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Old 05-19-2015, 08:09 AM   #21
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The manifold, water cooled or not, makes no difference as to hours of useage or ambient temp. As to winter weather the watercooled manifold would actually help by adding mass and waste heat to the system. The only reason to not use a watercooled exhaust manifold is to try to save $$$$. Bad idea.
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Old 05-19-2015, 10:05 AM   #22
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As for getting the best power for her boat David's idea is supreme.
There must be millions of sailboats in FL so little diesels like Yanmars no doubt are plentiful and cheap. I see them all the time on Craig's List even here in the PNW.

But doing something one's self holds adventures and attractions not found in traditional methods and equipment. The satisfaction of accomplishment by doing things like powering a small boat and getting acceptable results by methods and routes not commonly followed by traditional ways and established industrial methods.
I remember seeing years ago numerous big rowboats powered by lawnmower engines .. Sometimes w belt driven propeller shafts. In Alaska I've see Eskimos pick up an OB discarded by white men and found behind a log on a beach. You'd find them soon flying across the bay w bits of wood or ivory substituted for metal parts. Working fine for awhile .. probably not for long. But telling the Eskimo he's not doing it right won't even put a dent in his smile.

But learning the best and most propper way to do things holds it's potential satisfaction too. The expression "proud of a job well done" comes to mind. Certian personality types lean toward naturally looking for tried and proven ways.

I digress as usual but Janice has options to do it her way .. whichever that is. Just getting the job done w the best possible results would IMO be to follow Daves recomendation of finding used and installing it in the best traditional manner.

She asked for our opinions. I couldn't even figure out what the thing in her picture was for awhile. I was looking for pipes leading to cyl head exhaust ports on the side of the head of an engine at first. Interesting shape I thought and it was an instant puzzle. It was fun figuring it out. Perhaps it is a fun project fot her or she may be frustrated just trying to beat the high buck traditional route. There's a little inventor in most all of of us that needs to come out.

Where Janice is on this curve I don't know. But I'm sure we won't find her at either end but somewhere in the middle. Perhaps she posted it basically as probable entertainment for us. She probably knew we'd jump on it and flood the thread w ideas. So now we've had our fun and she has more options from Gerr and doing it according to "Hoyle" and best engineering practices to totally "wing'in it" and following the call of "I've never seen it done that way but I'll bet it will work". The latter opening the door to more unknowns, trouble, fun and perhaps even grief.

David's idea to do some shopping and perhaps bargaining to acquire the best fully engineered unit (probably would include the gear) would be best IMO but still gear ratios re prop clearance, exhaust routing, engine mounting ect would present considerable DIY engineering possibilities. And likely food for thread talk.

But now that she has this tractor engine David's option may no longer be open. Janice probably put the repower question to us too late. So it's just a question of riser. Still food for ideas.

But if digging out of a hole getting Gerr's book is bound to help.
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Old 05-19-2015, 10:18 AM   #23
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Old 05-19-2015, 02:10 PM   #24
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some terrific feedback from willy, dave, kulas and the others. my hunch is that she got a decent deal on the kubota diesel and that the locals in carrabelle are trying to make it work for her as best they know how. i really hope that they know what they are doing. this is the SECOND diesel engine replacement that they have done for her in less than a year and i suspect that her pocketbook and her heart could not stand another failure.
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Old 05-19-2015, 02:10 PM   #25
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Bonefish Charley told me about the new boys taking out charters for bonefish in the Bahamas. He said "day tink day no cause day dont no e'nuff ta no day dont no". My thoughts are that other than being absolutely beautifull and very educational, this "riser" will turn out to be only that. I cant recall the many times that I have done projects that turned out to be total failures, mostly because I dont want to recall. Lots of times they took on a life of there own, going off on a tangent. Some were expensive past 5 figures. Nowadays I tend to look at a boat system and think "Why is it done like that" then do a lot of research. Its usually done that way for a reason. And, along the way during my research, I find lots of other ways to do it. Knowledge is the key. There is no end to folks that will take your money and do whatever you ask (some good some not so good) and not really care if what you are trying to do is workable.
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Old 05-19-2015, 04:14 PM   #26
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I have refrained from commenting on that beautiful piece of stainless for fear of offending Janice and throwing a wet blanket on what is an interesting exercise. But Eric's kind words have given me some cover, so here goes:

Marine engine builders learned a long time ago to use a water jacketed exhaust manifold (although Yanmar had to relearn that lesson with their BMW derived BY line of marine engines). If you don't water jacket that hot piece of metal, it's gaskets will fail, it will heat up your engine room and it may become a fire hazard. Very few builders don't water jacket them.

I appreciate that Ski has set up small diesels with non jacketed manifolds and they worked. Non jacketed manifolds might work in a big engine room with lots of clearance and ventilation. But for my money it just isn't worth the risk. Again ask Yanmar how their BYs worked out for them. There is a reason that the two biggest small marine diesel manufacturers use jacketed manifolds: Yanmar and Volvo and almost all marinizers like Beta Marine and Nanni.

It is the water jacketed exhaust manifold that dooms many DIY marinizers. It is a complex casting that just can't be duplicated in a one-off situation. The water jacketed manifold is the one item that makes a new Beta Marine engine cost twice as much as a new tractor Kubota.

The design of that stainless steel cooler is a disaster. All you need is a water injection elbow to do what that stainless cooler claims to do. The injection elbow was perfected many, many years ago for marine engines. It does need to be designed properly, installed with enough elevation and oriented so that the water flows downhill. There are many OEM and aftermarket injection elbows that can be bought relatively cheaply. The small Yanmar's elbow costs about $500.

I would much rather see Janice use a keel cooler and a dry stack exhaust than that stainless contraption. But the lack of a jacketed exhaust manifold is the real killer.

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Old 05-19-2015, 04:16 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djmarchand View Post
I have refrained from commenting on that beautiful piece of stainless for fear of offending Janice and throwing a wet blanket on what is an interesting exercise.

The design of that stainless steel cooler is a disaster.
ditto.
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Old 05-19-2015, 04:58 PM   #28
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Wow....between the new input from experienced guys and some side chatter saying exactly the same thing plus my reservations on the "why that way?".....


Janice...seriously consider running the job so far by another firm...if at all possible.


I just don't think you want to go through this again and if this is job 2 for the same place....what went wrong with diesel number 1?
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Old 05-19-2015, 08:09 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Spy View Post
I'm only more confused.

Actually, Janice, I meant what kind of SS is the the "manifold".
The pipes for the exhaust are Schedule 40 (stainless)
The box itself is thick (and I'm drawing a blank at the exact measurement) -- I know the number, but it's been a long day.
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Old 05-19-2015, 08:27 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kulas44 View Post
As I see it this is an exhaust "riser, seperate from and bolted to the exhaust "manifold" correct ? If so vibration from the D series Kuboto will break/crack that 2 bolt flange in short order. All to do with the length and resonant harmonics. At the least you're going to need to weld some tabs on for support braces.
Got that covered. A brace will bolt to the aft end of the engine -- it's been mocked up and will be torch cut (the shrimp boat next to me is a welder -- steel boat/has to be) so he'll cut the metal to support the stainless.

I was concerned about vibration too... more for noise than anything. When the new holes are drilled for the engine mounts -- of course this was designed/built prior to the engine being set in it's final place. So it didn't fit -- bulkhead issue!

To solve that, a flex plate was added. That inch was all we needed to make things fit. It's a boat, right?

But now that the motor mounts have to be re-drilled I'll investigate adding some cushioning under the mounts to help deaden the sound. I've got some stuff her that might work

Thanks for the head's up about lag. That sounds similar to the asbestos tape used back in the day...
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Old 05-19-2015, 08:36 PM   #31
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I am in no way an engineer, and in fact I have no idea what the pros and cons of your project are Janice, but I've followed your blog a bit, and I truly wish you a heartfelt good luck in whatever choices you make.
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Old 05-19-2015, 08:59 PM   #32
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Quote:
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Another idea ....
Put a 90 elbow between the cooler/riser box and the exhaust manifold mounting the riser/box crossways or athwartships. Rigid mounting to keep the riser moving in sync w the engine will solve the mounting issue. Some changes in the wet exhaust run may be necessary.

Re the space in your boat this could be an advantage and a side exhaust may even become attractive.
The riser/manifold will run cross wise.

Hoses go forward to the heat exchanger (also mounted athwartships)

Then to the water lift muffler and out the side of the boat.

And thank you for the words of wisdom. It's taking me time to wrap my head around it all and there's a lot to comprehend, at least for me.

The water pump is bought -- it's big. It's a KubotaHydPump-GP036-2

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Old 05-19-2015, 10:46 PM   #33
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I have gathered the input and tomorrow will have a long chat with the mechanic. I need to better understand the why's for the choices made. And I've PM'ed some for permission to quote you online (in my article) as I want the mechanic to read your words too.

Please, if you've been contacted, say yes. This is important to me and for anyone else who is following in my wake.

We all can miss important items -- minutia is often far more important than we would like to think and it's the little things that doom some projects. It's not just one thing though -- often it's a cascade effect.

I do not want that to happen to my Seaweed. This has been a nightmare and I want to make sure that the choices made are smart ones. Project Management is not a strong suit of mine so your input (all of you!) is critical so I can understand potential pitfalls, and hopefully correct them.

Thanks. And it's okay. I know everything I've done has not been 100% right by the book. Improvisation is like that -- some stuff works and some does not. I'm always smarter in hindsight. And I am capable of learning.
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Old 05-19-2015, 10:49 PM   #34
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Janice,
Here is my riser setup. Built by Marysville Marine Exhaust in Marysville WA for $750. All SS and not water jacketed .. just water injected.

The green hose carries the spent seawater to the near top of the riser (fairly high) and the "T" at the bottom of the green hose is for water injection to the PSS shaft seal.

The riser is mounted w 4 studs on the exhaust manifold. One of the studs can be seen and they are further apart that it looks. Re Vibration and mechanical security the outlet rubber hose to the lift muffler is quite stiff and my plastic (Poly Flex) engine mounts don't allow much engine movement even at idle. But not much engine vibration is felt on the boat.

I've never seen underneath the heat shield blanket so don't even really know what it looks like but it's very effective shielding the engine compartment and stray human parts from getting burned on the exhaust parts. The insulation on that red wire is completely intact and not damaged by the exhaust.

I was in Alaska when this was installed on Willy. I had no input re the design short of telling MM Exhaust about my boat. Everything was what they thought it should be. Don't know how I could improve on it after almost 10 years and 800 hrs of use. I had fairly constant trouble w the cast iron that was on my Yanmar (previous boat) and sought out a more trouble free riser. The typical cast iron risers are fine but require replacement close to once a year. They don't take much trouble to replace and clearly are the cheapest riser solution. Things get more complicated as the riser is built higher.

So I submit the standard hardware usually employed for this mission is simple, direct, economical and effective. Any variations takes one into the world of experimentation. A place I'm fairly comfortable in to an extent few here would follow my trail.

As I've said I kinda like your "riser/manifold" but re what some of the other more conservative guys have said there is definitely room for troublesome events or "miss-functions". Loosing your coolant or even catching fire probably won't happen and if anything resembling that happens you have good experience and seamanship to deal w whatever.

Marine automotive engine conversions were quite common in the 50s and many people did much or even all of the conversions themselves. Anyway if you do implement your over and under engineered "riser" do share your experience and include all the details.
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Old 05-19-2015, 11:57 PM   #35
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Go it, and thanks Eric. You've been very helpful. Thank you.
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Old 05-20-2015, 06:44 AM   #36
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Janice, how far into the project are you -- really?


In terms of money, of course, but also intellectual and emotional commitment?


Far enough in that there's no turning back? Or investigating/comparing other options?


I'd suspect folks here can help, either way... but knowing how much flexibility you have at this point could maybe help focus comments...


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Old 05-20-2015, 10:24 AM   #37
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Ranger I think she's committed, at least in her mind.

I can't imagine a small elbow costing $500. And re what Marty (PackMule) said there's plenty of used stuff available however an elbow would not be a good thing to get used unless it was .. not used.

I originally scanned Janice's link but just read Doug R's comments and I also thought the air pocket would be a problem but simply rerouting the small plumbing nipples may/should solve that problem. I would be thinking in on the bottom and out on the top near the water injection nipple. I also noticed the shape of the "tank" would require 45 degree elbows not 90s as it appears in the drawing.

At this point I see two very big problems. My suggestion of cross mounting and "V" struts will require very stout hardware and excellent mounting points. Success? Probably but maybe not. The other problem is metal expansion and contraction. The outside of the box will always be relatively cool but the internal pipes and 45s will be very much hotter. The box will want to grow in all directions but the pipe will grow lengthwise much more so. It will want to bust out at one end. Also the cool water injection pipe will be attached to the outer mass of metal (box) and the internal heavy and very hot pipe. Makes me wonder if there are any other weldments inside attaching the internal pipe to the outer box. If so there will be a great tug-o-war going on between the box and internal pipe. If not a lot of forces will be acting on the one thing holding (or trying to hold) the internal water injection pipe to the box.

Janice, Doug Rs input seems very good to me. Read it again and see if anything comes to mind.

It's possible some very inexpensive steel pipe and elbows (90s) plus an iron marine elbow could replace the magnificent box but at this point I don't think it's viewed as an option but at some point that may be a consideration.

What does your Exhaust manifold look like Janice? It's hard to imagine a two stud/bolt attachment.
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Old 05-20-2015, 10:45 AM   #38
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Quote:
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Janice, how far into the project are you -- really?


In terms of money, of course, but also intellectual and emotional commitment?


Far enough in that there's no turning back? Or investigating/comparing other options?
Time wise Chris? Too much.

The engine must be used. I simply cannot replace/switch that part. The peripherals however? I'm not tied to anything.

Living on a boat that doesn't move is simply sub-standard housing with a nice view. It is necessary for Seaweed to be mobile and she's not.

I love my boat.

What's done so far: (and I will not admit how long this had taken)

#1) Hayes Bell housing ordered, bought/installed (6 weeks between order and delivery)
#2) braces for motor mounts installed (aluminium angle iron thru-bolted to stringers)
#3) Pump bought
#4) manifold/riser built

it didn't fit. Okay, measurements were perfect, everything built then the motor was put on the motor mounts, aligned perfectly, and the bulkhead (structural) was in the way. Barely.

Options included adding a bend (pipe, not box) in the unit or moving the motor forward. Decision made to go forward. That involved the purchase of:



#6) heat exchanger gifted to me

Those are the major components done. I *was* thrilled to be THISclose (theoretically) to completion. It's my understanding what is left is to align the motor, install water pump and begin sea trials.

Okay, wiring too and add the alternator. A friend on Bemused has a 60amp alternator that may fit from when he upgraded to a Balmar 120. We are not sure if it will fit -- if not I'll give it back to Rick when I get to the east coast. Unless he comes over here first.

As far as the engine goes: I'm using the Kubota. That's a certainty -- can't afford another and this one is paid for. The marinization is the sticky spot. Nothing is written in stone though of course I would prefer to use what I've got rather than spendmore money that I do not have.

Side note: For some reason (okay, I pay my bills on time) I have good credit and therefore have options financially. That still means I have to pay the bills though and that concerns me. [I was one of those TARPed out of existence when "we're from the government and only rich bankers will be harmed" during the banking crisis so my nestegg is gone.]

HOWEVER, I am not intransigent regarding this project. If there's a better way (that is within my budget) I'm open to change. And that's why I posted here and elsewhere. I'm hearing one side (my mechanic's) and needed outside input.

It's like when Son was small. His surgeon was "the" doctor who wrote the books on how to do the surgery. Well, results were less than spectacular and no one in the Miami area would suggest any other solutions. Finally I took him eight hours away to another physician of equal stature in a related specialty who had his own sense of direction. I followed that one and though not perfect, it was better.

[For the curious: Son was born with a severe bi-lateral cleft lip and palate. In the 21 years he lived (had a heart attack 13 April 2002) he spoke clearly and perfectly two days. Then the surgery ripped loose. There were multi-pronged efforts to fix the birth defects and related issues, vision, hearing, speech, etc. And I loved him just as he was...]

Anyway, that is probably far more detail than you wanted, but there you have it. I am open to change. And I do welcome suggestions.
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Old 05-20-2015, 10:55 AM   #39
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Kubota motors were used in Onan gensets, I have one. MDKD-8, 18hp. Lots of parts available.

Good luck with your project.
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Old 05-20-2015, 11:59 AM   #40
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Quick Question for Eric. When I went to put in a link to Marysville Marine Exhaust I'm coming up with a company called National Marine Exhaust. Is that the same place that built yours?

Google says: nationalmarineexhaust.com/
Aug 26, 2014 - We are an OEM supplier of the largest boat builders in the US. ... Our exhaust solutions can improve mileage, extend the ... Seattle, WA USA.
Google+ page Be the first to review
3710 136th St NE, Marysville, WA 98271
(360) 659-2983

Thanks.
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