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Old 05-21-2015, 03:16 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by FF View Post
What is the weight of this boat that will operate with a 18Hp peak engine rating?
Fully loaded (water and fuel) plus with Skipper and I aboard, 7000 pounds. And that was with the V8. According to VicProp I use just 8hp to reach hull speed.
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Old 05-21-2015, 03:23 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by healhustler View Post
I feel your pain, Janice. Dragging on with projects began for me about 3 years ago. I still have two that are unfinished after 2 of those years. I'd like to blame sources outside myself but in the end, it's me. Meanwhile, I'm working to complete the ones I have and not taking on any more till they are.
Isn't that the truth. In this day and age of blame shifting, well, I cannot do it. However today's meeting with the mechanic has left me feeling much happier.

Part of the problem was my drawings. I had the waterflow backwards and the place where the raw water enters way too high. Anyway, more in a bit.

You have no idea how much it has helped to know I've got back-up. Even not knowing, is okay if you know the questions to ask. And I didn't. But today, well I think I did okay.

More upcoming.
I did update the original webpage (Marinizing) so the pictures are better/more accurate. Water flow direction is key to keeping the air out, I think. More in a bit.

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Originally Posted by Capt.Bill11 View Post
Seems like there are a lot of true marine engine options out there. I'm baffled why you choose the route you did. And while I wish you good luck with it, I really suggest you rethink the water jacketed manifold thing. Even now.

Yanmar 3TNE 20 HP Complete Marine Diesel Engine Transmission | eBay
Thanks Capt.Bill. A true marine engine is a lot more expensive and I'm on a tight budget. The Kubota is paid for, so it's perfect. More on the stainless box. I had that wrong.

Basically, I'm catching up to Page 2. (I have my Control Panel preferences set to 50 posts per page.) Back in a flash.
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Old 05-21-2015, 03:27 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
I asked her about the Kubota's exhaust manifold, got no response I and sure don't like the two stud exhaust mount. Fine for a tractor (maybe not even for that) but not w heavy exhaust pieces hung on.

I agree w others .. needs a WC exhaust.
At the aft end of the engine just above the transmission/bell housing is a place to mount a bracket. It's been designed and we have a mock-up. The gent on the steel shrimper next to me will cut it from steel when he brings his tanks down to the dock.

The full weight will not ride on those two bolts. As you rightly point out, that would fail sooner rather than later. There will be a rubber pad too that can handle the heat and so no friction nor wear will occur.
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Old 05-21-2015, 03:33 PM   #64
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Janice,

Ever thought of having your clever friends convert that "riser" to an exhaust manifold? Looks like they've got the skills to do it! Then just tack on a typical marine exhaust elbow or riser made from HW store pipe fittings to the height suitable to your application. I want to see a water cooled exhaust manifold.

Most of us still don't know haw many cylinders the Kubota has.

The crossways riser/cooler was my idea so I can't complain much about it but I didn't know you were planing on running w an air cooled exhaust manifold. Do your shrimp boat friends know about that?
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Old 05-21-2015, 03:54 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry M View Post
I think this is what her hull looks like. Hp to tons of displacement?
I suspect that is one built after mine. Mine has absolutely zero ability to track. Basically, get her running on a perfect course, do not move the wheel one iota, no wind or current apparent and one minute later you can be going 180 degrees opposite to intended.

There is a bulb at the bow (basically under my feet in my forward cabin) and that throws tracking out the window. Plus I have no keel.

That's why I guess after testing mine they added the keel. I've got a skeg (1/4" thick stainless by 3")

I've tried tying Algae (the dink) to the far corner aft and that sometimes will give me a few minutes without steering. Mostly though, this boat is steered. Ugh.

And Daddy used to come up to the fly bridge of our boat. He never looked ahead. He would look aft and wanted to see a dead straight line. I'm embarrased by mine. Fortuantely Seaweed throws no wake so the white bubbles we had with ours isn't shown but I know. It's bad. Sigh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
Ski,
But if Janice can swing another engine w WC exhaust I'd be
cheer'in. If I were her I'd be look'in at Craig's List and e-bay while getting around a bit w an old OB on the swimstep or similar.
You know you do have a point. There is a simplicity to a four bolt tune-up. And I did seriously consider an outboard on the transom.

One of the Schuckers -- the green one shown previously, when she was red white and blue had a 5hp on an extension as a "get-home" motor. I believe five is too small and would (with that million bucks) consider a 9.9.

The couple on Manatee have an outboard tender that they have set up as their Get-Home engine. I was very impressed with Ted and Sarah's stuff. Check out that article for more details on how they did it.

Janice142 article Manatee Moves

Oh, but for Seaweed, I'd opt for one of those outboard extensions like the sailboats have.

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Originally Posted by ranger42c View Post
FWIW, for Janice's benefit, if useful...

There are at least 7 different Yanmar 3TNE engines. Looks like this is the smallest, the 3TNE68. Our genset engine is the next size up, a 3TNE74, but the fact it's in a generator means it's not immediately geared (heh... get it? ) for propulsion.

There are also at least three 4TNEs.

-Chris
Mine is a Kubota 720-40 according to the mechanic today. Next post covers what I learned.
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Old 05-21-2015, 04:16 PM   #66
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Would it be better to sell the tractor engine and get something like this?

20 HP marine diesel engine

or

Yanmar diesel 4tne92
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Old 05-21-2015, 04:39 PM   #67
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Oh, and she's three cylinders.
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Old 05-21-2015, 05:05 PM   #68
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What I had wrong in the original article was the direction of the water flow. Additionally, where the raw water enters the exhaust pipe was in error.

Here's the updated picture:


This morning I had an interesting conversation with the mechanic and the fellow who has this motor in his tractor.

I'd directed him to the webpage with your comments. You are far better at articulating what was perceived wrong than I would be so I let your advice speak for me. Thank you. Thank you a million times.

This is what I learned:

#1) The diagram water flow was wrong. The water will push into the tank and then flow from there back to the heat exchanger. That's why the tank will always be full. Air will not be an issue.

The heat exchanger will be mounted above the manifold/riser.

A separate water pump will push the water in.


What needs to be determined however is rate of flow. Too much and the engine will be too cool. Too little and the reverse is true. The mechanics have been discussing a valve set-up for regulating the speed fluid flows through the box.

Also, they state that once set, I should be good-to-go. No further adjustments required.

Additionally, rather than have the raw water spray in just after the top elbow, it will be just prior to that exit pipe on the far right. I have been assured that this is okay.

They seem quite adamant that this is functional and workable. I did not (yet!) ask why an elbow such as Eric has was not used. That will come tomorrow. For today, life is again sweet.

The rain is falling and that means the shrimp boat is not running their compressor and grinding at rust. They are doing a major overhaul, tearing out an ice maker and installing a freezer. The ice maker worked fine all winter, but not in the summertime.

Anyway, with many many thanks. I'll will continue to keep you updated, though nothing will happen to my boat until next week. They are busy tomorrow and Saturday, and even expanded their workforce to add another employee. That's a good thing.

And with your help they know eyes are on them. That cannot do anything but help. Thank you for being in my corner. I appreciate that more than you can imagine.
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Old 05-21-2015, 06:17 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryM View Post

It looks like the designers felt the boat needed quite a bit more power, and Janice's website even refers to a GM V8 powerplant which at a minimum would have been 190hp or so. Even with diesel power, the numbers point to a SD hull with sufficient power to run considerably faster than S/L 1.34.

My take is that the Kubota 18hp diesel is going to be on the small side, possibly even too small, but should work if the cruising speed is kept below 6 kts. Conditions like head seas, wind and current, even a dirty prop or bottom, could easily drive the power requirement beyond 18hp though.
I have a copy of the brochure from my boat. It says: "The little cruiser, according to her designer, will comfortably jog along at 7-8 knots on as little as 30 horsepower, inboard or outboard power. But for the skipper in a hurry, a 260 horsepower Volvo inboard is expected to push her along at a speedy 30-40 miles per hour."

Well, whoever wrote that was taking some serious pharmaceuticals. With the tide the fastest she ever went was just over 7 with the big gas engine. Schuckers have transom squat -- it's all over the Schucker list and cures for same.

At least one boat was extended. This is one of the 44's as I recall though it might have been a 40'er. One of the 44'ers had bilge keels added too. They roll.

Seaweed's flat bottom means I rock twice then stop. Sometimes thrice, but seldom. She does pitch. I'm one of those blessed with a rock gut so being seasick is not an issue. Knock Teak.

These were as you saw created from the molds of the bigger boats. My bowsprit was the 40'er. It was a good attempt at staying liquid. Original price for the boat was $24,900. A version (two built as I understand it) of the boat without the galley cabin -- your basic open fisherman was offered at $16,900.

With her full beam galley cabin there's an amazing amount of room for a 23' boat. She's open and airy. I am blessed indeed.

It's a boat though. There's always something that needs fixing, or improving. That's the fun stuff, when the view changes.

Today I listened too and watched a few boats heading out to cross the Gulf. They were discussing going 20 mph. That's rocketing -- and they sounded like they were having a blast.

I like five knots. No wake, just a tiny ripple. With the BOB engine (an MD2) at just past half throttle I did five so I expect the same with the tractor.

And aren't diesels supposed to be run hard? Not brutally hard, but with a load? That was what used to be. Has that changed?

One thing I have noticed is how much things have changed. What was once standard or best policy is not the same today. Rules are different... heck, when I was a kid we opened the bridge by blowing the horn three times. Try that today!

I'm rambling. I'l hush now.
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Old 05-21-2015, 06:55 PM   #70
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Quote:
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I have a copy of the brochure from my boat. It says: "The little cruiser, according to her designer, will comfortably jog along at 7-8 knots on as little as 30 horsepower, inboard or outboard power. But for the skipper in a hurry, a 260 horsepower Volvo inboard is expected to push her along at a speedy 30-40 miles per hour."

Well, whoever wrote that was taking some serious pharmaceuticals. With the tide the fastest she ever went was just over 7 with the big gas engine. Schuckers have transom squat -- it's all over the Schucker list and cures for same.
Janice,

I was only trying to back into the numbers based upon a couple of listings that had diesels and fuel consumption numbers published. You, on the other hand, have real-world experience with your boat.

Yes, I can remember one of my sailboats displaced about 8,000 and with a Volvo MD7A (13.5hp) had no trouble making its 7 kt. hull speed, but it was an easily driven boat. I can remember one year we drained and replaced the fuel because it was getting old and we weren't using it fast enough . . . . .
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Old 05-21-2015, 09:42 PM   #71
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Larry,
Looks to me like the Shucker is a planing hull on the heavy side w a big keel hung on the bottom. Kinda like some other trawlers.
Hard to imagine it w a GM V8 though.
I still like the idea of an extension. Perhaps would be easier if it was a wood boat. Dosn't mean one couldn't put a wood extension on it. Could even have a water tight bulkhead like small boats that nest and are called "take aparts". If one did that and used an OB the fuel and all else could be in the extension. How-a-bout hinging the extension and swing it up to moor in a shorter slip? Would be very quiet and roomy. Quite manerverable too.

Think of how simple life would be if we could power our trawlers w an OB. We once had a discussion on that. Prop may come out of the water at times ... mostly bad times.

OK I'm through having crazy dreams.
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Old 05-22-2015, 01:38 AM   #72
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Larry,
Looks to me like the Shucker is a planing hull on the heavy side w a big keel hung on the bottom. Kinda like some other trawlers.
Hard to imagine it w a GM V8 though.
I still like the idea of an extension. Perhaps would be easier if it was a wood boat. Dosn't mean one couldn't put a wood extension on it. Could even have a water tight bulkhead like small boats that nest and are called "take aparts". If one did that and used an OB the fuel and all else could be in the extension. How-a-bout hinging the extension and swing it up to moor in a shorter slip? Would be very quiet and roomy. Quite manerverable too.

Think of how simple life would be if we could power our trawlers w an OB. We once had a discussion on that. Prop may come out of the water at times ... mostly bad times.

OK I'm through having crazy dreams.
One of my friends suggested I tow a barge with my stuff.

As far as the outboard goes, I did give it serious consideration. An outboard (new) comes with a five year warranty. Considering it "disposable" the cost would be $50 a month (give or take) plus fuel...

And I definitely like the idea of a get-home motor, which an outboard would provide. The red, white and blue Schucker with the 5hp on the transom has a 70hp diesel as primary. She was imron'ed dark green and sold for a tidy profit.

Originally offered at $13k in 2008 then sold in 2013 for $20+ (or listed at/not certain of the sale price)
That boat is a lot more Yacht-y than mine. It's got more teak inside and looks prettier. It's not set up to live off the grid, or wasn't at time of sale. She went to Canada as I recall.

We could all use 3' more, after a time. I just figure out what I can get rid of instead of that. It's easier.

And Larry, I wasn't questioning the data from YachtWorld. I thought the article quoting 30-40mph was simply, well, perhaps on a trailer but otherwise it was not going to happen.

When I ran across it I put it in my logbook. It still tickles my fancy. I am easily amused. Today I watched a baby sheepshead swim around and around a piling. Going like crazy fast some times and others slow and meandering up and down. She was perhaps 1.5 inches long and had the telltale vertical stripes.

There are a lot of baby shrimp by the boat too. And crabs. Life abounds...

But I digress... I discovered Schuckers in about 2005 and fell hard for them. There were only six built. That green diesel that now resides in Canada was for sale at the same times as my Seaweed. I chose Seaweed because logistically she was easier to get to/acquire. Her asking price was less too.

As far as planing hulls, I don't think so. She's not got the flare for lift. There is a bulbous area forward that is not planing -- at least not to my understanding.

Schematic:
and my girl:

and my girl:


It's my belief that bulbous part is the cause of the tracking difficulties. The picture doesn't show it well though.

And yes, of course Im always thinking about ways to make my Seaweed better. That's fun.
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Old 05-22-2015, 02:13 AM   #73
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Janice, I think the cooling water amount will not affect the cooling of the engine as the engine has a thermostat. Too cool and the thermostat just closes and the coolant will not circulate into the heat exchanger, which is fine. At idle there will not be enough heat to open the thermostat much. All you need to do is provide cooling if the thermostat opens fully and the coolant circulates in the heat exchanger. The amount of raw water going through the cooler need not be throttled by a valve.

I'm sure if I'm out to lunch here the denizens will speak up.
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Old 05-22-2015, 09:05 AM   #74
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...It's like when Son was small. His surgeon was "the" doctor who wrote the books on how to do the surgery. Well, results were less than spectacular and no one in the Miami area would suggest any other solutions. Finally I took him eight hours away to another physician of equal stature in a related specialty who had his own sense of direction. I followed that one and though not perfect, it was better.

[For the curious: Son was born with a severe bi-lateral cleft lip and palate. In the 21 years he lived (had a heart attack 13 April 2002) he spoke clearly and perfectly two days. Then the surgery ripped loose. There were multi-pronged efforts to fix the birth defects and related issues, vision, hearing, speech, etc. And I loved him just as he was...]

Anyway, that is probably far more detail than you wanted, but there you have it. I am open to change. And I do welcome suggestions.

Janice, an aside for a moment, I have to say this.

The more I read and learn about you, your life, your independent nature, and follow your adventures (or misadventures as applicable-lol), the more I come to respect and admire you!

Thanks for sharing all you do.
Carry on lady!

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Old 05-22-2015, 09:17 AM   #75
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^^ Second that. Well put.

Janice, that pump in the photo looks like a hydraulic pump, not a water pump. You need a direct drive or belt drive rubber impeller bronze sea water pump, the engine has its own coolant circulating pump.
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Old 05-22-2015, 09:38 AM   #76
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^^ Second that. Well put.

Janice, that pump in the photo looks like a hydraulic pump, not a water pump. You need a direct drive or belt drive rubber impeller bronze sea water pump, the engine has its own coolant circulating pump.
Ski,

That is what I thought too, but I just ran across this on Janice's website. It appears they have mounted a rather substantial looking seawater pump on the Kubota already. Not sure what the 'hydraulic pump' is/was for.

Patrick and Steve move Betsy (the Kubota 18hp) into the pilothouse via a chain hoist.

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Old 05-22-2015, 10:48 AM   #77
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Larry,
Wish the pic was of the other side .. then I could see the exhaust manifold. I'm blown away by that pump under the injection pump. There's a sizable whacked looking plate behind the pump ... looks like somebody tacked it on. As a seawater pump it's way too large for my considerably larger 4cyl Mitsu. Must have been taking advantage of a freebee. At least it's geared down some. And small clams will probably pass through the impeller. As I recall her heat exchanger is really large too. She could have a "Y" and pump half that water overboard. Pump probably takes 3hp to run.

Sure glad it turned out to be a three cyl engine. And a three that small will probably be kind of a sweet little engine. It's so pretty white she can claim it's a Lugger at trawler Fest. Even if she dosn't fool anybody at Trawler Fest that white is sure pretty. My flat black Mitsu looked like it had done 20 years in the bilge when I came down from Alaska and first laid eyes on it.

Reading Ski's comment "Janice, that pump in the photo looks like a hydraulic pump, not a water pump. You need a direct drive or belt drive rubber impeller bronze sea water pump, the engine has its own coolant circulating pump." Yup .. it does look kinda odd. Don't see the usual offset. Could it be that one of it's primary purposes in life was to power some hydraulic equip on the tractor? Well Janice you're now up to having the mother of all bow thrusters.

Oh and re the hull ......... planing.
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Old 05-22-2015, 12:07 PM   #78
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^^ Second that. Well put.

Janice, that pump in the photo looks like a hydraulic pump, not a water pump. You need a direct drive or belt drive rubber impeller bronze sea water pump, the engine has its own coolant circulating pump.
One of the things the boys were adamant about is that no salt water ever enter my engine. That is to pump fresh water through the cooling system as I understand it.

I'm not quite clear on why the water is being pumped up through the stainless manifold/riser. Okay, that will keep air from sitting in that pocket however as I understand it most of these heat exchangers are above so pumping up seems odd.

If I were a suspicious person I'd think that the mechanics read the comments and re-thought the water flow direction and about the potential for an air pocket at the top...

In any event, I have options and will nail down a completion date today. The shop is busy and next door the shrimp boat is chipping away at a year's worth of rust.

Rust never sleeps.

And between the air compressor, grinders, and hammers, well, my afternoon nap is not going to happen today. It's going to get ugly around here soon. I need my beauty sleep.

As for the paint job... well, I asked for that. I want to be able to spot leaks and oozes before they are major issues. For the life of me I don't know why more engines are not painted white simply so we can see what's going on.

Of course if I had Coot's bilge and set-up my engine could be any color. His is amazing. Every time I see it I get a serious case of bilge envy...
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Old 05-22-2015, 12:31 PM   #79
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Must have missed the picture earlier. That is one cool little engine for Seaweed.
Love the white!

This project will turn out OK and will run fine for years, I'll bet.
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Old 05-22-2015, 12:32 PM   #80
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I've inserted my replies in bold text, including pictures. And thanks for your responses. I'm learning more about this engine and that's a good thing.

Quote:
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Larry,
Wish the pic was of the other side .. then I could see the exhaust manifold.

Port side from forward. That black hose down at the bottom center connects to my oil pan. Oil changes ought to be easier, eh?



and now the hose has been replaced by a bigger more sturdy one



and finally looking forward from the galley bilge. You can see where the brace will be mounted (lower right above the motor mount)



For a 23' boat I'd say I've got engine access pretty well nailed. It was one of the Absolute Requirements when I went boat shopping. I'm small and have done a lot of work (under supervision of course) merely because I can get into places a man cannot. And that I'm light enough to be dragged out when I get stuck helps too.

I'm blown away by that pump under the injection pump. There's a sizable whacked looking plate behind the pump ... looks like somebody tacked it on. As a seawater pump it's way too large for my considerably larger 4cyl Mitsu. Must have been taking advantage of a freebee. At least it's geared down some. And small clams will probably pass through the impeller. As I recall her heat exchanger is really large too. She could have a "Y" and pump half that water overboard. Pump probably takes 3hp to run.

Sure glad it turned out to be a three cyl engine. And a three that small will probably be kind of a sweet little engine. It's so pretty white she can claim it's a Lugger at trawler Fest. Even if she dosn't fool anybody at Trawler Fest that white is sure pretty. My flat black Mitsu looked like it had done 20 years in the bilge when I came down from Alaska and first laid eyes on it.

Shhh. Don't tell. Betsy (the Kubota) can be a Lugger if she wants.

Reading Ski's comment "Janice, that pump in the photo looks like a hydraulic pump, not a water pump. You need a direct drive or belt drive rubber impeller bronze sea water pump, the engine has its own coolant circulating pump." Yup .. it does look kinda odd. Don't see the usual offset. Could it be that one of it's primary purposes in life was to power some hydraulic equip on the tractor? Well Janice you're now up to having the mother of all bow thrusters.

Oh and re the hull ......... planing.
Thanks so much. For some reason I cannot find a picture of her starboard side. I'll remedy that when the pounding next door stops.
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