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Old 11-26-2015, 06:41 AM   #21
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A " new reman " engine might be coupled to a commercial grade tranny (also rebuilt) like a Twin Disc, for better reliability.
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Old 11-26-2015, 08:41 AM   #22
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The best option IMO if you're going w new is to buy from a small company the marineizes industrial engines. There is at least two in Seattle.

Isuzu with Twin Disk transmission. Popular with fishing fleets in PNW.
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Old 11-26-2015, 09:34 AM   #23
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Are there any CUmmins 6B naturally aspirated engines available out there???? ....Remans maybe? That would be a sweet ass engine for this application!
You can get a 6B with no turbo, they are made for commercial apps, somewhere around 120hp. May not be too easy to find as even on the commercial machines the turbo is a net advantage.

But there really is no downside to getting the 6BT 210. If you don't need the hp the turbo allows, the turbo just idles along and engine acts much like a non-turbo. Many trawlers run these engines in this situation. One added plus is the turbo tends to quiet the intake and exhaust noise a bit.
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Old 11-26-2015, 09:35 AM   #24
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Best of all the Cummins 6BXXX reman is mechanical so nothing mysterious to fix in remote locations. It would be my first choice without question.
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Old 11-26-2015, 10:59 AM   #25
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Isuzu with Twin Disk transmission. Popular with fishing fleets in PNW.
Yes with MER or Yukon at Hatton's in Ballard.

Yukon is the descendant of Klassen. I bought my engine (Mitsu) from Klassen. Many economical choices of several brands. They made their place in the world (fishing PNW) mostly selling marinized Isuzus. I first saw one in the Queen Charlotte Is in 1971. These are the guys that sold and serviced huge numbers of engines to the Canadian and Alaskan fishing fleets. When you need a part in northern waters and have their engine you're in good hands. Get on the radio and in no time a float plane will taxi up to your boat with the part. I looked for a bus card but couldn't find one. Hatton bought out Klassen and bought all their inventory and hired all but one of the old Klassen people. They now are moving into bigger engines as well. Too big for trawlers me thinks. Unless it's a Marin Trawler.

I had a friend that was very unhappy w MER but they had for some time as near to a drop in JD replacement for the FL. Don't know if they still offer that engine.

I'd sure like to see Bob get an engine very close to the same power he has now. Would not be good to get a 200hp engine and run it for years at a 25% load. Then Bob may find himself in the underloaded overpowered conversations on TF down the road .. or is it channel.
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Old 11-26-2015, 11:36 AM   #26
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I had an Isuzu flatbed truck (NPR) with the 4 cylinder turbo engine...205 HP. What a gem. Non-turbo variants available. This brand would be my choice for re-powering any 40-45' twin as well.
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Old 11-26-2015, 01:13 PM   #27
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Yes my favorite engine. I could have had the 54hp Isuzu or the 47hp Mitsu that was the exuivlant of 55hp. Too much power for my little Willard. Bought a 37hp Mitsu and run it almost always at 50% load (2300rpm). I was a little afraid I'd be under powered but could have used a 33hp engine easily. Probably would have been 60% load .. about perfect. That would be close to 4hp per ton. But Willy is a FD boat and the optimum power window is narrower. Only about 10hp. 45hp would be too much and 30 most likely a little shy. SD of course is much wider depending on design. And on a repower the owners wishes as well. As I think about it more less than 100hp may (depending on Bob) make good for Bob but at resale time 125hp would be better. If he can find a good Perkins 6-354, get it rebuilt and installed economically it would be hard to beat.
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Old 11-26-2015, 01:31 PM   #28
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A NA six liter at 100hp and a turbo six liter at 200hp are both going to be happy making 40hp. The turbo version just has more room at the top. Both loaded similarly at light load.
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Old 11-26-2015, 02:13 PM   #29
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"Would not be good to get a 200hp engine and run it for years at a 25% load"


I second Ski's observation. The above is an old wives tale, passed around from boater to boater, forum to forum (but not the boatdiesel forum), and is not true.


The turbo charged version of the Cummins 6B makes 210 hp at 2,600 rpm and the turbo charged and aftercooled version makes up to 370 hp at 3,000 rpm. The NA version makes about 120 hp at 2,400 rpm. A Perkins 6.354 which has the same displacement makes 135 hp at 2,400 rpm (or is it 2,600?). Similar for the Lehman 135.


When you run any of these engines slow, at 1,400 rpm or so, they are all going to act like the turbo is not there. There is nothing that will harm one with a turbo that won't harm the others without by running at light load. They are running hard enough to heat the engine up to operating temps. That is all that is required to eliminate any concern.


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Old 11-26-2015, 04:17 PM   #30
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I have a Perkins T6.354 but I would opt for a 6bta because they are so common and proven. There are tons of options for the 6bt and you'll be able to find parts and know how if you find yourself in Sitka or San Francisco.
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Old 11-26-2015, 04:37 PM   #31
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I have a Perkins T6.354 but I would opt for a 6bta because they are so common and proven. There are tons of options for the 6bt and you'll be able to find parts and know how if you find yourself in Sitka or San Francisco.
Dittos here, you will not be disappointed with a Cummins B.
Ski and djmarchand are spot on, running at low power does not hurt these motors, mine often runs all day and night at 1300, sometimes with hours of idling, and there is no problem.
If there is a problem, you will not find a larger distribution network, or cheaper parts in ANY comparable motor.
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Old 11-26-2015, 05:59 PM   #32
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I have a Mainship 34 with the 6bt that the PO put in to replace a working Perkins for some of the reasons discussed above. But in talking with him I got the sense that he ended up doing more conversion work than he bargained for. Original BW transmission was used, but to do it right the boat needed stringer reinforcements, larger shaft, new prop, new exhaust system, and larger raw water intake. In your case the transmission may fit but probably wouldn't be spec'd for that much torque. So don't overlook the peripheral requirements associated with replacing your existing with something 2x bigger.

I agree that there is little harm in having a larger motor, just don't forget the scope of modification needed to accommodate one.

Boat diesel has some very good tools and resources.
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Old 11-26-2015, 08:53 PM   #33
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To install twice the amount of power that you need is stupid any way you skin it.

But here's the good part .. I've expressed my opinion and I'll coment no further.
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Old 11-26-2015, 11:33 PM   #34
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I have a pair of the Cummins 6bt's, turbo but no cooler, rated at 165 HP, run at 1800 rpm. Did a top end at 12,000 hrs, now at 14,000 hrs.

Only thing I would look into changing, is that the turbo hangs at the back end after #6, over the bellhousing. There is an option to center mount the turbo above #3 & 4 cyl's and I think that would have been a better setup. I can definitely see the exhaust temp increase in each progressive cyl from 1 to 6 leading into the turbo, I think a center mount would have balanced the exhaust temps better.
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Old 11-27-2015, 11:04 AM   #35
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I was wrong.
My apologies to Ski and any others.


The problem is the turbo. I've always been supportive re the turbo engine in boats and many to most have come over to thinking they are OK. But that's a different issue than talking about power in a boat.

When I was shopping for the engine for Willy and was questioning power of several engines my "expert" adviser said to think in terms of engine displacement .. not listed hp. I'll bet a modern engine w turbo would have about 150-200 cu in for a 200hp engine. Despite the 200hp rating the engine would be considered too small. And on the other hand if Bob installed a 200hp NA engine it would be huge .. 500+ cu in.

That brings me back to Bob's boat and reflecting on what I've thought of the GB boats re powering. 117hp in a 40' boat is at least a bit underpowered for a SD boat and would be more appropriate for a FD hull. So I can relate to Bob's thinking a little more power would be a good thing.

So the reman Cummins is more power than Bob is probably going to use but it seems to be a very very good engine and tolerant of some underloading so I agree it would be a very very good choice.

Re other engines FF's IH would cost peanuts compared to the Cummins. And coming in the middle somewhere would be industrial engines like from Klassen/Yukon. Also I think that a turbocharged 150-200 cu in engine would be a bulletproof power choice but personally know of no modern engines in that range. Perhaps Volvo, Lugger, JD and others have that choice in engines. Westerbeke and Vetus are much like Yukon/Klassen type engines but w aluminum manifolds and better paint jobs.

There are probably lots of choices but the Cummins is going to be hard to beat. And may only be bested re cost. But a reman Cummins is no doubt cheaper than a Lugger or a Deere. And the Yukon/Klassen - Westerbeke are probably cheaper than the Deere. And who knows of 150hp engines that could/should be thrown into the pot?
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Old 11-27-2015, 11:57 AM   #36
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I have found reman and NOS engines to be easiest to price in Boats and Harbors.

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Old 11-27-2015, 12:13 PM   #37
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Very interesting FF,
I see a Willard ... inflatable.
And a motorsailer w a 60hp Lugger engine.
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Old 11-27-2015, 02:30 PM   #38
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There is a huge power range in some marine engines due to turbocharging. The NA Cummins 6B mentioned earlier makes 120 hp. With the same displacement, but apparently a new engine design in addition to the common rail injection, Cummins gets 480 hp out of a QSB 5.9 liter block.


You could almost certainly cruise the NA 120 hp Cummins all day long at 100% of power. But the QSB 480 should be limited to about 240 hp or 50% continuously. The high hp engine does have better metallurgy, much bigger cooling system, piston oil jet cooling, etc that allow it to hit 240 hp continuously and 480 for short periods.


But back to the OP's needs. A remanned Cummins 6BT 210 hp engine should cost somewhere in the low $20Ks with everything new. Transmission, mounts, adaptation of stringers, etc are all extra. I will bet that is competitive with a JD 4045, a rebuilt Lehman 135 or Perkins 6.354, etc. With all due respect to Eric, a marinized industrial engine leaves me a little cold. You might save a few bucks but if the shit hits the fan I would prefer to discuss it with Cummins rather than a PNW marinization shop.


The other alternative mentioned above is a JD 4045, NA if the 80 hp is ok or mildly turbocharged if you need more power. That engine should be able to run 100 hp continuously if turbocharged. The shorter engine will leave more room in the engine compartment and it is a balance shaft 4 cylinder so it should be smooth.


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Old 11-27-2015, 03:19 PM   #39
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I agree that there is little harm in having a larger motor, just don't forget the scope of modification needed to accommodate one. Boat diesel has some very good tools and resources.
The OP's motor, assuming a 6 cylinder, is about the same footprint as the 6BT. BTW, Art DeFever loved torque and cubes for offshore work. Low cruise RPM (1400 to 1800) with reserve power for big seas when needed served him and his 1,600 or so vessels designed very well.
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Old 11-27-2015, 04:20 PM   #40
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David,
I'm shocked. The rebuilt FL and 6-354 Perky would cost as much as a new 4045JD? Who would buy the old engines?
I hear you on the "industrial" connection. I prefer it though as I get a custom marineazation that way. Got a steel manifold, remote lube oil filter, bronze Jabsco seawater pump (via belt), pre-wiring, lube oil extractor and other features I've forgotten. And I have no reason to doubt the engine itself isn't excellent. And re "shit hits the fan" I'd rather deal w the old Klassen team than Cummins. I've seen first hand what they've done in northern Canadian and southern Alaskan waters over the years. But Bob or the average customer wouldn't have that benefit .. but the force would still be there .. at least w Yukon. But no offense David and in the general marketplace your point is well taken.

Being able to run the NA 120 Cummins at or near WOT would be essentially the same as getting a more powerful engine for Bob or anyone else walking this trail. Would be a big advantage to a single 36 or 42 GB as well.
I would think the turbo JD would have a bit better fuel burn running the turbo w a little boost. Think so? Fewer cylinders usually = greater efficiency also .. gas & diesel engines alike.
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