Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 11-11-2010, 03:19 PM   #1
TF Site Team
 
Larry M's Avatar
 
City: JAX, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Hobo
Vessel Model: Krogen 42-120
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,725
Replacing a Ford Lehman SP135

All this talk about old engines vs new engines got me thinking (not always a good thing).** Our SP135 is running great but I have wondered what it would cost*to rebuild or replace it.**I got an estimate from*a Ford Lehman dealer to do a total rebuild for $9,800.00.* This doesn't include removal or re-installation.

I have looked at Lugger*and John Deere Engines but haven't been able to get a handle on costs yet.

Has anyone out there replaced a Ford Lehman 120 or 135?* Total costs?* And how much more fuel efficient is the new engine?*

When I look at the new engines fuel curves I'm not sure I see any greater efficiency.* When I look at the Luger site, it looks like the best engine for us with out to much engine would be replacing our six cylinder with a four cylinder.

Any comments would be appreciated.

Larry/Lena
Hobo* KK42
La Cruz, Nayarit, MX
__________________
Advertisement

Larry M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2010, 06:41 PM   #2
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
RE: Replacing a Ford Lehman SP135

Lugger makes a great engine to replace an FL120 or FL135 with. It's naturally aspirated and develops 150 hp IIRC. This engine has been put into a number of GB36s and 42s in this area to replace the Lehmans. If it was at all cost-effective to replace our engines--- and it isn't--- this is the engine we would use.

There may be actual cost figures in the Grand Banks owners forum archives as several members have done this over the years but I don't recall any numbers myself. But it's not an inexpensive proposition. I believe--- but I could be way wrong--- that the Lugger engine itself is more than $20,000 and very possibly a lot more. But that's just the begining. You'll probably have to have new engine supports fabricated, either for the boat or for the engine. You may have to get a new transmission along with the engine. And then there is the labor to get the old engine out and the new one in, setup, and aligned.

The new engine may well require all new controls to be installed, too.

American Diesel marinizes a newer Ford diesel that is an exact drop in replacement for the FL120. I don't know if the engine mounts are the same for the FL135--- if they are than the new AD engine can be used to replace it, too. There are a few people on the GB owners forum who have replaced a failed Lehman in their twin with one of these AD engines. Despite the horsepower difference, this apparently works quite well. The AD is, like the Lugger, 150 hp IIRC.

The AD engine used to cost $12,000 but I've been corrected on that recently--- I think the engine is up near $14k or $15k today. The advantage is that you don't have to change the boat's engine-mounting setup. The AD engine will mount the same way the Lehman did.

I don't know anything about the base engine AD uses, so I don't know if it represents any sort of weight, smoothness, noise, efficiency, or extended service interval advantages over the old Lehmans. AD's website, unfortunately, doesn't provide much information so you'd be best off calling them.
__________________

Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2010, 07:16 PM   #3
Guru
 
Forkliftt's Avatar
 
City: Biloxi Mississippi
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Patricia Louise II
Vessel Model: 1983 42' Present Sundeck
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,433
RE: Replacing a Ford Lehman SP135

I would be curious what the base engine is. Fuel injector pump used, etc.
Forkliftt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2010, 07:23 PM   #4
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
RE: Replacing a Ford Lehman SP135

Here is the photo of the AD engine from their website.* I have been under the impression that they were using a currently manufactured engine as the basis for their marinization*but perhaps they're not.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	ad.jpg
Views:	3521
Size:	29.4 KB
ID:	3433  
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2010, 04:55 AM   #5
Guru
 
jleonard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,735
RE: Replacing a Ford Lehman SP135

I have read that the ADC engine is no longer available because the block is no longer made.
If it were me the replacement would be a Cummins 6BT "recon" package at 210 hp that comes with a ZF (Hurth) 63 gear.
jleonard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2010, 10:20 AM   #6
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,360
RE: Replacing a Ford Lehman SP135

I'm with Jay on* Cummins. Whether new or recon, you'd get a good warranty with the most popular marine engine out there.* Further, I'd take the vessel to Oxnard and have Tony Athens do the install. You'd get a great wriiteup* for the install on his website and add to*your boat's value.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2010, 02:07 PM   #7
TF Site Team
 
Larry M's Avatar
 
City: JAX, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Hobo
Vessel Model: Krogen 42-120
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,725
RE: Replacing a Ford Lehman SP135

Quote:
Larry M wrote:

*I got an estimate from*a Ford Lehman dealer to do a total rebuild for $9,800.00.* This doesn't include removal or re-installation.



I just heard back from Lugger/Northern Lights to replace our SP135.* Here are the numbers to compare for a rebuild or replacement:

G'day, Lena and Larry.
*
We would have several recommendations for you to consider, and really what it comes down to is your cruising speed expectations along with the required hours of durability, or cruising range either at normal operating RPM, or for extended range operations.

First, visit our web-site, www.northern-lights, and under Lugger engine models L1064A or L1066T engines copy the brochures, for reference. In addition, for purposes of consumption comparatives, remember that 1 gallon of diesel should produce 20HP at the transmission input shaft, with a 3% estimated parasitic loss in the transmission.

Taking your average fuel consumption of your Lehman Ford, probably somewhere between 2 to 3 gallons per hour, you were using 40-60 HP to cruise your KK-42 between 7-8 knots, and when you compare this to either engine performance, your would be operating your engine at less than 50% of the rated capacity for the engines.

The physical dimensions of the engines will compare very close to your existing Lehman, the L1064A engine would be shorter of course, since it is only a 4 cylinder engine. To elaborate further, both Lugger models begin life as John Deere Industrial engines, then we marinize the engines to suit our requirements which are somewhat different from the standard John Deere Marine engines, also available to you and standard on all current KK models. Since we have been marinizing the Deere engine for 25 years longer than Deere, we think we know something about what is required for our customers, so we continue to use their engine, done our way.

So you will have options, from very limited changes in the scope of supply between your existing engine, 12V, single high amperage alternator, HE cooling, Twin Disc or ZF transmission with a 2 1/2 to 1 reduction gear, wiring harness, panel, wet exhaust elbow, all matching what you have, so it can slip into the engine spaces without any severe compromises. But, what other changes would you wish to make, such as stabilizers, thrusters, dual alternators, drive options for other solutions, and etc, that you would want to incorporate into your repower project?

Pricing will range from $34,500 to $39,000, depending upon the model selected and the transmission requirements, and available accessory options tailored to your requirements.
Fit should be very close to your existing Lehman, and if you wish to receive a quotation, we would first request that your complete the application questionnaire available on the web-site.

I hope that you will continue your interest and respond with a quotation request that results from receiving your questionnaire. You may be directed to one of our offices that may be closer to you, so if an inspection and consultation is necessary, we can accommodate your interest and timing.

Thank you for your interest and we look forward to your response.


Regards, Steve Scholz,
Director, Asia Pacific Marine Market
*
Larry M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2010, 03:04 PM   #8
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
RE: Replacing a Ford Lehman SP135

Quote:
Larry M wrote:
Taking your average fuel consumption of your Lehman Ford, probably somewhere between 2 to 3 gallons per hour, you were using 40-60 HP to cruise your KK-42 between 7-8 knots, and when you compare this to either engine performance, your would be operating your engine at less than 50% of the rated capacity for the engines.
*


Thanks for posting the reply you got.* The part I quoted above was particularly interesting to read because this is exactly what was told to me when were inspecting, trialing, and having the boat we bought surveyed twelve years ago.* We had taken a good friend with us to California to look at the boat.* He was the head of Northern Lights's engineering department at the time and had been with the company almost since it's inception as Alaska Diesel Electric.* In talking about fuel consumption of the Lehmans in our boat, he gave me exactly the same numbers in terms of what he figured the fuel consumption would be an the horsepower the engines would be required to generate at cruising speed.* So points to Northen Lights for consistency

*
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2010, 03:16 PM   #9
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
RE: Replacing a Ford Lehman SP135

Quote:
Marin wrote:So points to Northen Lights for consistency*
H'mmm, sounds like they haven't updated the database in 12 years and still provide the numbers for a generic hull regardless of whether it's a KK or a GB.*
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2010, 04:22 PM   #10
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,360
RE: Replacing a Ford Lehman SP135

I'd bet that a reman with warranty Cummins 6BT would cost 50 to 60% the Lugger "quote". Remember your weight balance too, a lighter engine would require some lead to be added.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2010, 04:46 PM   #11
TF Site Team
 
Larry M's Avatar
 
City: JAX, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Hobo
Vessel Model: Krogen 42-120
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,725
RE: Replacing a Ford Lehman SP135

Quote:
sunchaser wrote:

Remember your weight balance too, a lighter engine would require some lead to be added.

The dry weight of the 6 cylinder SP135 is 1080 lbs less transmission.* Surprisingly, the weight of the Lugger 4 cylinder L1064A is around 1150 lbs.* The place I would have to add more weight would be my wallet.*

The idea though of going from a 6 cylinder to a 4 cylinder is*different though.

Larry/Lena
Hobo KK42
La Cruz, Nayarit, MX

*
Larry M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2010, 07:11 PM   #12
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
RE: Replacing a Ford Lehman SP135

Quote:
RickB wrote:Marin wrote:So points to Northen Lights for consistency*
H'mmm, sounds like they haven't updated the database in 12 years and still provide the numbers for a generic hull regardless of whether it's a KK or a GB.*
That I don't know. The Northern Lights friend gave us the numbers saying it was a very rough rule of thumb calculation.* In our case the "formula" was presented as a means of estimating how much fuel the boat we were looking at would burn at cruise.* I* wrote it down in an e-mail I sent to myself and saved.* Here it is.* The 1600 rpm = 60 hp is based on the Lehman engines that are in the boat.

1 gallon per hour per 20 horsepower.
1600 rpm = 60 hp
60 hp = 3 gallons
2 engines @ 3 gph each = 6 gph total @ 1600 rpm

I realize that a truly accurate calculation will be dependent on hull configuration and a bunch of oher variables.* But I'd be curious to know if this rough forumula is at least in the ballpark or is way off base.* It seems to jibe with what we have observed for fuel burn in our boat, but all we have to judge this by is a fuel gauge on the center tank that the engines draw from.* We don't have a FloScan or anything accurate like that.

*
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2010, 07:38 PM   #13
Guru
 
Codger2's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Country: US
Vessel Name: "Sandpiper"
Vessel Model: 2006 42' Ocean Alexander Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,420
RE: Replacing a Ford Lehman SP135

Quote:
Marin wrote:"We don't have a FloScan or anything accurate like that."
This certainly is not a criticism of those of you who don't have a FloScan or an
electronic engine but I can say without a doubt, FloScan is one of the best things
I ever added to my boat. No formulas, tables, keeping track of the fuel used vs
fuel taken on, etc. Just look at the gage (after you have calibrated the
instrument) and check the number. Not to mention that if you have a fuel
leak, etc; it will show you that too. They are not cheap, however, but their impact
on your situational awareness is dramatic.




*
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	dscn1156.jpg
Views:	247
Size:	45.1 KB
ID:	3439  
Codger2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2010, 07:53 PM   #14
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
RE: Replacing a Ford Lehman SP135

The problem I see with a Flowscan from your photo is that on our boat the needle would never move more than about its width. And I always get a bit of a heart skip when I look down and see a needle sitting on or near zero
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2010, 09:44 PM   #15
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,707
Replacing a Ford Lehman SP135

Marin,
How do you know the engine is producing 60 hp at 1600 rpm?

I think it's just a wild guess.

If you knew you were loaded at 60 hp you'd know you'd be burning very close to 3 gph.
But the only way to know how much power you were putting to the shaft is to measure the fuel consumption and apply the 20 hp per gallon rule of thumb. My boat burns 1 gph and uses about 18 hp. Since I've got a 37 to 40 hp engine most skippers would guess I'd be cruising at about the 28 hp level but in fact when I burn half as much fuel as my boat would burn at WOT (7knots) I loose less than a knot (6.15).

Larry,
When we repowered Willy the engine displacement, power and fuel consumption was about the same. Vibration and noise was very noticeably less.


-- Edited by nomadwilly on Friday 12th of November 2010 10:54:08 PM
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2010, 10:41 PM   #16
Guru
 
Codger2's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Country: US
Vessel Name: "Sandpiper"
Vessel Model: 2006 42' Ocean Alexander Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,420
Replacing a Ford Lehman SP135

Quote:
Marin wrote:The problem I see with a Flowscan from your photo is that on our boat the needle would never move more than about its width.
I have the 0-32 gph gage since at full throttle I will burn a little over 17 gph.
Floscan has units that are calibrated for low consuming engines where the gage graduations are totally different. Here's a twin scan model where the gage can be 0-16gph.



*


-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Friday 12th of November 2010 11:56:32 PM

-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Saturday 13th of November 2010 09:45:26 AM
Codger2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2010, 01:33 AM   #17
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Replacing a Ford Lehman SP135

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:

Marin,
How do you know the engine is producing 60 hp at 1600 rpm?



I don't. That was the figure quoted by our engineer friend from Northern Lights/Lugger.* It's also the same figure that has been quoted by our diesel shop, some independent mechanics we've met over the years, and American Diesel.* They all said it's an approximate figure, but they said that's the figure they use for rough fuel consumption calculations for this type of engine.* Notice that it's also within the range recently quoted to Larry by Northern Lights earlier in this discussion.* I figure all these folks must be basing it on something other than just a wild guess but it's not my area of expertise.

As I said, the fuel consumption on our boat seems to bear out the formula.* We don't have a FlowScan but based on what the fuel gauge does on the tank the engines draw from, it appears we are burning about 6 gph (total both engines) at 1650 rpm which is our typical cruise rpm.


-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 13th of November 2010 02:37:00 AM
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2010, 10:30 AM   #18
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,360
RE: Replacing a Ford Lehman SP135

All of the HP suppositions are well and good, but the question is what engines to consider. I still vote for the Cummins 6B . It will*loaf along all day at 1400 to 1600 RPM while delivering the needed HP. It is modern, sturdy, well under rated and extremely cost effective.*Hundreds of thousands (over a million probably) of the Cummins*6 series are in use and are the land based genset of choice for the 80 to 120 kw range operating at 1500 or 1800 RPM.

As an aside, 4 cylinder engines (inherent in the firing order) shake too much for me as compared to a 6.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2010, 11:10 AM   #19
TF Site Team
 
Larry M's Avatar
 
City: JAX, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Hobo
Vessel Model: Krogen 42-120
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,725
RE: Replacing a Ford Lehman SP135

Quote:
sunchaser wrote:

I still vote for the Cummins 6B . It will*loaf along all day at 1400 to 1600 RPM while delivering the needed HP. It is modern, sturdy, well under rated and extremely cost effective.*

Any idea what the cost of a new Cummins 6B is?

Larry/Lena
Hobo KK42
La Cruz, Nayarit, MX
*
Larry M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2010, 12:37 PM   #20
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,707
Replacing a Ford Lehman SP135

Larry,
I think the guys are getting mostly too far ahead. Since most yachts don't have the correct amount of power when new (over powered to way over powered) any repower should first consider how much power is truly needed as any excessive power is totally wasted. In Robert Beebe's book Voyaging Under Power the Krogen 42 (it looks like that's what you've got) lists 130 hp for power and the Nordhavn 46 has 101 hp and it's 5 tons and 4 feet more boat. The K 42 requires 50 hp to make 8 knots so I think there's no good reason to repower your K42 with any engine over 80 hp. Five hp per ton of displacement should be enough power for almost any full displacement boat. The 75 hp Deere would seem just fine but way expensive. I'd suggest looking at Sabre/Perkins, Isuzu, Mitsubishi, Vetus, Westerbeke or even a Volvo or Yanmar. And this by no means a comprehensive list of possibilities. Tom White, Marin and others will say I just don't understand and I think they don't understand but the bottom line is you will need to come to your own understanding about engines.
By the way Marin**** .....I just saw a GB 36 w twin 55 hp 4JH Yanmars this morning on Yachtworld.


-- Edited by nomadwilly on Saturday 13th of November 2010 01:41:57 PM
__________________

Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Lehman SP135 Adjusting engine valves Forkliftt Power Systems 33 04-25-2017 04:35 PM
Ford Lehman Runaway patzfan4eva Power Systems 63 12-04-2016 12:13 PM
Ford Lehman Parts patzfan4eva Power Systems 4 09-14-2011 07:40 AM
ford lehman 2728T knotheadcharters Power Systems 6 03-09-2011 04:24 AM
Ford Lehman Pushers should get on this Ragbagger Power Systems 3 12-10-2007 08:57 AM




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012