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Old 01-01-2015, 10:46 AM   #21
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great Thread Skinny

and all you TF guys thanks for sharing your knowledge!!
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Old 01-01-2015, 01:42 PM   #22
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Dimer2

I have not seen a fuel pump setup in push mode either unless there is a priming [only] pump setup to aid with air purging which is then taken off line once the engine is running. Often, and my setup is this way, The priming pump is BETWEEN the main mud/water filter and the final filter[s] on a bypass which is then shut off. Yes, a couple more ftgs but it sure helps at filter change time.

However, I noticed the pump positioning in the first series of schematics was in push mode and it is continued in push mode in the polishing circuit in the update.

It was intended simply as a caution to Skinny.
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Old 01-02-2015, 11:47 AM   #23
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Well Well Well...you guys gave me enough food for thought and you guessed it, went back to the drawing board. So how about this, simplicity at its finest. Everything in blue box is optional if I want a polish system which would also help with bleeding. Not required as I can just put a barb and use a bulb to bleed the filters.


I think I would install Fleetguard spin ons with a 30 micron bulk and a 2 micron secondary on each side of the system. That way if one setup plugs I can always switch to the other tank in an emergency. This also gives me an opportunity to isolate and change filters while still under way. I also still will have the 2 micron CAV filter on the Perkins. I did confirm on the interweb that the filter heads and filters can be installed on vacuum or pressure sides of the circuit so they are fully compatible in this configuration.


As noted if the genset ever developed an air/fuel leak, I placed a valve on the genset feed to isolate it when not operating or during a failure. Maybe a one way check valve would suffice for idiot proofing. Maybe some insight on this as my current setup just simply has feeds for Perkins and NextGen coming off the existing filter head with zero isolation involved.


The 4 way brass fitting more than likely can be eliminated or simplified on each side depending on the filter head I buy. Some have two outlet ports. I could put the vacuum gauge on one head and the bleed port on the other.





Thoughts? Happy New Years!
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Old 01-02-2015, 12:23 PM   #24
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Speaking of Doh, I wish I knew about this before I had mine fabricated....
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Old 01-02-2015, 01:02 PM   #25
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Well Well Well...you guys gave me enough food for thought and you guessed it, went back to the drawing board. So how about this, simplicity at its finest. Everything in blue box is optional if I want a polish system which would also help with bleeding. Not required as I can just put a barb and use a bulb to bleed the filters.


I think I would install Fleetguard spin ons with a 30 micron bulk and a 2 micron secondary on each side of the system. That way if one setup plugs I can always switch to the other tank in an emergency. This also gives me an opportunity to isolate and change filters while still under way. I also still will have the 2 micron CAV filter on the Perkins. I did confirm on the interweb that the filter heads and filters can be installed on vacuum or pressure sides of the circuit so they are fully compatible in this configuration.


As noted if the genset ever developed an air/fuel leak, I placed a valve on the genset feed to isolate it when not operating or during a failure. Maybe a one way check valve would suffice for idiot proofing. Maybe some insight on this as my current setup just simply has feeds for Perkins and NextGen coming off the existing filter head with zero isolation involved.


The 4 way brass fitting more than likely can be eliminated or simplified on each side depending on the filter head I buy. Some have two outlet ports. I could put the vacuum gauge on one head and the bleed port on the other.





Thoughts? Happy New Years!
How about a Perko 6-way fuel selector valve for the primary supply and return selection. That way, you couldn't inadvertently have the supply and return crossed. It also provides an 'off' position that could be useful.
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Old 01-02-2015, 03:18 PM   #26
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Dimer2

I have not seen a fuel pump setup in push mode either unless there is a priming [only] pump setup to aid with air purging which is then taken off line once the engine is running. Often, and my setup is this way, The priming pump is BETWEEN the main mud/water filter and the final filter[s] on a bypass which is then shut off. Yes, a couple more ftgs but it sure helps at filter change time.

However, I noticed the pump positioning in the first series of schematics was in push mode and it is continued in push mode in the polishing circuit in the update.

It was intended simply as a caution to Skinny.

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Old 01-02-2015, 03:46 PM   #27
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Engine and gen should not share a fuel supply. When running gen with main off, it can pull air backward through main injection pump, air loading it and then air loading gen. Since gen burns little fuel, it can be supplied from a dedicated tank.

Not clear which way the elec pump pumps: Torward the return fittings?? If so useless for repriming.

No return from gennie? If that is return going back to filter, should not do that, if air gets in system it will recycle. Should go to tank.

No valves to isolate primary filters from tanks.

Gen fuel filter redundant.
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Old 01-02-2015, 05:00 PM   #28
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Tee off your genset before the filters. Ball valves from Home Depot. Make sure they have the correct thread, do not mix tapered and straight threads. Keep your dedicated filter.

You only need two filters for your single engine, put them after your manifold or however you choose to select your tank.

A small pump is better than a rubber bulb for filling your filters as they hold lots of diesel and you will be pumping until your arm aches to fill two. Unless, of course, you have gravity feed, then all you need is a shutoff. I like a little pump inline to bleed the injectors, or just manually pump your on-engine pump.

In order to "polish" fuel you need a strong enough flow to stir up whatever lies on the bottom and keep it in suspension. Big, expensive fuel pump. Don't bother. As others have said here, get it polished by professionals and wait another 40 years to get it done again.

Return fuel should be selectable for adjusting trim, BUT if you have a closeable balance line, not needed.

If you don't want to spring for a manifold, use ball valves attached with adel (sp) clamps to a nice painted piece of plywood with some nice labels (see Dymo 5200 thread). You can use fuel hose with good quality clamps. Many have. Replace the drain plugs in your filters with taps to prevent the mess of spilling and handling fuel - if you choose the filters without a clear bowl you can use the taps for "sampling."

You should not run your filters sequentially, that is a waste of a filter. You need to use one at a time so if one plugs you can isolate it and select the other and keep running. Your on-engine filter is the secondary. If a filter plugs, with the ability to isolate it you can switch out the filter element while enroute, while someone else drives. This part is fun and requires practice, it only ever happens when it's really rough and you are on a lee shore.

The vacuum gauges are good, they provide advance warning of plugging. "Water in the fuel" warning fittings are also good and provide advance warning of a failure.
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Old 01-02-2015, 05:02 PM   #29
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The genset already has a tiny Racor which I could just leave as is. You are right, completely redundant. So I will leave that as optional. The big thing is that the Genset return goes to it which I'm not sure is correct or not.


As far as the Genset pulling fuel from the Perkins system, I'm sure the CAV on engine filter along with the Injection Pump have check valves to minimize this. Would putting a check valve in the T that feeds both of those eliminate those problems?


The fuel pump in this diagram would be pulling from the bleed valves and pushing into the tank returns. It is correctly installed this time as a puller through the filters
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Old 01-06-2015, 12:28 AM   #30
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""""""As far as the Genset pulling fuel from the Perkins system, I'm sure the CAV on engine filter along with the Injection Pump have check valves to minimize this. Would putting a check valve in the T that feeds both of those eliminate those problems?"""""

Don't count on it.
I would still get that gen out of there and on its own circuit. If for some reason there is a problem in the gen. side, ie: air leak, you will not have any warning of impending trouble, main engine shutdown, and you will not know what has happened without a lot of flapping around when the main dies.

Trouble usually comes in adverse conditions and you want to be able to change filters with a couple valves, not also have to trouble shoot a problem with the gen. circuit backfeeding air.

Plumb that gen separately.

And run that gen. return back to the tank on its own line. It may be that way now but doesn't mean it's correct. I don't know about your gen. but some fuel systems move a lot of fuel compared to what they burn and the return fuel is very warm or hot. Feed that warm/hot fuel back into the filter immediately and there could be a serious power loss. The return to tank allows the excess fuel to be cooled long before it can go back to the engine.

Ski is dead on that a dedicated return is better. His point is something that I had not considered but he has a huge amount of experience. You may not know but he is a top notch mechanic who spends a lot of time helping on Boatdiesel also and one of his specialties is generators.

When you get a vacuum guage get one with a telltale needle. That way you do not have to be in the engine compartment to read it while the engine is running. The telltale will stay at the highest reading untill you reset it.

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Old 03-11-2015, 07:36 PM   #31
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Hey guys!

Been away for awhile trying to focus on employment as it truly is one of the only ways to get ahead in boat life

As spring is approaching, so is getting my fuel system replumbed before launch. I decided to get away from the polish capability. With two large filter sets and good additive, it sounds like an unnecessary complication and expense.

I do want to take everyone's advise and get the genset and propulsion separated out on dedicated feeds and returns. I think a set of 3 way valves will accomplish this. I can run either engine on one tank and switch over to another to manage fuel balance or if one filter set becomes plugged. I also can run the genset off the opposing tank underway if necessary.

Let me know your thoughts as everyone has awesome input so far!

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Old 03-11-2015, 08:23 PM   #32
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That seems reasonable and simple. I'd use better valves then the ones pictured coming off your tank feeds.
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Old 03-13-2015, 03:09 AM   #33
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I still think you have too many filters. Just need 2 (and the on-engine). Three way ball valves are expensive, make a manifold and use on/offs. I prefer Racors because you can see the condition of the fuel, the Fleetguards you will have to change on a schedule. They aren't cheap, either.

Port tank, valve, tee for sight gauge if you want one, tee to connect both tanks, valve, to isolate filters for changing, Racor, Racor, valve for isolating, on-engine.

Starboard tank, valve, tee, connect to second tee.

I like a crossover from tank to tank for balancing. Run return lines directly to the tanks with a valve to send the fuel to whichever side you wish. I always left the crossover open.
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Old 03-13-2015, 09:24 AM   #34
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I still think you have too many filters. Just need 2 (and the on-engine). Three way ball valves are expensive, make a manifold and use on/offs. I prefer Racors because you can see the condition of the fuel, the Fleetguards you will have to change on a schedule. They aren't cheap, either.
I agree, that's a lot of filters. Mine plumbs 2 tanks through a Fleetguard, Racor, and on engine Filter/separator. 3 seems plenty and simple seems good. I'm going to plumb in a Walbro pump and a valve or two for a polishing system pulling through the fleetgaurd. This will be very simple to do and should cost <$200. With this I'll also be able to transfer fuel from Tank to tank, as well as prime the system so it will have a few additional benefits. $150 of that is the pump, the rest for some fittings.

On the Fleetguards, they do make a clear bowl model #FS-1242B (for Bowl).
This is what I use and have recently found a source to buy them for <$13 each which is quite a bargain. Large capacity too, so maybe a once a year change including use as a polishing filter. You can also plumb in a Vacuum gauge to determine change intervals. I already have the gauge head on my Racor as an indicator, but that filter is just cruising along with the additional Fleetguard primary. I just picked up 4 spares at that price!

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Old 03-13-2015, 12:10 PM   #35
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You shouldn't need a pump to transfer fuel, just a crossover. Unless you have a very powerful pump, capable of really stirring the fuel in the tank, you will not get "polishing."
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Old 03-13-2015, 12:35 PM   #36
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Hey guys!

Been away for awhile trying to focus on employment as it truly is one of the only ways to get ahead in boat life

As spring is approaching, so is getting my fuel system replumbed before launch. I decided to get away from the polish capability. With two large filter sets and good additive, it sounds like an unnecessary complication and expense.

I do want to take everyone's advise and get the genset and propulsion separated out on dedicated feeds and returns. I think a set of 3 way valves will accomplish this. I can run either engine on one tank and switch over to another to manage fuel balance or if one filter set becomes plugged. I also can run the genset off the opposing tank underway if necessary.

Let me know your thoughts as everyone has awesome input so far!

Skinny, what program are using to make these designs?
Curious as it would helpful in making a diagram of my on-board network.
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Old 03-13-2015, 01:17 PM   #37
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You shouldn't need a pump to transfer fuel, just a crossover. Unless you have a very powerful pump, capable of really stirring the fuel in the tank, you will not get "polishing."
32GPH at 12PSI into a 60 gallon tank (2)...I just want to keep everything moderately clean before the final filters while running.. I won't need to run the engine to do the transfer function either.

Not a perfect (or expensive) method, but I'll feel better about my fuel..:-) Beats nothing.
A few hours of the pump running at the dock once a week should be fine for my piece of mind....YMMV
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Old 03-13-2015, 02:24 PM   #38
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That's about 1/2 US gallon per minute which is about the rate I pee. I think you need a bigger pump.

Besides, what do you have in your tank that's so bad that you have to run your pump every week? Wouldn't it make more sense to just get the tank cleaned? It can go for years without getting any crud in it. Does North Carolina have a sh*tty fuel supply?

Anyway, it's certainly your prerogative, go crazy.
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Old 03-13-2015, 02:51 PM   #39
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That's about 1/2 US gallon per minute which is about the rate I pee. .
I can filter that, No problem. You never know when someone's gonna Pee in your fuel fill (or post)
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Old 03-13-2015, 04:49 PM   #40
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Greetings,
Mr. S. Would it not be simpler to instal a large crossover pipe between the 2 tanks, have the tanks professionally cleaned and keep a good stock of filters on board?
I was thinking the same thing.

My boats fuel system is simple.

Port engine is hard plumbed to the port tank
Starboard engine and generator are hard plumbed to the starboard tank.

We have a reversable fuel transfer pump for moving fuel between the tanks when necessary.
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