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Old 06-15-2015, 09:22 AM   #181
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"He swears that the reason his Detroit diesels are still running well is because after each run he flushes the cooling system with fresh water. It's a raw water boat."

It runs BECAUSE it is a Detroit usually 2x or 3x the service life of lesser brands.

No matter what you should see 5000 hours from your setup, at 200 hours a year , thats a lot of years.

The loop is perhaps 1000 hours ,gona do it 5 times?
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Old 06-15-2015, 09:49 AM   #182
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I agree w FF. The flushing will be fly stuff but I've thought about doing it. I'm going to Seattle to get a new trans heat exchanger and I may not need to if I'd flushed after every use for the last 10 years ... but that's a lot of flushing.

Kulas,
I didn't want to mention that for fear of going in a more crude direction .. but very good point. She may even be able to talk them into doing that for her to perhaps (in a small way) make up for all the mickey mouse stuff they loaded on her. Fishermen in AK do it all the time.
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Old 06-15-2015, 09:51 AM   #183
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I have a good friend that flushes every time he gets back from a trip, two mains, a genny and HVAC. He said it keeps the growth at bay and preserves his exhaust elbows. Maybe he'll chime in.
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Old 06-15-2015, 10:00 AM   #184
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To answer a couple of questions:


The Beta Marine 20 would be a great engine to emulate in Janice's case, but I am afraid that the cost of marinization parts would be astronomical. The heat exchanger is integral with the jacketed exhaust manifold and as a result is a very expensive part. Such is the nature of marinizing a cheap ubiquitous diesel for a small marine market.


And since the exhaust elbow bolts to the marine exhaust manifold that wouldn't work for Janice's engine.


But like I said a hundred posts ago, talk to Stanley Feigenbaum at Beta Marine NC. At the very least he can tell you which raw water pump that they use.


Fresh water flushing. The theory is that flushing out the sea water that lies in the heat exchanger and other raw water parts with fresh water after each use will reduce corrosion. Sea water corrodes bronze and cupronickel tubes much faster than fresh water.


There are a number of ways to do this but let's not get into that right now. Get the engine up and running right first.


David
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Old 06-15-2015, 12:15 PM   #185
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2 very trustworthy engineering types I know (N. Spy as posting earlier) have recommended ball valves or similar over gate valves...while they both "may" work.... I'd lean to the ball valves if you need something to limit the flow.


Bronze and cupronickel sit in seawater for many decades ...maybe a century or more if isolated properly or with similar metal...hard to imagine a regular fresh water flush does much more than help with the occasional marine buildup (not corrosion)...which should be done just to flush scale, etc out every decade or so.
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Old 06-15-2015, 12:32 PM   #186
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Bronze and cupronickel sit in seawater for many decades ...maybe a century or more if isolated properly or with similar metal...hard to imagine a regular fresh water flush does much more than help with the occasional marine buildup (not corrosion)...which should be done just to flush scale, etc out every decade or so.

You should spend a little time on boatdiesel. Every month or so there is a tale of a leaking transmission, lube oil or fuel cooler. These are made with bronze and cupronickel components that are exposed to sea water and they fail surprisingly often.

But the real purpose of this discussion was failure of the stainless steel welds in Janice's contraption. SS doesn't last all that long in sea water, especially welds.

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Old 06-15-2015, 12:45 PM   #187
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You should spend a little time on boatdiesel. Every month or so there is a tale of a leaking transmission, lube oil or fuel cooler. These are made with bronze and cupronickel components that are exposed to sea water and they fail surprisingly often.

But the real purpose of this discussion was failure of the stainless steel welds in Janice's contraption. SS doesn't last all that long in sea water, especially welds.

David
Partially true....construction has something to do with it. Last summer I had an oil cooler fall apart...nothing to do with corrosion (some may say so) but really the way it was poorly soldered.

Many failures are from other than just saltwater sitting in them...the tubes and main pipe are rarely what fails in my experience from just salt water.

Absolutely the welds in the SS are going to be a concern...probably again from construction more than the base metal it is welded up from. Flushing MAY help...MAYBE not.

Many people know that rinsing their boat with cool fresh water does little to get salt out from cracks and crevices. It takes warm, soapy water often with some force or rubbing to do the job. Thus the Salt away or Salt-X type products for flushing. Just fresh water rinsing is hit or mis..most people and businesses don't and I will stick with the pack on this one as failures in my experience probably wouldn't have been prevented with just flushing.

Sorta like saying your engine lasts forever because you use one specific oil when the guy next to you has an engine that lasts longer with something else. Too much anectdotal info on whether flushing actually helps.

Show me several studies with irrefutable proof and the flush kit will be on my engine tomorrow.
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Old 06-15-2015, 01:25 PM   #188
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2 very trustworthy engineering types I know (N. Spy as posting earlier) have recommended ball valves or similar over gate valves...while they both "may" work.... I'd lean to the ball valves if you need something to limit the flow.


Bronze and cupronickel sit in seawater for many decades ...maybe a century or more if isolated properly or with similar metal...hard to imagine a regular fresh water flush does much more than help with the occasional marine buildup (not corrosion)...which should be done just to flush scale, etc out every decade or so.

I guess it may depend on where you're boating. But in the south, you better be flushing your coolers, especially the coils for your A/C units, way more often than once a decade.
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Old 06-15-2015, 02:16 PM   #189
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You should spend a little time on boatdiesel. Every month or so there is a tale of a leaking transmission, lube oil or fuel cooler. These are made with bronze and cupronickel components that are exposed to sea water and they fail surprisingly often.

But the real purpose of this discussion was failure of the stainless steel welds in Janice's contraption. SS doesn't last all that long in sea water, especially welds.

David
David, this post is a little confusing to me in that I have an MT 36 with a rudder that is made of 1/4" stainless plate. During our last haulout I removed all paint down to the bare metal. It and the welds still looked like new. I presume that it is the original rudder but I do not know that for sure. I do know that the boat had not been out of the water since 2004. Maybe because of the protection afforded by the paint. Don't know.
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Old 06-15-2015, 02:26 PM   #190
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I guess it may depend on where you're boating. But in the south, you better be flushing your coolers, especially the coils for your A/C units, way more often than once a decade.
I guess I should have said as needed for general purposes....where I have been boating and the type boats, 10 years isn't uncommon if the coolers are the type that go that long...

Not flushing to get salt water out of them....


It's not that I don't believe salt water is bad...I'm just saying the typical replacement cycle usually beats the general corrosion issues...and not the erosion, joint failure modes I have seen.


Again..if there is definitive proof I would love to read up on it.

There's a great example of an expensive coil that I don't know that anyone flushes after use...AC coils...true most drain..but if they don't....
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Old 06-15-2015, 05:19 PM   #191
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I guess it may depend on where you're boating. But in the south, you better be flushing your coolers, especially the coils for your A/C units, way more often than once a decade.


But isn't that for growth, rather than metal corrosion?

I know I have to flush our AC systems at least once per year, even here in the Chesapeake.... but that seems to just be all about jellies (sea nettles), mud, grass, etc.

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Old 06-15-2015, 07:48 PM   #192
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I installed 'Quick Flush Valves' in Jan this year. I'd just rebuilt and replaced the raw and glycol water pumps, removed and had cleaned HX's and oil coolers so I thought it was an oppurtune time to install the flush valves I'd been thinking of doing for awhile. As a lifetime (up until we bought Wine Down) outboard boater - I couldn;t even begin to imagin bringing my trailer boat home and NOT fresh water flushing the donk for 10-15mins. As a result I've always been uneasy about power down, close seacocks and step off (well not quite but you get the point) procedure in the 'new' boat.

So I guess fresh water flush for me has a lot to do with 'what I've been bought up to do' with engines on boats.

The install of the valve was simpler than expected - didn't even need to cut a hose (got the hose shop to cut me 2 x 2inch long bits). Just undid the raw water hose at outlet side of strainer, push it back a bit, fit one end of flush vave to that, fit one of the 2inch bits on other side and onto the strainer outlet. Literally a 5 minute install.

I bought the optional 'strainer hose' attachment that allows me to draw water out of a bucket. Much safer as damage can be done to engine by plugging water hose directly into the valve without having the motor running. Thought it a much safer option to draw from a bucket with fresh water hose filling bucket. Plus allows additives like salt-away (or glycol for you winterizing folks) to be added easily.

So in all it adds about 10-15mins to my shutdown proceedure but I do it once all the rest is washed down and otherwise ready to put to bed for the week/fortnight. Nice chance to just crack a beer and do the big "sigh... another trip over..." reflection/lament thing.
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Old 06-16-2015, 07:12 AM   #193
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"The heat exchanger is integral with the jacketed exhaust manifold and as a result is a very expensive part. Such is the nature of marinizing a cheap ubiquitous diesel for a small marine market."

This is done for looks , and replacement part$ sales.

A very simple marinization would simply wrap the manifold with proper insulation , and use common pipe for the exhaust , with a pipe water injector in the proper location.

Engine cooling could be done with an OTS cooler , and as many are found used and cheap, a spare would not be a problem.

For the true low cost conversion a keel cooler (galv pipe is fine) and a dry exhaust (inside a fireplace double exhaust) is as quick ,cheap,and trouble free as can be done.
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Old 06-16-2015, 07:42 AM   #194
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But isn't that for growth, rather than metal corrosion?

I know I have to flush our AC systems at least once per year, even here in the Chesapeake.... but that seems to just be all about jellies (sea nettles), mud, grass, etc.

-Chris
Yes, for growth. Flushing with freshwater for corrosion is not really done.
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Old 07-01-2015, 01:24 AM   #195
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Hi Janice,

I've been following your trials and tribulations with some interest. I wonder how, or if, things have been resolved?

Are you ready to get underway once again?
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Old 07-15-2015, 03:47 PM   #196
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Good Luck

To Seaweed and Janice.
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Old 07-18-2015, 07:25 PM   #197
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Pour a nice cuppa joe, as I'm catching up. It's been a long month, and finally I pulled the plug on Carrabelle. With trepidation, sadness, and irritation with my own Project Management skills (or lack thereof) I've bitten the bullet, hired a truck and am now in St. Pete, FL.

This job will be finished.

As a matter of fact, two days ago a mechanic was scheduled to come out but the afternoon thunder-boomers delayed until next week. That's okay -- I've got someone and am happy/hopeful again.

As per the suggestion of AusCan I've got a hard copy of the Beta20 shop manual. I've read it and again this entire thread. Y'all cannot imagine how much I appreciate the wisdom shared.

Especially as I endeavor to finish the bloody job. Finally.

I will of course ask re a couple things.

#1) The stainless -- about the addition of the spacer between the engine and that manifold/whatever. I don't have one, and think that if we keep the stainless the spacer at the engine would go a long way toward preventing stress cracks.

No, the support bracket was not welded in Carrabelle.
Please don't ask.

Looking in the rear view mirror is a recipe for unhappiness. I'm looking forward with joy and anticipating good things coming my way. Including an engine that actually moves the boat.

What a concept, eh?!?

#2) The other, should I simply dispose of the stainless and go with a standard exhaust elbow/salt water injection system as in thousands of boats? That's probably what will happen however I am willing to be persuaded in either direction.

The thing that most concerns me is that I cannot see inside that box. I won't know if there is an issue until it is too late so obviously I'm leaning toward the Norm, versus the new.

Still, I admit to wanting to know if what was designed will work. I'd like to believe it will but that's neither here nor there. Right now I have a boat that won't run.

The gent who used his jet-ski to tow me across the river ("Thanks Freddie") took a gander at the engine. He states four hours and she'll be finished, give or take. That works for me.

And now, for the comments, questions and more as posted of late. I'm catching up. I confess to avoiding the thread while not-a-thing was happening but now? Well, now things are going to move along at a better pace.

I do hope I've learned a hard lesson: don't let time pass by. It's too precious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger42c View Post
If that Beta 20 manual also shows the water pumps, heat exchangers, and exhaust elbows and so forth that they routinely use... it might be giving you a shopping list of parts (and part numbers) for future improvements.
Too true Chris. They have something similar I suspect however instead of mounting where the hot air exhausts, it's lower. It seems to serve the same purpose though.

And I look forward to learning what the local guy here has to say.

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No matter what you should see 5000 hours from your setup, at 200 hours a year , thats a lot of years.

The loop is perhaps 1000 hours ,gona do it 5 times?
Now, don't forget about Manatee... they've done the loop more than twenty times. At five knots I'm not going fast anywhere. Still, I intend to have a lot of fun.

Can't wait!

Quote:
Originally Posted by djmarchand View Post
The Beta Marine 20 would be a great engine to emulate in Janice's case, but I am afraid that the cost of marinization parts would be astronomical. The heat exchanger is integral with the jacketed exhaust manifold and as a result is a very expensive part. Such is the nature of marinizing a cheap ubiquitous diesel for a small marine market.

(SNIPPED)

Fresh water flushing. The theory is that flushing out the sea water that lies in the heat exchanger and other raw water parts with fresh water after each use will reduce corrosion. Sea water corrodes bronze and cupronickel tubes much faster than fresh water.

There are a number of ways to do this but let's not get into that right now. Get the engine up and running right first.
My heat exchanger is a separate unit bolted on the forward bulkhead in the engine room.



Amen re getting her up and running first. That's my top priority.

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Originally Posted by djmarchand View Post
But the real purpose of this discussion was failure of the stainless steel welds in Janice's contraption. SS doesn't last all that long in sea water, especially welds.
Here's an overhead view:



And yes, I do think the wire-reinforced hose mentioned previously, between the flange on the engine and the stainless is a Necessity. If we keep the stainless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shufti View Post
I installed 'Quick Flush Valves' in Jan this year.

(SNIPPED)

The install of the valve was simpler than expected - didn't even need to cut a hose (got the hose shop to cut me 2 x 2inch long bits). Just undid the raw water hose at outlet side of strainer, push it back a bit, fit one end of flush vave to that, fit one of the 2inch bits on other side and onto the strainer outlet. Literally a 5 minute install.

I bought the optional 'strainer hose' attachment that allows me to draw water out of a bucket. Much safer as damage can be done to engine by plugging water hose directly into the valve without having the motor running. Thought it a much safer option to draw from a bucket with fresh water hose filling bucket. Plus allows additives like salt-away (or glycol for you winterizing folks) to be added easily.
We did something similar on our 40'er. I just didn't remember how so having the name (Quick Flush Valves) is a big help. This in theory ought to be a benefit and being able to watch the water suck up from a bucket is a real boon. Thanks for the information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
A very simple marinization would simply wrap the manifold with proper insulation , and use common pipe for the exhaust , with a pipe water injector in the proper location.
This is the likely Best Choice to make. I will consult with the mechanic when he is on the boat this coming week. I like something I can look at an examine. The hidden injection point on the stainless already has me worried, and it's unused at present.

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Originally Posted by MRRiley View Post
I've been following your trials and tribulations with some interest. I wonder how, or if, things have been resolved?
The "solution" was to get out of Carrabelle. Sunday night my friend Kim spotted Seaweed across the river at the boatyard ready for hauling on Monday morning. Like many she did not realize the extent of my unhappiness. Nor how long it had been.

Now on to the net phase: i.e. getting her running again. I was sorry to pay $$ to get out of Carrabelle, however too many disappointments and no-shows... well, at a certain point the towel is throw in and I start fresh.

That's done now. And the final part will be to get Seaweed up and running. The final configuration of the cooling system has not been determined. That's coming.

And in the meantime, wish me luck. Prayers are certainly welcome.

Also, as always, a huge thank you to the Trawler Forum family. I'd be stuck i Carrabelle if it weren't for you and I have to tell you, St. Pete is WONDERFUL. It's beautiful, and the waters are green.

Can't wait to enjoy more of the area.

J
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Old 07-18-2015, 11:28 PM   #198
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Welcome to onward and upward Janice, glad you arrived.
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Old 07-19-2015, 12:27 AM   #199
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#2 - Yes!
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Old 07-19-2015, 12:42 AM   #200
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Get rid if the SS box and go with what almost every other boat uses as an exhaust system day in and day out.

While I don't know all the detsils, it seems to me those so called mechanics in Carrabelle not only owe you money but an apology for the mess they have left you with.

Since I'm guessing none of that that going to happen, move on and get on with getting things straightened out an start cruising ASAP.

Wish I was home in Sarasota where I could come up and help out.
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