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Old 06-12-2015, 07:18 AM   #121
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Had you asked the folks here BEFORE beginning , you might have saves big bucks , been underway long ago , and not have questions about reliability.

If you have another big project , asking for opinions first might pay.


Janice has already admitted learning that, several pages ago; I suspect no sense beating that horse any deader.

Probably more constructive to offer no- or low-cost ideas for improving the system she's ending up with... if there are ways to do that.

-Chris
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Old 06-12-2015, 08:04 AM   #122
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Thanks for the tip that Newegg had branched out. I'vee bought from them in the past.

And it's giid to know Think Geeg is still around or back. I thought they had shut down a while back. But perhaps I'm thinking of another site. Either way they both have some cool stuff.

I wish you well on your project. But I'm still completely baffled on the thinking behind much of it.

As someone else said, I wish I was closer and had the time to help you out.
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Old 06-12-2015, 09:29 AM   #123
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" Had you asked the folks here BEFORE beginning , you might have saves big bucks , been underway long ago , and not have questions about reliability."
With all due respect to Janice, asking opinions on the internet and coming up with a reasonable conclusion, requires a fair degree of analytical ability to sort out misguided, opinionated and plain wrong advice, of which there has been a bit of on this thread so far. In following this thread, I haven't seen any evidence of that ability.

Also I have to wonder, where is the mechanic in all this? Doesn't he understand the need for a rubber impeller sea water pump, or a normal way to handle exhaust cooling, like an injection elbow. Or is he just following her direction blindly.

He reminds me of her son's first plastic surgeon: maybe competent to change oil and filters, but has no clue what makes a marine engine work.

This project will not have a happy ending.

David
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Old 06-12-2015, 11:51 AM   #124
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Janice,

My hats off to you for two reasons.

1. The fact that you would undertake such a project. Most women and many men would not take on such a project.

2. Your willingness to share the good, the bad, and the ugly of the project here on the forum. This forum can not discuss something as simple as refinishing one's handrails without total disagreement and heated exchanges much less the changing of an engine.

I know you have had some helpful coments on this thread and a LOT of negative comments. I can appreciate your thick skin or at least your ability to ignore some peoples self assured advice even though they are not there looking at it and most assuredly do not have all the facts and info that your mechanic has having been there and seeing the project from the beginning.

Enjoy the AC while you can.
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Old 06-12-2015, 12:23 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by FF View Post
"I think it's pushing the coolant and fresh water through the system, not salt. I've got to confirm that. There are two pumps. One for raw water and the other for fresh."

The usual pump to circulate the engine coolant is the stock built in water pump.

The usual sea water pump is a simple impeller pump with a belt from the engine to push the sea water thru the heat exchanger and out the exhaust.

This is the Std setup. I have seen folks that used a good sized bait well pump , instead of the belted sea water pump with no bad effects.

Fast , OTS and no mounting hassles.

Had you asked the folks here BEFORE beginning , you might have saves big bucks , been underway long ago , and not have questions about reliability.

If you have another big project , asking for opinions first might pay.
IF I ever was crazed enough to consider another engine replacement, it would be a four-bolt tune-up. In other words, I'd bolt a doggone outboard on the transom and call it good.

I'm not certain why the large capacity hydraulic pump was chosen and will ask. No one is at the shop right now -- off on other higher priority jobs than mine.

There have been times... When doing stuff that is not straight from the books there are issues. Crossing t's and dotting i's at present.

Well, suffice it to say one hopes one gets smarter as one ages. And I'm not ever going to do this again. Ever.

It's not just the worry, time and aggravation, it's the time. Time is all too fleeting. And if the cooling complication doesn't work, there are options -- That is not off the table for certain.

I hope it doesn't come down to that, but if so, well, it's there.
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Old 06-12-2015, 12:43 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djmarchand View Post
With all due respect to Janice, asking opinions on the internet and coming up with a reasonable conclusion, requires a fair degree of analytical ability to sort out misguided, opinionated and plain wrong advice, of which there has been a bit of on this thread so far. In following this thread, I haven't seen any evidence of that ability.

Also I have to wonder, where is the mechanic in all this? Doesn't he understand the need for a rubber impeller sea water pump, or a normal way to handle exhaust cooling, like an injection elbow. Or is he just following her direction blindly.
I am not involved in the design... this is not my area of expertise and thus I rely on those with experience.

And am following the local advice.

For the record, this place is far better than Steinhatchee in that the boats I saw there were predominantly outboards. I did not feel like that would be a good place to have a motor problem resolved. So I opted to come back to Carrabelle.

Of course I wish in retrospect I'd asked more questions first. Also consulting people outside of Carrabelle -- like here on TrawlerForum for instance -- that would have been a Good Idea too. But I didn't. And locally, this is what they believe will work.

And too I could have had her hauled to St Pete. But I didn't.

Mechanic and helper are both experienced in engines with 30+ years each, give or take so they are not total neophytes. Now taking a tractor and turning it into a marine motor? That's new for certain.

Are the complications? Yes. Primarily cooling -- this engine was designed for radiator cooling. There were heated discussions here (Carrabelle) about rather to keep that or opt for keel, etc. Lots of options were argued and this is what the mechanics chose as Best.

And in the trenches you depend upon what is close at hand, hopefully learning as one proceeds. Will this work? I hope so.

If it doesn't, there are options as detailed above.

Thanks.
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Old 06-12-2015, 01:00 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by READY2GO View Post
Enjoy the AC while you can.
But but but... you have one. You're my inspiration for the a/c unit. I'd have tried to tough it out but you have one on a mooring. I want to be you, but smaller.

I've got a big tarp (it's from a 40' Rhodes Bounty) that is triangular. That's going to eventually be a bow shade. Until I get to a place where I can find supports to attach to my bow rail, I've got it stowed.

Up, tied to the rail it looks like a shanty boat. I can't live like that.

And the attachment points to the pilothouse I've not yet managed to acquire. I heard of a place called Pinellas Fasteners in St Pete and will call them. I want stainless eyebolts (50 of them as I have plans for in the cockpit too) size 6. Bolts though, not the screw kind. I'll need nuts too.

I'll replace the screws holding on the trim around my cabin and have the eyes facing inside. Thus they won't gouge anyone.

In the summer the shade will cover the bow. In the winter I'll be able to hang my Christmas lights. The cockpit will be used for a screen in the summertime.

There's always something, eh? Still, my friend in St Pete says Pinellas Fasteners is the place to go for all things attaching. And they have an extensive selection of stainless too. Everything from fences to stainless u-bolts. I'd like to wander the store.

There's no telling what else I didn't know I needed.

Monday is a/c day. I bought the Haier 5000 btu one (smallest footprint) and look forward to doing nothing in front of a blast of cold air.
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Old 06-12-2015, 02:32 PM   #128
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..... asking opinions on the internet and coming up with a reasonable conclusion, requires a fair degree of analytical ability to sort out misguided, opinionated and plain wrong advice......
This is a very astute assessment of the major drawback of the internet. The internet gives authority to anyone with a keyboard. I have no idea if this will change with the generations to come, but the current ones, particularly those in the over-50 age group, tend to believe what they see in print. I believe this is due to our growing up with books as our primary source of indirect information. "If it's in print, it must be true."

Books tend to be more reliable sources of information simply because of the effort it takes to write, edit, and publish them. There are more checks and balances and people involved in the creation of a book than in the creation of a post like the one I am writing here, where there are zero checks and balances outside of the basic forum rules.

So as David accurately summed up, it falls solely on the reader's shoulders to determine if what he or she reads on the internet is credible, accurate, and reliable. Even Wikipedia has major errors and inaccuracies in its descriptions-- I have found a lot of them in the aviation subjects over the years.

Which is why, as I have stated previously in other discussions, I never act on anything I read in this forum with regards to important things--- engines, drive trains, electrical and electronic systems, refrigeration, propane systems, and so forth unless I can confirm it with a professional or someone I know personally who has proven to be credible on the particular subject.

Forums like this can be a good source of ideas--- things or solutions that might work in such and such a situation. But until or unless I can determine to my own satisfaction and judgement that an idea is sound, I give it no credibility whatsoever.

Now just because an individual is a "professional"--- gets paid for their work--- it doesn't mean they are credible or correct or reliable, either. One has to be able to judge people as well as internet postings.

I don't know enough about engines and their systems to have an opinion one way or the other about the path Janice has chosen to follow with regards to re-powering her boat. Nor do I know Janice herself, so I am in no position to judge how she arrived at the decisions she has been making.

But, like every undertaking, what she is doing will work well, will work okay, will work not so good, or won't work at all. The only way to know is to do it and see.
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Old 06-12-2015, 06:48 PM   #129
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Janice:


You sent me a PM and asked me not to post it here so I won't, but let me offer two pieces of advice. Both are supported by Ski, a mechanical engineer and a marine engine mechanic who has posted on this thread. He is the best at what he does on the east coast. Plus he is a bit more adventuresome than me- he says that non jacketed exhaust manifolds are ok and has experience in doing it. I accept that.


First, find out what kind of raw water pump that you have. It is the one that takes seawater from the seacock and pumps it through the heat exchanger. If you can't find out for sure, take the cover off. If it does not have a rubber impeller it is no good and will fail shortly. A rubber impeller pump costs about $300.


Second, that beautiful piece of stainless steel fabrication may work for a while but is destined for failure and will destroy your engine when it does. That whole piece of stainless steel can be replaced with a couple of pipe fittings and this part from eBay which sells for less than $200- Yanmar Stainless Steel Exhaust Mixing Elbow GM Diesel Models 128370 13600 | eBay


You can get your welder to make up an adapter from the exhaust output flange to 2" pipe thread that mates up to this stainless steel elbow. It will do everything that the big stainless fabrication does and be safer if you orient the mixer right.


Do the above and you will have a sweet running engine. Stick with what you have and it will fail sooner or later.


I too wish I could come help. We could get it running in a half day with the help of your welder and a couple of parts made specifically for that service.


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Old 06-12-2015, 07:09 PM   #130
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David--- Just curious..... what is it about the custom heat exchanger that you feel will cause it to fail sooner rather than later? And how do you believe it will fail?

I'm not challenging your position at all. While I know the principles of a heat exchanger what I know about their design requirements and so forth wouldn't cover the head of a pin. The only ones I have any direct experience with are the ones on our two FL120s.

But it would be interesting to know in an educational sense what the drawbacks are of the exchanger that's been made for Janice's engine?
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Old 06-12-2015, 07:16 PM   #131
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Marin:

Well, in addition to being horribly unwieldy compared to a simple cast SS exhaust elbow, it appears that it will trap sea water inside after it shuts down. All of the welds will be subject to long term exposure to sea water which usually causes them to fail eventually.

I probably was overstating the potential for harm to the engine, it doesn't look like the sea water will back up to the exhaust port.

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Old 06-12-2015, 08:18 PM   #132
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David--- I'm having a bit of difficulty understanding exactly what the device is. At first I thought it was a heat exchanger for the coolant, but in studying the photo/diagram I'm not sure it is.

As I interpret it, the exhaust (red/white arrows) enters from the left and the raw water (blue/white arrows) enters from the top, mixes with the exhaust and is blown (red/blue arrows) out of the boat with it.

What I don't understand are the green arrows and stars. Is this supposed to be engine coolant, coming in at the bottom and leaving at upper left side? If it is, and it fills the box before exiting, what is the purpose of putting it in the box with the hot exhaust in the first place?

I would assume the engine still needs a heat exchanger since it's not keel cooled (is it?).

If this device is supposed to fill the function of both a heat exchanger for the coolant AND a mixing elbow to get rid of the raw water via the exhaust, I guess I'm not seeing a flow pattern here that makes sense.

If it sits higher than the engine's exhaust manifold, any subsequent pinholing or weld failure inside the box would have the potential to allow water or coolant to run back down into the exhaust manifold and thus into the cylinders.

I agree that a basic mixing elbow to send the exhaust and raw water to the riser muffler would seem to make the most sense if that's the only function that's needed here. So what is the reasoning behind this particular design?

The photo below is the exhaust-heat exchanger-mixing elbow-riser muffler setup on our port FL120. I understand the flow pattern here and this setup was designed specifically to put all the components--- elbow, connecting hose, and muffler--- lower than the engine's exhaust manifold to make it impossible for water to get back into the manifold.

But perhaps I have totally mis-interpreted the function or flow in Janice's device....
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Old 06-12-2015, 08:45 PM   #133
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Janice,

My hats off to you for two reasons.

1. The fact that you would undertake such a project. Most women and many men would not take on such a project.

2. Your willingness to share the good, the bad, and the ugly of the project here on the forum. This forum can not discuss something as simple as refinishing one's handrails without total disagreement and heated exchanges much less the changing of an engine.

I know you have had some helpful coments on this thread and a LOT of negative comments. I can appreciate your thick skin or at least your ability to ignore some peoples self assured advice even though they are not there looking at it and most assuredly do not have all the facts and info that your mechanic has having been there and seeing the project from the beginning.

Enjoy the AC while you can.

Double ditto for me, Janice. If it's as hot and miserable up there as it was in my Sarasota garage today, I feel for ya. Hope the A/C goes with a cold beer or two.
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Old 06-12-2015, 09:07 PM   #134
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Marin:


In some of Janice's posts she has referred to a heat exchanger. So I assume that there is a typical coolant to raw water heat exchanger before the fabricated stainless part.


I think your description of how it works is accurate. It seems to be a crazy attempt to duplicate the function of a jacketed exhaust manifold while totally missing the point of that manifold.


The purpose of jacketing the manifold in a marine engine is more to contain the heat and not so much to remove heat from the exhaust stream. This device will do the later but not the former function.


If you don't jacket the exhaust manifold, then you probably need to insulate it to keep the heat out of the engine compartment. But like I said above, Ski has had success in doing this with low output marine engines and I believe him.


David
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Old 06-12-2015, 09:42 PM   #135
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David--- Thanks for the explanation. In the photos back on page 4 or so of the engine's installation with this device in place, the exhaust manifold consists of the typical automotive system of a pipe from each exhaust port going into a single pipe that goes aft and then around the back of the engine. It is at this point that the exhaust pipe connects to the fabricated unit.

Unless the installer is intending to put lagging around the exposed exaust manifold prior to the fabricated unit, there will still be a lot of heat transferred into the engine space, is that not correct?

On the typical marinzed engine the exhaust manifold is part of the marinization kit and it's cooled by the engine's coolant circulating through it. The classic example is the Lehman "EconoPower" manifold on the FL120, FL135, etc.

I can see how the custom-fabricated device in Janice's installation will prevent some of the exhaust heat from getting into the engine room but it does seem a rather elaborate partial solution with the potential for perhaps being problematic in the future.

I'm kind of a fan of the KISS principle. Since a coolant-cooled manifold is not an option given the automotive configuration of this particular engine and the cost-constraints on the project, I'm curious if a water injection elbow (to get rid of the raw water after it goes through the heat exchanger) and then simply wrapping the whole thing from block to lift muffler (or at least to the injection elbow) in lagging as is done with a dry-stack might have been an alternative, simpler, and less expensive option?

It would be interesting and perhaps educational to hear the reasoning behind the fabricated unit from the folks who designed and built it.
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Old 06-12-2015, 10:08 PM   #136
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I can't identify w the non jacketed exhaust manifold. I would imagine a good water jacketed manifold equipped engine in Florida in the summer would be bad enough. But w a manifold just like a car or tractor ?

But the exhaust heat exchanger looks like it would work fairly well except for it's mounting. The vibration will be a big problem. I'm quite sure Janice dosn't have appropriate engine mounts. So at certian rpm's the vibration will be bad to terrible. If I knew Janice had a good flexable exhaust coupling I'd take back my recomendation of the crossways mounting. I'm talking about the accordion like SS exhaust pipe often used to control vibration especially for larger fixed engines. The vibration forces will be back and forth mounted crossways and yawing w fore and aft mounting. With a good flexible coupling and some balance mounting on CG the fore and aft mounting would probably be better. Of course if the engine was bolted solidly to the engine stringers the vibration problem for the "exchanger" would not exist. But solidly mounted original teeth may be a requirement for those aboard.

But for the exchanger itself I suspect there may be some high stresses caused by expansion and contraction. Some welds will probably be severely stressed. I don't think any heat stress engineering has been done for this one but one could easily get lucky. Actually I haven't looked at Janice's pics/diagrams for some time. The sheer volume of water in the exchanger could keep heat stress in check. Just don't know. But I think the high mass of the exchanger and vibration of the small 3cyl diesel will probably be the biggest problem.
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Old 06-12-2015, 10:22 PM   #137
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I hope Janice gets there with this project, it`s sure not for want of TF help.
Eric, not so sure about 3cyl vibration, my 3cyl Onan (? Kubota powered) runs very smoothly.
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Old 06-12-2015, 10:22 PM   #138
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I may be off base hear but I seem to remember Janice talking about heating water for cabin heat and for the water heater. If this is what it is for it may not be part of the engine cooling system. She has a heat exchanger for the fresh water engine cooling system. I can see how if you connected the water heater exchanger and possibly a cabin heater with a pump to this box that it could work. Maybe that is what the mechanic is doing with it.
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Old 06-12-2015, 10:32 PM   #139
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David--- Thanks for the explanation. In the photos back on page 4 or so of the engine's installation with this device in place, the exhaust manifold consists of the typical automotive system of a pipe from each exhaust port going into a single pipe that goes aft and then around the back of the engine. It is at this point that the exhaust pipe connects to the fabricated unitÖÖ.
I'm kind of a fan of the KISS principle. Since a coolant-cooled manifold is not an option given the automotive configuration of this particular engine and the cost-constraints on the project, I'm curious if a water injection elbow (to get rid of the raw water after it goes through the heat exchanger) and then simply wrapping the whole thing from block to lift muffler (or at least to the injection elbow) in lagging as is done with a dry-stack might have been an alternative, simpler, and less expensive option?
It would be interesting and perhaps educational to hear the reasoning behind the fabricated unit from the folks who designed and built it.
Methinketh thou doest undervalue thy knowledge Marin, and that forsooth it would take an item larger than a pinhead to accommodate thy knowledge. Because I think thy statement above doth maketh the most sense I've read yet.

Taketh thou heed of this mayhap, Janice., an it not be too late..?

Sorry, just finished reading a ripping yarn written in Shakespearian type English. It was fun.
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Old 06-12-2015, 10:35 PM   #140
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Mike-- If the intention is to heat water, and the green arrows and stars in the photo represent fresh water that then goes to the boat's water and cabin heat system, that would seem to work well here.

Most of our cruisers have an enlarged version of this same concept--- coolant from one (or the) engine is plumbed to a hot water heater mounted somewhere in the boat, runs through internal piping thus heating the fresh water surrounding the pipes, and then goes back to the engine.

If that is what Janice is intending to accomplish here, and given that interior space is at a premium on this boat with perhaps little or no room for a more conventional water heater, then it would seem to have the potential of working quite well when the engine is running.
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