Repower Options

[remwines]

I have ’79 DeFever Down East 40 with the original single Ford SSD 655M engine. The engine runs fine, smooth and starts quickly, but it is a very obscure and obsolete engine. I have run across only one boat shop that has even heard of this engine. It is the same engine as the Iveco Aifo 8061.04*05G made by Fiat, just marketed by Ford in the USA in the late 70's. Parts are nearly impossible to find today.

I keep the boat in the SF Bay area and if I were going to just cruise locally, I would probably leave that engine in place. But I plan on running it up to the Puget Sound for a couple of seasons, and making the inside passage to Alaska at least one time is on my bucket list. I just do not have enough confidence that this engine will make the trip. So my obvious question is; what are the smartest repower options. I can have a new modern engine dropped in, but I also have the shop and skills to rebuild a take-out marine engine. Here’s some of the current specs on the boat.
• DE 40: (same hull as DeFever Passagemaker), 30,000 lbs full displacement
• Engine: Ford SSD 655M, Inline 6, 117hp, 2300 RPM full throttle
• 6.9 knots @ 1900 RPM
• BW transmission (don’t know gear ratio, will check)
• 25x19 three blade prop
I am shooting for the same or a bit more speed. I have been reading posts from the Trawler Forum and DeFever Cruiser Forum. Cummins BT6 and John Deere variants’ seen to be popular. I like simple, so I am somewhat concerned with newer electronically controlled and turbo engines. They may increase efficiency and performance, but in my mind they have more things to fail. I’d hate to be stuck in a British Columbia fiord with a failed electronic engine component.

It will be a couple of years before I make the Alaska trip, so I am in no particular rush to repower. But getting it done sooner will allow more time for me to shake out the bugs. Any opinions or personal experiences will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Bob Mills

 

[CPseudonym]

I'll get flamed outta this place for saying this but look into the new offerings from Volvo. I was looking into repowering a couple years ago and Volvo made good sense. By the time a new Volvo becomes a "legacy engine" I'd be dead and my kids or new owner can deal with it.

 

[bayview]

The guy to talk to is Tony Athens at


Custom Cummins Marine Diesel Repower Specialists | Seaboard Marine

 

[DavidM]

Tony will probably recommend the rock solid Cummins 6BT 210 hp engine. It is sold as a remanned engine by Cummins, but in fact is an entirely brand new engine, just called remanned to get by the EPA.


More hp than you need, but it will last forever running slow. There is a turbo charger but no after cooler to worry about. The turbo should last as long as the engine if installed and propped right.


David

 

[sunchaser]

I agree with Dave M, Cummins reman. With help and guidance from Tony Athens in Oxnard and your shop and skills it seems like a good overall fit.

 

[koliver]

I did a repower in 2000. I went from a pair of Volvo TMD40s with 4500 hrs to a pair of Volvo TAMD41s with 1500 hrs. The swap cost me a haulout and $2500 after selling the old engines through a fishboat magazine ad. I did the work myself, except for the HIAB truck to physically lift the engines out and in.
You need to know whether your BW trans has the standard bolt pattern, whether your Iveco engine has the motor mounts the standard lateral and fore/aft spacing, which side your incoming water attaches, your exhaust attaches, exhaust diameter, whether you can get it out through the door, and the new one in, etc, etc.
Boatdiesel.com is a great resource. Engines are for sale there too.

OTOH, I had a client once who dropped $100k on a swap. He took out a pair of Ivecos and put in a pair of Cats, without paying adequate attention to the issues I have outlined above.

 

[Ski in NC]

I don't think Volvo offers any mechanical engines anymore. All computer stuff. I think the only mechanicals above 100hp are Cummins reman and maybe Deere has something similar. Fortunately with the older boat a reman is a go. New hulls have to use computer/emission engines.

 

[O C Diver]

When I did my repower, the John Deere 4045 tier 2 emissions was my first choice. The Cummins 6BT 220 HP was my second. Found a JD 4045, but there are no more new ones tier 2. Had the Cummins 6BT210 in my charter boat till upgrading to more HP. Have a 6BT 220 in my Dodge pickup that just turned 400,000 miles. I'm a big believer in the 6BT 220!

Ted

 

[Nomad Willy]

From everything I've heard the Perkins 6-354 is very good and has no downsides like the Lehmans. There is a lot of them out there and a used one becoming availible is very likely. So in addition there is the engine that FF frequently mentions ... (IH). The International would of course be too much power like the Cummins.

If you're going to buy a new engine the JD looks foolproof to me. You may be fully happy w the 80hp NA engine like Mark has. Dave has already suggested you double your power so to ballance that the 80 hp Deere may be an engine you'd like to run at higher power settings more comfortably.
The best option IMO if you're going w new is to buy from a small company the marineizes industrial engines. There is at least two in Seattle. I bought mine from one of them that has been supplying prime movers and generating engines since the 60's. I got it custom made for me w all the features i wanted. Steel exhaust manifold and plastic engine mounts and a number of others. All the other engines
I looked at had aluminum manifolds w no options. And it all cost much less than a brand name engine.

You ask about options .. Well I think the most important option you have while repowering is to choose the amount of power you will install. After you make you're move that's it. You will probably not get the option again.


If I were you I'd want very much to retain the BW gear.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. mb. Lehman's have downsides? Pray tell...

 

[Nomad Willy]

Mr RTF,
Just #6 cylinder overheating and the fuel pump requiring extra maintanance. Not much of a downside but they aren't usually cheap either. Many are running FL's at low power for several reasons but having the faith run them hard seems lacking for a lot of owners on the forum. Why buy a used engine w issues when there are so many without.
If I found a great deal on an FL power boat the FL certianLy wouldn't be a deal breaker. But as I posted there are better options.
I'd like to see someone install one of those IH truck engines .. if they needed that much power. Too much power is silly .. thats the only S word I'll use.

 

[kulas44]

Perkins parts are available world wide. The 6-354 at 120 hp is bulletproof. The 4-236 is as good or better at 80 hp. Cummins 6bt and 4bt are GREAT options in the good ol USA. Not so much in the EU. If I were you I would go with the engine you like and know best.

 

[remwines]

The Cummins 6BT would be an easy choice for me. I've had two Dodge Cummins PU's, a '99 24 valve and a 2003 common rail. Common rail is much quieter. It is hard to argue the longevity and parts availability. It is a lot more HP than I can use. I was considering a JD 4045 variant, but would the NA 80hp be enough without pushing it too hard? I have seen Mark's JD in the Coot and would really appreciate the extra space in the engine room. I have read the 4045's are balanced in such a manner that they run nearly as smooth as the inline 6. Manyboats, can you post or PM the names of the engine builders you mentioned. Do they put marine component on JD engines?

Koliver: good suggestions. I'm not sure about the standard transmission bolt pattern. It looks like a typical industrial engine bolt pattern. These engines were used in a lot of Allis Chalmers loaders and motor grader in the 70's and 80's, as well as Ag water pumps. The engine mounts appear to be normal, though they are recessed into the stringers about 4 inches. I will measure and photograph everything next time I am at the boat. Funny thing is, this boat was used for the Down East 40 brochure. The brochure lists the FL120 as standard and the 6-354 as an option, yet they had this oddball engine installed in their demo boat. Go figure?

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. mb. Point taken.

 

[Capt.Bill11]

Mr RTF,
Just #6 cylinder overheating and the fuel pump requiring extra maintanance. Not much of a downside but they aren't usually cheap either.

I'm no English tractor motor expect of course but in my 30+ years of dealing with Lehmans I've never seen one with the #6 cylinder issue. Nor seen any abnormal fuel pump issues with them. And I never babied them either.

But YMMV.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Thanks RT.

remwines,
Sounds like the Ford that you feel is original may not be. Your engine mounts being recessed 4" into the engine bed suggests that they were lowered to accomodate the present engine and gear. The fact that the planetary drive BW gear has a shaft output that is 3 - 4" above most other gear outputs indicates that posibility. Just a thought.

Bill many say that but many over the years say otherwise.

 

[Capt.Bill11]

True. But many just seem to repeat what they've been told or heard.

 

[Baker]

Mr RTF,
Just #6 cylinder overheating and the fuel pump requiring extra maintanance. Not much of a downside but they aren't usually cheap either. Many are running FL's at low power for several reasons but having the faith run them hard seems lacking for a lot of owners on the forum. Why buy a used engine w issues when there are so many without.
If I found a great deal on an FL power boat the FL certianLy wouldn't be a deal breaker. But as I posted there are better options.
I'd like to see someone install one of those IH truck engines .. if they needed that much power. Too much power is silly .. thats the only S word I'll use.

Have you been sipping out of Marin's Koolaid????....

 

[Baker]

Are there any CUmmins 6B naturally aspirated engines available out there???? ....Remans maybe? That would be a sweet ass engine for this application!

 

[sunchaser]

With the OP's desires to put 10,000 nm or more on his single engine vessel and at times far away from a marine or NAPA store, having a reman Cummins with all NEW hang ons like:

• Starter
• Alternator
• Exhaust elbow
• HXers
• Transmission
• Raw water pump
• Coolant pump
• Belts
• Hoses
• Wiring

may be appealing. Plus a full warranty.

 

[FF]

A " new reman " engine might be coupled to a commercial grade tranny (also rebuilt) like a Twin Disc, for better reliability.

 

[go-planing]

The best option IMO if you're going w new is to buy from a small company the marineizes industrial engines. There is at least two in Seattle.

Isuzu with Twin Disk transmission. Popular with fishing fleets in PNW.

 

[Ski in NC]

Are there any CUmmins 6B naturally aspirated engines available out there???? ....Remans maybe? That would be a sweet ass engine for this application!

You can get a 6B with no turbo, they are made for commercial apps, somewhere around 120hp. May not be too easy to find as even on the commercial machines the turbo is a net advantage.

But there really is no downside to getting the 6BT 210. If you don't need the hp the turbo allows, the turbo just idles along and engine acts much like a non-turbo. Many trawlers run these engines in this situation. One added plus is the turbo tends to quiet the intake and exhaust noise a bit.

 

[bayview]

Best of all the Cummins 6BXXX reman is mechanical so nothing mysterious to fix in remote locations. It would be my first choice without question.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Isuzu with Twin Disk transmission. Popular with fishing fleets in PNW.

Yes with MER or Yukon at Hatton's in Ballard.

Yukon is the descendant of Klassen. I bought my engine (Mitsu) from Klassen. Many economical choices of several brands. They made their place in the world (fishing PNW) mostly selling marinized Isuzus. I first saw one in the Queen Charlotte Is in 1971. These are the guys that sold and serviced huge numbers of engines to the Canadian and Alaskan fishing fleets. When you need a part in northern waters and have their engine you're in good hands. Get on the radio and in no time a float plane will taxi up to your boat with the part. I looked for a bus card but couldn't find one. Hatton bought out Klassen and bought all their inventory and hired all but one of the old Klassen people. They now are moving into bigger engines as well. Too big for trawlers me thinks. Unless it's a Marin Trawler.

I had a friend that was very unhappy w MER but they had for some time as near to a drop in JD replacement for the FL. Don't know if they still offer that engine.

I'd sure like to see Bob get an engine very close to the same power he has now. Would not be good to get a 200hp engine and run it for years at a 25% load. Then Bob may find himself in the underloaded overpowered conversations on TF down the road .. or is it channel.

 

[go-planing]

I had an Isuzu flatbed truck (NPR) with the 4 cylinder turbo engine...205 HP. What a gem. Non-turbo variants available. This brand would be my choice for re-powering any 40-45' twin as well.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Yes my favorite engine. I could have had the 54hp Isuzu or the 47hp Mitsu that was the exuivlant of 55hp. Too much power for my little Willard. Bought a 37hp Mitsu and run it almost always at 50% load (2300rpm). I was a little afraid I'd be under powered but could have used a 33hp engine easily. Probably would have been 60% load .. about perfect. That would be close to 4hp per ton. But Willy is a FD boat and the optimum power window is narrower. Only about 10hp. 45hp would be too much and 30 most likely a little shy. SD of course is much wider depending on design. And on a repower the owners wishes as well. As I think about it more less than 100hp may (depending on Bob) make good for Bob but at resale time 125hp would be better. If he can find a good Perkins 6-354, get it rebuilt and installed economically it would be hard to beat.

 

[Ski in NC]

A NA six liter at 100hp and a turbo six liter at 200hp are both going to be happy making 40hp. The turbo version just has more room at the top. Both loaded similarly at light load.

 

[DavidM]

"Would not be good to get a 200hp engine and run it for years at a 25% load"


I second Ski's observation. The above is an old wives tale, passed around from boater to boater, forum to forum (but not the boatdiesel forum), and is not true.


The turbo charged version of the Cummins 6B makes 210 hp at 2,600 rpm and the turbo charged and aftercooled version makes up to 370 hp at 3,000 rpm. The NA version makes about 120 hp at 2,400 rpm. A Perkins 6.354 which has the same displacement makes 135 hp at 2,400 rpm (or is it 2,600?). Similar for the Lehman 135.


When you run any of these engines slow, at 1,400 rpm or so, they are all going to act like the turbo is not there. There is nothing that will harm one with a turbo that won't harm the others without by running at light load. They are running hard enough to heat the engine up to operating temps. That is all that is required to eliminate any concern.


David

 

[R_p_ryan]

I have a Perkins T6.354 but I would opt for a 6bta because they are so common and proven. There are tons of options for the 6bt and you'll be able to find parts and know how if you find yourself in Sitka or San Francisco.