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Old 05-20-2015, 12:08 PM   #41
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Yes my bad.
National M E it is.
Even the big fishboats have their exhaust systems made by NME. Very well respected company.
The $750 price I mentioned was from 10 years ago you should know.
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Old 05-20-2015, 02:56 PM   #42
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In the Philippines using automotive diesel engines in boats is done all the time and is consider normal. I have an engine from a front end loader built in the late 60s and also have an automotive transmission in our boat which has a clutch and three forward gears.
Really what I wanted to say is this living simple can get pretty complicated.
Best of luck on your project and thinking out of the box.
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Old 05-20-2015, 03:56 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by janice142 View Post
Time wise Chris? Too much.

The engine must be used. I simply cannot replace/switch that part. The peripherals however? I'm not tied to anything.

...

As far as the engine goes: I'm using the Kubota. That's a certainty -- can't afford another and this one is paid for. The marinization is the sticky spot. Nothing is written in stone though of course I would prefer to use what I've got rather than spendmore money that I do not have.

Fair enough, that makes it easier to only focus on ideas that'll further your goal.

Have to admit, I got nothin'. Dunno so much about how to marinize an engine from scratch.

The only thought I had been wondering about earlier -- and the reason I asked -- was whether it'd still be feasible to get an already-marinized version (I think you sad Beta?), or another likely already-marinized engine from somewhere (somebody said used, not yet rebuilt Yanmars) and pay for some of it by flogging the Kubota.

Off the table... Full speed ahead!



No doubt in my mind it can be made to work. I've got a 22-hp Yanmar in my tractor, and it runs like a champ. I'd expect it'd be similar to recycle that rascal into a boat like yours!

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Old 05-20-2015, 07:53 PM   #44
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Fair enough, that makes it easier to only focus on ideas that'll further your goal.

Have to admit, I got nothin'. Dunno so much about how to marinize an engine from scratch.
I don't either Chris, and I'm not having fun. Okay, maybe a bit because I do like to understand how things work. It's just the process has been so drawn out...

At present I'm doing some serious pondering. There's been a lot of information to process (thanks to TF'ers) and tomorrow is the day of reckoning with the mechanic.

I sent him links to my article with the notes from folks here added to the piece. And on Thursday will listen to his response. The offer privately of an exhaust manifold plays into it too. Truly, I just want this job done.

Project Management is a definite skill set I lack. I've let this slide all too long and been complacent when I should have been a squeaky wheel. However, I am learning.

Wish me luck. Prayers too would not be unwelcome. And for the folks who are shopping through my Amazon links, wow and thank you! This month so far is the best ever (since 2005) so I'm grateful. Very, very grateful.

Thank you. I am humbled by the kindnesses and the education you've been willing to impart. It's been far more helpful than you can possibly know.

Tomorrow I'll let 'cha know what the fallout is. Argh.
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Old 05-20-2015, 08:00 PM   #45
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Good luck Janice. Hope everything works out.

What are these Amazon links? Stuff for sale?
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Old 05-20-2015, 09:03 PM   #46
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Good luck Janice. Hope everything works out.

What are these Amazon links? Stuff for sale?
Oh me too cardude01. So much so! I've let this go on far too long and could kick myself. I was supposed to be in the Christmas Boat Parade if that tells you anything. Argh.

I need to bone up on my Project Management skills. I used to have them. Heck, I was a manager decades ago. Just writing about the problems has solidified my resolve though. That's helpful too.

I placed Amazon links (a button in the top left corner of every page) on my site. When someone uses my link to buy anything on the Amazon site, a small amount is deposited into my bank account.

Prices are the same whether you to use my link go directly to Amazon.

Anything bought through my link helps. Even one cent books count toward the total items, though the free Kindle books don't.
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Old 05-20-2015, 09:57 PM   #47
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I feel your pain, Janice. Dragging on with projects began for me about 3 years ago. I still have two that are unfinished after 2 of those years. I'd like to blame sources outside myself but in the end, it's me. Meanwhile, I'm working to complete the ones I have and not taking on any more till they are.
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Old 05-21-2015, 06:34 AM   #48
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What is the weight of this boat that will operate with a 18Hp peak engine rating?
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Old 05-21-2015, 07:00 AM   #49
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I don't either Chris, and I'm not having fun. Okay, maybe a bit because I do like to understand how things work. It's just the process has been so drawn out...

At present I'm doing some serious pondering. There's been a lot of information to process (thanks to TF'ers) and tomorrow is the day of reckoning with the mechanic.

I sent him links to my article with the notes from folks here added to the piece. And on Thursday will listen to his response. The offer privately of an exhaust manifold plays into it too. Truly, I just want this job done.

It'll get better, as you proceed.

A thought did occur to me. You mentioned in your blog that there are variations of Kubota engines that have been marinized by Beta and Universal.

Are any of the Beta or Universal versions based on your particular Kubota? Or a very similar Kubota tractor model?

If so, might it be that some of the Beta or Universal marinization parts could be incorporated into your installation? Which in turn might mean you maybe need to invent fewer solutions?

-Chris
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Old 05-21-2015, 07:58 AM   #50
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Seems like there are a lot of true marine engine options out there. I'm baffled why you choose the route you did. And while I wish you good luck with it, I really suggest you rethink the water jacketed manifold thing. Even now.

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Old 05-21-2015, 08:51 AM   #51
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What is the weight of this boat that will operate with a 18Hp peak engine rating?
You're think'in 18hp is not enough I'm guessing.

Not even close to a FD hull so I'll bet It'll need about 8hp per ton and She can't be over 3 tons. So worst case scenario is that she's going to be a little underpowered but she probably dosn't run but 5 or 6 knots. Willy takes 18hp to make 6 knots and weighs 8 tons. Six times the weight (but FD) so maybe the Shucker will happily go 5.5 knots on about 10hp and close to 6 knots on 12 or 14. But the skipper may not be too happy w the little Kubota work'in fairly hard. That would probably work OK but a 27hp 3GM 3cyl would be a lot better bet. But those DI Yanmars are noisy though.

As Bill has shown there are plenty of these engines out there.

I asked her about the Kubota's exhaust manifold, got no response I and sure don't like the two stud exhaust mount. Fine for a tractor (maybe not even for that) but not w heavy exhaust pieces hung on.

I agree w others .. needs a WC exhaust.
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Old 05-21-2015, 09:50 AM   #52
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Large marine engines from the industrial pile are usually worth overhauling.

Farm implement or light duty truck engines usually need to be removed to be rebuilt , but the many commercial rebuilders can keep the costs down.They will last as long as when new if done properly.

Longer if a good shop does a blueprint job.

To my mind a used lawnmower motor or small "marine diesel" rebuild is seldom worth the effort as so few have the expertise that the job is easily botched.

Esp if the boat yard "mechanic" not the brand dealer does the work.

********

3 HP per ton works for most cruising boats although the large relative house area in small boat makes them more breeze sensitive.

There are 3 Albin 25 in FL at a dock, most run happily at -1/2 gph ,,,7 or 8 HP .

However they do not have much superstructure, and are sleek like a sail boat.

With the low cost Euro, here is a direction for the very adventurous.

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Old 05-21-2015, 10:38 AM   #53
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I think this is what her hull looks like. Hp to tons of displacement?


EDIT: Shipping weight of this vessel was listed at 4,082 kg.
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Old 05-21-2015, 12:11 PM   #54
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That looks like a hard chine semi displacement hull with a deep probably ballasted keel. Both design factors- SD and deep keel work against efficiency. My guess is about 5 hp per ton. So at about 4.5 US tons it will take 20-25 hp.

You can probably pull 12 hp continuously out of that Kubota with out too much noise or stress. That will probably get you to a S/L of 1.0.

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Old 05-21-2015, 01:30 PM   #55
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An 18hp Kubota I think is a two cyl. Man those twos run rough as cobs. Three cyl much much smoother, hopefully it's a three.
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Old 05-21-2015, 01:50 PM   #56
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Ski,
Are the twins w a 360 or 180 crank?
I remember the old British motorcycle twins... All had 360 cranks so the pistons rose and fell together. They had a large and heavy counterweight and were remarkably smooth at low speeds but the'do buzz your fingernails off at high Rs.

In came the Japanise twins .. all w 180 cranks. Relatively smooth at high revs but grab a handfull at the bottom end and you'd be sure you were riding a single. Their power pulses were like this .. .. .. .. where the 360 crank was . . . .

Three lungers weren't that smooth on motorcycles as there wasn't' much mass to bolt the engine to. But in boats the triples do very well I think.

Yup I'd be think'in that Shucker is not very efficient. I'd want 30hp. The Shucker would make an excellent subject for a hull extension .. at the stern and turned up like a FD hull. Turned up clear to the WL 15hp would be fine but 24hp and turned half way up may be better. Turned all the way up would be extremely speed limiting .. like a brick wall at 5.5 knots. But she'd be a better boat. Atkin designed a boat w a flat bottom very similar to the Shuck and spec'ed 9hp. She had a very easy rockered bottom though and the Shucker lacks that.

But if Janice can swing another engine w WC exhaust I'd be
cheer'in. If I were her I'd be look'in at Craig's List and e-bay while getting around a bit w an old OB on the swimstep or similar.
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Old 05-21-2015, 01:57 PM   #57
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I think the Kubota twins are 180deg cranks, but not 100% on that. So pistons "sorta" cancel, but firing intervals are wildly off. Idling low they go: da da....da da... etc, hallmark of the 180 crank. Just like the bikes.

Only twins on the planet should be two strokes.....
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Old 05-21-2015, 02:29 PM   #58
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I asked her about the Kubota's exhaust manifold, got no response I and sure don't like the two stud exhaust mount. Fine for a tractor (maybe not even for that) but not w heavy exhaust pieces hung on.

Looks like Janice responded in her blog to a couple of your comments... not sure which, or whether relevant to the mount...

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Old 05-21-2015, 02:31 PM   #59
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It is raining this morning so I had a few extra minutes to kill. I have been following this thread and decided to check the old "interweb" for more information about the Schucker Gulf Packet 23 and how they were powered.

First I ran across this in a listing:
"This vessel is a Schucker "Gulf Packet" built in Bradenton, Fl by a company better known for it's rugged 40' to 50' cruising motorsailers. In the early 80's James Schucker, the designer/builder, was faced with declining sales due to soft economy and high production costs of his large motorsailers and trawlers; faced with imminent closing of the facility and remaining stockpiles of raw materials and hardware, he designed the 23' Gulf Packet as a last try at a niche market. Six of these craft were built to the same high standards, and using the same hardware, as their larger sisters. Rugged, roomy, seaworthy and unique, four were gas-powered, and two had small diesels. But they were quite expensive for their length...and no further boats were built. The company closed it's doors."
"Engine Type: Single Inboard, Engine Make: Peugeot, Engine Model: Indenor"

Then, this from another listing:
"Schucker 24' Gulf Packet, 1983. S-Pisces Peugeot 4-60, 400hrs."

Finally, this from a current Schucker Gulf Packet 23 listing:
"Originally gas-powered, boat was apparently repowered in 1987 with a Pisces Indamar 4 cyl 62hp FWC diesel. Access through pilothouse deck hatches, and access hatch fwd. Engine uses glowplug preheating and starts instantly. It does not burn oil, nor has it ever overheated. 3000 hrs. Fuel consumption averages about 0.8 gal - hr @ hull speed, 6 kts. Max speed 7 kts. Fuel system consists of two wing tanks, P & S aft, about 40 gal each, supplying fuel via dedicated demand electric transfer pumps, through separate primary fuel filter - water separators, to a common 12 gal 'day tank'. The day tank feeds the engine through a Racor secondary filter and engine-mounted tertiary filter via electric lift pump; fuel return to day tank only. This system is what you would expect to find on large commercial vessels, and is extraordinary on a 23' trawler. All fuel passes through three independent filter systems! Total capacity of approximately 92 gal yields a cruising range of about 600 nm."

From this limited amount of information, I concluded that some were powered by 60-62hp Peugeot-based marine diesels. Assuming 18-20hp/gal/hr they likely produced 14.4-16hp to drive the boat at 'hull speed' which I assume is S/L 1.34. That would mean the LWL is around 20' which looks about right. At 6 kts, that Kubota would be working pretty hard when factoring in the transmission and bearing losses. Further, the prop would have to be pretty much optimal for the combo.

It looks like the designers felt the boat needed quite a bit more power, and Janice's website even refers to a GM V8 powerplant which at a minimum would have been 190hp or so. Even with diesel power, the numbers point to a SD hull with sufficient power to run considerably faster than S/L 1.34.

My take is that the Kubota 18hp diesel is going to be on the small side, possibly even too small, but should work if the cruising speed is kept below 6 kts. Conditions like head seas, wind and current, even a dirty prop or bottom, could easily drive the power requirement beyond 18hp though.

Just $0.02 worth of food for thought.

Best of luck Janice!
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Old 05-21-2015, 02:52 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Capt.Bill11 View Post
Seems like there are a lot of true marine engine options out there. I'm baffled why you choose the route you did. And while I wish you good luck with it, I really suggest you rethink the water jacketed manifold thing. Even now.

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FWIW, for Janice's benefit, if useful...

There are at least 7 different Yanmar 3TNE engines. Looks like this is the smallest, the 3TNE68. Our genset engine is the next size up, a 3TNE74, but the fact it's in a generator means it's not immediately geared (heh... get it? ) for propulsion.

There are also at least three 4TNEs.

-Chris
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