- it is a boat)

J

I did send a PM (private message) Ski. And thank you a lot for your patience in dealing with someone who is way out of her league as far as engines goes. But I didn't have to say that, did I?!?
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Old 06-13-2015, 10:41 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kulas44 View Post
The raw water pump is about 3 times to big, but thats better than to small. I would experiment with larger pullies until the flow was right. Lower pump rpm equates to longer lasting impellors. It wont take much water thru that big HX to get sufficient cooling. On the HX, again, way overkill but to much here is a good thing, and no it wont "overcool". I agree that the quest for a true marine exhaust manifold and mixing elbow should be on the short list. 86 that SS box. Definitely get a decent alternator.
It's a Jabsco raw water pump kulas44... and it is big. The mechanic consulted a catalog and said it was a Jabsco F5B8007 with 1" ports. Variable pulley driven. V-belt.

So I came down to the boat and checked. The numbers on the pump that are visible read 6523-8000

A friend passed along his Hirth60 amp alternator so that's covered...

I'll be glad when this nightmare is over. This has not been much fun.

And Seaweed... well, she's my home. My heart and soul are in this haven. I'll be glad when the motor is running. That will no doubt make this part fade from my memory faster than a pelican arrives at the pier when a fishing boat comes to the dock.
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Old 06-14-2015, 10:33 AM   #156
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BEWARE , When the engine operates it sometimes is done that the boat tied in its slip the engine is run up.

Fine for FWD and Rev check at idle , but after that any power check should be underway.

Your prop is designed to be fed water at perhaps 5K at cruise speed., the boats speed.

The pitch will add 5K+ to the water flow so the props output will be about 10K, this normal.

The problem is stationary the prop will attempt to pump the water to 10K , with N0 fwd motion.

With an efficient large diameter prop you can easily overload the engine.

Black smoke will usually occur and you might think something is wrong , when its not.

You also will have to install a gate valve in the sea water circuit as an engine that size would require what a 3/8 or at max a 1/2 inch pump would output.

If you overload the muffler /exhaust with water it can back up into the engine , a big NO NO.

Look at what the marinizers for this model engine chose and install that size!! Look at Beta Marine

Some times bigger is not better.

The 1 inch can be returned new .
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Old 06-14-2015, 10:38 AM   #157
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"Bigger is not better"?

Did I hear you say that FF?

I never woulda thunk.
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Old 06-14-2015, 10:42 AM   #158
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"Bigger is not better"?

I did say SOMETIMES!

How does yet another million gov, burorats sound?
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Old 06-14-2015, 11:41 AM   #159
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FF is right. That 1" pump has worried me too.


That much pump will try to push more water through the mixer and it may be more than the water lift muffler can exhaust effectively. And I doubt if a valve in the circuit before the exchanger will work well either. It will cause the pump discharge pressure to skyrocket, produce lower flow than design and probably will cause premature impeller wear.


Replace that pump with at most a 1/2" pump as FF suggests.


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Old 06-14-2015, 12:14 PM   #160
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As a single data point, the standard size raw water pump on a Ford Lehman 120 is 3/4". When we went with new Johnson pumps on our engines we installed 1" pumps on the recommendation of American Diesel and our diesel shop. This noticeably increased the flow which did not change the engine coolant temperature because of the thermostat but did lower the transmission temperature some, which is good.

When it comes to pump pressures and muffler capability and so forth I'm pretty ignorant. But I wonder if the flow from a 1" pump on a tiny engine could prevent the engine from reaching its proper operating temperature except at high or maximum rpm?
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