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Old 05-25-2015, 10:59 AM   #101
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This thread has gone way off track from its original purpose of advising Janice how to marinize her Kubota diesel. Let me summarize where (I think) we/she are:

1. She is using original non jacketed manifold. OK probably but keep anything combustible a foot or more away and provide more extensive engine cooling- vents and maybe an exhaust fan.

2. The raw water circulating pump is a big question. If it is not a rubber impeller Jabsco/Johnson/Sherwood pump, it will fail over time. Do not use a hard impeller pump. Barnacles, sea weed, etc will jam the impeller and shear the shaft. That is why rubber impellers are used on all marine engines, plus they don't corrode.

3. That beautiful stainless steel fabricated exhaust cooler is a disaster. Methinks it first uses jacket water to cool the exhaust and then some sort of raw water injector/mixer that leaves a pocket to ultimately corrode. With all due respect Janice, junk it and use a proper dry (but insulated) riser to go up after the exhaust manifold followed by an injection elbow.

All in all a J, J or S raw water pump will cost several hundred dollars plus you have to figure out how to support it and drive it but the pump you already have seems to do that. A proper mixer made of stainless steel casting will cost $500+.

Get your skilled stainless welder to weld up a dry exhaust elbow with a riser that goes up as high as your engine room will allow and then turns horizontal where matches up to the mixer. You may or may not need a water lift muffler after that. But you will at least need an inline muffler. See Centek's website.

But my final advice would be to call Stanley Feigenbaum at Beta Marine NC, and see if he will quote you a reasonable price for those components assuming that Beta uses your model engine for its marinized offering. Also ask him what a jacketed exhaust manifold would cost.

David
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Old 05-25-2015, 11:56 AM   #102
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I have had zero problems using dry manifolds on little Japanese engines. On one I did a fiberglass wrap, and on another I hose clamped thin aluminum flashing. Both acted as barriers to radiant and convective heat transfer. Heat in the engine box seemed no different than a wet install, but that is subjective. I would not do this on a customer's boat for liability reasons, but for my personal goofball projects it worked just fine with minimal risk.

I agree with Dave on point 3. Very pretty weldment but it does not belong in Seaweed's ER.

Dave- one photo showed a belt drive Jabsco on stbd side of block, think they got that covered.

Boat has a water lift muffler, so there really needs to be no high rise dry pipe either, provided the outlet of the muffler has enough rise.
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Old 05-25-2015, 02:56 PM   #103
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The pump dosn't quite look like the typical rubber impeller sea water pump but it's just a picture. Janice ... is it?

Janice is on lunch break and until Tuesday as I recall.
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Old 05-25-2015, 04:40 PM   #104
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Just get a wet manifold off an Onan genset. There must be tons of them around.
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Old 05-25-2015, 06:21 PM   #105
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Just get a wet manifold off an Onan genset. There must be tons of them around.
I've got one off a D950 sitting in the shop. Not sure if it will fit on a D720.
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Old 05-26-2015, 01:27 AM   #106
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I've got one off a D950 sitting in the shop. Not sure if it will fit on a D720.
That won't fit... the 720-40 is different from the 850 and 950 which are quite prevalent.

As for the exhaust, well, we are going with what is built. Another individual suggested coating the inside of the pipe where the raw water enters (just before the hose attaches with a heat-resistant silicone. I don't know about that but there is nothing between the hose and the exit of the boat except a Vernier water-lift muffler.



That pump from my title seems to indicate hydraulic. Title is: KubotaHydPump-GP036-2-2



As I understand it, that will be pushing a combination of fresh water and coolant through the system. Is there a reason that use would be contraindicated? Is it "no" for salt but not fresh? And I could be wrong. It *might* be for the raw water injection but I don't think so.

I'll ask about that tomorrow too.

Tomorrow is the day. Mechanic is to be here in the morning. And there are no parts that are due in so none of that boatyard fertilizer where they say "Yes, your parts were ordered a couple weeks ago, but one was back-ordered so I had them hold to ship all together. Let me check on that today" followed by placement of the order.

As for the design that is off from the standard? Well, I don't know for certain if it will work. It's bought and paid for so will give it a shot. If the cooling system won't work my IR gun should tell me so.

And coating the inside of the pipe (from nipple to exit) is an option brought up elsewhere. Another suggestion to anneal perhaps came in... I am concerned about corrosion.

Wonder if corroseal would help/work? The shrimp boat just bought 5 gallons so there's some of that magic stuff right here.

David said: "1. She is using original non jacketed manifold. OK probably but keep anything combustible a foot or more away and provide more extensive engine cooling- vents and maybe an exhaust fan."

I've been assured the box will be cool enough to touch. That said, there are vents in the bilge (starboard intake of air, port is exit) and two 4" blowers. The bilge is open and airy -- 30" fore and aft and about 7' wide. Oh and 3' deep at centerline.

And Ski said: "Boat has a water lift muffler, so there really needs to be no high rise dry pipe either, provided the outlet of the muffler has enough rise."

Yes, the Vernier hose goes up and then down to the exhaust out the side of the boat. The high point is well above the waterline.

Xsbank said: "Just get a wet manifold off an Onan genset. There must be tons of them around."

Too true. I'm willing to give this a trial and if it doesn't work go with the standard wet exhaust. The thing is, the investment is there. If we don't try we doom it to failure. If this does work, good. Make that Great.

But if not, switching is not going to be a problem either. We test first before throwing out what's here. I hope it functions but am not married to it either. I am no worse off for having tested it.

[The initial engine swap I paid for. This one, all the labor is free. So trialing the stainless won't harm me in the least. Except timewise.]

I am concerned about the corrosion issue a the point of raw water input. Would Corroseal protect the metal or is that just for steel, not stainless? Ditto, what did you think of the idea floated re heat-resistant silicone over the pipe from where the raw water enters to the exit where the hose attaches?

And I do appreciate the input. This is new territory. And yes, I do wish I'd posted about the plan earlier. I'm always smarter after the fact, however I am willing to test things first. And if they don't work, I move on.

Always have a Plan B, even if it has to be created on the fly... And after B, there are 24 more letters in the alphabet.
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Old 05-26-2015, 07:03 AM   #107
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"I am concerned about the corrosion issue a the point of raw water input."

Stainless kept underwater , deprived of air has big problems.

In your application I do not think it could be a problem.
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Old 05-27-2015, 09:38 AM   #108
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By all means put a coating on if it makes you feel better. However, no coating will last long in a mixture of diesel exhaust gases and warm salt water.

The idea of an exhaust riser is to get the injection point for raw water at least 12" above the waterlift muffler. You also want the injection point to be above the waterline if possible or you will have siphon problems. If you can't get the injection point above the waterline, then you need to put a loop in the raw water injection hose that goes above the waterline to a siphon break before it connects to the raw water injection point.

If you decide in the long run to go with a riser, you can make a perfectly good one from black iron pipe and fittings available from any hardware store. You can buy a perfectly good injection elbow that matches the size of the iron pipe for under $200 (any engine brand will work). My Westerbeke 46 has a black iron riser that is in very good condition after 15 years. If I need to replace it, the pipe and fittings cost less than $20.
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Old 05-27-2015, 09:56 AM   #109
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The previous talk about an elbow costing $500 is/was probably coming from members w bigger boats overlooking the fact that this is on a much smaller boat than theirs. I think my elbow for my 36hp Yanmar was $160.

And TDunn I think she has a riser after her lift muffler. I have risers at both points but if one has a riser after the lift muffler I suspect the riser after the exhaust manifold is probably not necessary. Not sure.

But I think her helpers have a lot of time into the monster cooler/riser so if I were her I wouldn't just tell them to huck it out and put in some hardware store stuff.

A black iron riser that's gone 15 years???? Must be FW.
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Old 05-27-2015, 01:39 PM   #110
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The loop after the waterlift is to limit water getting into the system from outside the boat. As I understand it, she has a side exhaust so that isn't so much of a problem as it is with an waterline exhaust on the transom where a following sea can force water into the exhaust system. In fact, if the side exhaust is 12" or more above the waterline no loop in the hose between the muffler and the exhaust port on the hull is needed.

The waterlift muffler needs to be sized to accommodate all the water in the haust system up to the hump in the exhaust hose after the muffler. If the waterlift isn't big enough, water can potentially back up into the engine. The comment I made about having the raw water injection point 12" above the waterlift muffler is to minimize the risk of water backing up into the engine when the engine is shut down.

The need for a riser depends on the location of the engine relative to the waterlift muffler. For example, I have a riser on my sailboat because the engine sits quite low and the exhaust port on the engine is actually below the waterlift muffler. Thus I need a riser to get the injection elbow above the muffler. In contrast, I do not have a rised on my powerboat because the muffler is below the engine exhaust port by more than 12".
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Old 05-27-2015, 08:59 PM   #111
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The mechanic was here yesterday. My motor mounts were redrilled (forward by 1") to accommodate the flexible coupler and stainless manifold/riser cooling box.

The engine has not had her final alignment.

I'd take pictures but my phone is being replaced. Verizon is sending me a new one (under warranty) as this one is incapable of picture messaging. And this was "fixed" 15 days ago so when I asked about Lemons, they sent me to Tier Two where the decision to replace was made.

Their insurance company process was excruciating. But it's done.

Answers, If I know them, inserted in bold text below.

Quote:
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By all means put a coating on if it makes you feel better. However, no coating will last long in a mixture of diesel exhaust gases and warm salt water.

Good information. I see no purpose in that case. Thank you for the clarification.

The idea of an exhaust riser is to get the injection point for raw water at least 12" above the waterlift muffler. You also want the injection point to be above the waterline if possible or you will have siphon problems. If you can't get the injection point above the waterline, then you need to put a loop in the raw water injection hose that goes above the waterline to a siphon break before it connects to the raw water injection point.

We still have that siphon break from the BOB engine. The hoses have not been put in yet. The top of the engine is just below the waterline. That manifold (the top portion) will be at the waterline or a smidge above.

Injection of raw water is approximately 6" below waterline.

The siphon loop is about 6" above the waterline.

Water lift muffler sits below the waterline though the hose goes above the waterline then dips down to the exit out the side of the boat. It's a small Vernier.

I do have a larger one from an Onan 8kw generator. That one was deemed "too large" .. it's about the size of a 5-gallon bucket. This one is about 3-gallon size.

Exact measurements can be made. I just put away my ruler and am writing, enjoying a spot of tea and relaxing.

Today was the day I wired the ammeters (two of the three) and hopefully tomorrow I can make the display, receive the shunt necessary for the last one and get that project finished.

When I installed the two 100 watt solar panels I added wire so that when I eventually get the final two, I've got the wire run in place. What I did not have was a solar controller large enough for the five panels.

Now I do. There's another thread about MPPT costing $70 from China. I'll be testing that soon. I don't know if it will work, but $70 versus $440 at Power Inverters and Solar Inverters for Home and Businesses - The Inverter Store for a Morningstar MPPT? Well, I opted for the less costly set-up.

And I'll soon find out if it works as stated. The ammeters should show me that information.

But jobs morph. This one started out as two ammeters and now will have four displays plus another little gizmo to satisfy my need to complicate stuff. I think it will be okay. We shall see.

Side note for the curious: Displays will include amps In, and amps Out for the solar panels, amps from Wind-genny (an Air-Breeze, with the newer motherboard) and also a Volt meter. Since I've got all that power right there I stole blatantly an idea from a friend on Sparrow.

He took the old screw caps from a battery charger and wired them near his nav table. That way he can test 12-volt stuff easily. I thought "that's a good idea" so I'm making my own. His is fancier than mine will be, though mine should work too.

As soon as I get that final shunt in, and the material for the mounting done too, I'll take more pictures. It's going to be nifty. I've got the article started for that project, but the doggone phone pictures... well, I'll get to it too after I get my new phone.

And yes, it concerns me that they are sending a duplicate of the one that went belly-up. Lovely. Just lovely.


If you decide in the long run to go with a riser, you can make a perfectly good one from black iron pipe and fittings available from any hardware store. You can buy a perfectly good injection elbow that matches the size of the iron pipe for under $200 (any engine brand will work). My Westerbeke 46 has a black iron riser that is in very good condition after 15 years. If I need to replace it, the pipe and fittings cost less than $20.
Thank you TDunn. It's good to know that there is back-up. A PlanB so to speak. Yes, of course I hope that this thing works as designed but if not, out-it-goes.

Having options is more important than ever, especially on these One-Off things. Still, the tried and true certainly has a lot of merit. The worrier in me wishes that was the original Plan A.

Such is life. It's a boat..


Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
The previous talk about an elbow costing $500 is/was probably coming from members w bigger boats overlooking the fact that this is on a much smaller boat than theirs. I think my elbow for my 36hp Yanmar was $160.

Did you get one of the stainless ones from ExhaustElbow.com ? I've read good things about them.


And TDunn I think she has a riser after her lift muffler. I have risers at both points but if one has a riser after the lift muffler I suspect the riser after the exhaust manifold is probably not necessary. Not sure.

I'm not certain if that's what it's called. The hose exiting the top of the water-lift muffler goes up above the waterline, then back down to the exit out the side of the boat.

But I think her helpers have a lot of time into the monster cooler/riser so if I were her I wouldn't just tell them to huck it out and put in some hardware store stuff.

A black iron riser that's gone 15 years???? Must be FW.
We are going to give this a shot. I'm not married to the stainless, but if it will function as intended, I'll be more than happy. Consensus here (locally) seems to be that this is a workable solution.

We shall see. And yes, I will report back. Without a doubt.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TDunn View Post
The loop after the waterlift is to limit water getting into the system from outside the boat. As I understand it, she has a side exhaust so that isn't so much of a problem as it is with an waterline exhaust on the transom where a following sea can force water into the exhaust system. In fact, if the side exhaust is 12" or more above the waterline no loop in the hose between the muffler and the exhaust port on the hull is needed.

Exit from boat is 12" above waterline. That's above the top of the water-lift but not by much. Thus the higher loop.

The waterlift muffler needs to be sized to accommodate all the water in the haust system up to the hump in the exhaust hose after the muffler. If the waterlift isn't big enough, water can potentially back up into the engine. The comment I made about having the raw water injection point 12" above the waterlift muffler is to minimize the risk of water backing up into the engine when the engine is shut down.

There were a lot of discussions about this issue. That's where the siphon break comes into play. As I recall there was talk too about the power of the engine to push water out of the larger water lift.

It's been quite some time since I heard that conversation. That and my hearing is not great. I miss stuff.


The need for a riser depends on the location of the engine relative to the waterlift muffler. For example, I have a riser on my sailboat because the engine sits quite low and the exhaust port on the engine is actually below the waterlift muffler. Thus I need a riser to get the injection elbow above the muffler. In contrast, I do not have a rised on my powerboat because the muffler is below the engine exhaust port by more than 12".
Thanks for the input. I'm keeping all options open.

Hopefully tomorrow the heat exchanger will be mounted. I'm not holding my breath though. I did see the wood for it, but it's not cut out yet.

I will if the last shunt arrives, finish the solar ammeters though. Presuming I get the plastic I need to hold the meters. I don't want to use wood with the power supply so ...

but that's another topic.


Thanks again fellows. For everything.
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Old 06-02-2015, 09:02 AM   #112
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Janice: What's happening? Couldn't find anything on your blog or here???
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Old 06-03-2015, 02:36 PM   #113
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The mechanic was here all day yesterday. The manifold is bolted on. The brace has not been made yet (just the mock-up) so that's not finished. Jerry (the shrimp boat next door is steel and the owner plus sons all weld) will cut the metal we need.

Betsy (the engine) is aligned and bolted down to her motor mounts.
The flexible coupler is in place.
Old step (from BOB engine) removed and new sole (from a part of the old pilothouse decking) is in place
Plumbing is being tweaked right now. The mechanic just arrived. My perko intake is 1.5" so he's adapting it down to the size required. I think that's 1.25"

What's going to happen is the pump will take raw water from the sea strainer and push it into the heat exchanger. From there the salt water will flow (be pushed) to a nipple just before the pipe for the exhaust gases. That will cool said pipe, then out the side of the boat.

The cooling system water (anti-freeze and distilled water) will flow through the heat exchanger, engine and manifold. That's a closed system -- no salt will touch the innards of Betsy.

Hoses must be added (not in yet) and the heat exchanger brace/bracket is being modified now. (I hear the saw going)

Last week I was told it would take two or three days to complete the job. That of course doesn't mean three days in a row. This is island time and they do have other jobs that have to be done as well.

Still, there is impetus to finish me up.

Most of the delays (all?!?) can be attributed to my complacency. Where I should have been the squeaky wheel, I didn't... I tend to be submissive so this is a trait that I have to overcome when dealing with outsiders, eh? Fussing and arguing aren't my style. Daddy used to say:

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

In any event, that's the update as of this minute. And I see Steve on his way back to Seaweed right now. Life is good.
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Old 06-11-2015, 08:15 AM   #114
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Anything new on Seaweed and Betsy?
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Old 06-11-2015, 03:02 PM   #115
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Betsy is bolted down to her motor mounts. The engine has been aligned. The new flexible coupler is in place. The brace for the heat exchanger is cut out and mounted to the forward bulkhead in the engine room.

Placement of that was very good. In my cabin there is a two foot square panel that is removable. It was for access to the impeller and adjusting the alternator belt but now? Well it's still there. The brace is on either side of the opening.

I did drill out in the trim the slots for the bolt heads to nestle in. Now the panel fits almost flush. I didn't have one in the exact right place so need to do that today.

There will be a piece of rubber (I have some) between the wooden support and the copper heat exchanger.

The mechanic was Supposed to be here one day this week. That won't happen.
According to owner three weeks ago I was told two to three days to completion. And one day per week on board Seaweed.

Well, last week was horrendously hot. Ditto previous time aboard. The mechanic, I was quite honestly afraid for -- he looked awful. And the next day was still not up to par.

When I said I'd ordered an A/C unit ($130 from Computer Parts, Laptops, Electronics, and More - Newegg.com -- great place incidentally) I suspect the mechanic said he would rather wait a week for a cool spot to work. They are "busy" but it's the temperature.

Really and truly I so royally fouled up Project Management this past winter I'm trying to correct my ways.
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Old 06-11-2015, 07:49 PM   #116
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You got an air conditioner for $130?
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Old 06-11-2015, 08:10 PM   #117
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Janice dear, you really need some decent help !!!! None of this is rocket science. You are not breaking new ground here, just throwin away $$$$. This entire project should have been done in less than a week with over the counter parts (read cheap). That "manifold" was a total waste of time and $ and the hydraulic pump wont last a day pumping saltwater. Just where are you anyway ?, I would almost volunteer my time to come and do this for you. From my perspective it is SO SIMPLE, but I do understand that for you it is not. Best o luck.
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Old 06-11-2015, 10:57 PM   #118
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You got an air conditioner for $130?
Yes. NewEgg used to be just electronics and computer hardware. Their website spoke Geek and nothing but -- back in the 1990's when I started shopping there. Now, well, now they sell all sorts of things, and for cheap.

Electronics, a/c units, plus computers and that sort of thing. Search is a bit balky but it does work. They had a Haier 5kw unit for $130. That was the least I could find anywhere online and included delivery.

Computer Parts, Laptops, Electronics, and More - Newegg.com

Wander around. It's not as much fun as ThinkGeek | Join In. Geek Out. but both are fun.

I bought a couple computers from NewEgg. A Win3.1 (dating myself, eh?) and WinMe, WinXP too, after the WinMe. Oh, and this one, a Win7 netbook by Toshiba.

I'm almost afraid for this one to die. I use FrontPage for my website (have been using it for twenty YEARS and understand it well) ... I don't want to have to fight with a new program so I'm hoping it will load into whatever's next without issue. I still have the codes that activate it so if I'm fortunate...
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Old 06-11-2015, 11:15 PM   #119
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Janice dear, you really need some decent help !!!! None of this is rocket science. You are not breaking new ground here, just throwin away $$$$. This entire project should have been done in less than a week with over the counter parts (read cheap). That "manifold" was a total waste of time and $ and the hydraulic pump wont last a day pumping saltwater. Just where are you anyway ?, I would almost volunteer my time to come and do this for you. From my perspective it is SO SIMPLE, but I do understand that for you it is not. Best o luck.
Thanks Kulas44... it is down to the wire. Two days (max) more according to the mechanic.

So, tell me why the hydraulic pump won't work. I think it's pushing the coolant and fresh water through the system, not salt. I've got to confirm that. There are two pumps. One for raw water and the other for fresh.

Raw water goes into the heat exchanger. From there via hose the salt water is injected just prior to that pipe exiting the manifold, then out the side of the boat.

Salt water's sole job is to cool the coolant and that pipe. Nothing else. No salt water goes into the engine.

Anti-freeze and water (a combination thereof) will go through the heat exchanger, then engine and back to the heat exchanger. It's a closed loop.

We are down to the wire on completion. Two days.
With the heat so bad I suspect the mechanic (his worker) is dragging feet until next week (Monday) when the A/C unit is to be delivered.

I paid for the original BOB engine swap. This one is 'on the house' so the money isn't there for him. No motivation to make this happen quickly. And too, I was terrible at Project Management.

I've got a couple books downloaded on that very subject. I'm seeing improvement in self.

Kicking myself isn't my style. Mistakes were made -- mine. And I'm moving forward. And too, the mechanic has operated without malice. In my mind, that makes all the difference in the world.

Stuff happens. Even bad stuff. However if no malice is involved, you move on. For instance, Son ... well, he had multiple surgeries. The first surgeon wasn't getting the results expected. A consultation with another doctor resulted in these words "This child's mouth is a case of malpractice if I've ever seen one" --

Yet we did not consult a lawyer and sue anyone. We did change doctors. ALL the records showed a severe to extremely severe cleft lip and palate. The doctor, though wonderful at boobs, was (in my view) out of his element in trying to fix a face of a child. He tried, and failed. Both structurally and visually.

However malice was not involved. So we moved on.

I'm taking the same view on the engine swap. The delays are awful on the face of it. Truly not good. However, there wasn't a level of malice involved. Stuff happens, and now I try to improve.

If Steve wants to wait another week so he can work without being in an oven, I can well appreciate that. After this much time another week won't kill me.

Thanks for asking.
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Old 06-12-2015, 06:44 AM   #120
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"I think it's pushing the coolant and fresh water through the system, not salt. I've got to confirm that. There are two pumps. One for raw water and the other for fresh."

The usual pump to circulate the engine coolant is the stock built in water pump.

The usual sea water pump is a simple impeller pump with a belt from the engine to push the sea water thru the heat exchanger and out the exhaust.

This is the Std setup. I have seen folks that used a good sized bait well pump , instead of the belted sea water pump with no bad effects.

Fast , OTS and no mounting hassles.

Had you asked the folks here BEFORE beginning , you might have saves big bucks , been underway long ago , and not have questions about reliability.

If you have another big project , asking for opinions first might pay.
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