Re-Powering GB32 (1966)

[Keijo]

Forced to re-power. Considering Cummins 6BT vs John Deere 6068 TFM or 4045 TFM. Want 7 - 8 kts at 1500 - 1800 RPM's. Want an engine rated in that range. Any suggestions out there?


Keijo

 

[Nomad Willy]

Why that engine speed?

 

[Keijo]

The existing engine was smooth running (at all RPM's) at about 1.75 U.S. gal per hour at that boat speed and RPM. I'd like to stay close to that.

 

[jleonard]

A Cummins “reman” 6bt 210 is likely your lowest cost option of the three.
1900 to 2000 rpm is the sweet spot for those. You’ll be just starting to make some boost so it will be pretty efficient there.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Keijo,
Just for giggles I’d be planing on two 55hp (approx) engines like the JH na Yanmars. Bullet proof engine but would be at a higher more efficient rpm. There was a GB36 some time ago on YW w two of these 55hp engines. Sold fast too.

 

[DavidM]

Most GB 32s that have been repowered, did so with the 210 hp Cummins 6BT. I think later models of the GB 32 were delivered with that engine.

If you look at the 6BTs prop curve (attached) it pulls about 50 hp at 1,600 rpm. That should push you to hull speed (about 7.3 kts) or a little beyond.

Can't go wrong with a factory remanned Cummins.

David

 

[Comodave]

My concern would be the value of the boat and putting that much money into a wooden boat. You may loose whatever the engine costs upon resale. Maybe looks for a lower cost used engine even if it isn’t the exact engine you are looking for. A reman Cummins will probably be close to $20K. Can you recoup most of that when you sell the boat? Any of the Lehmans would be a good choice for that boat and you can probably get one for much less that a 6BT. And it would be more in line with the end value of the boat, maybe???

 

[Keijo]

I just spoke to the yard that's looking for a Cummins for me and they suggested looking at a Beta 150 hp, in-line six NA.

 

[Comodave]

BTW, I meant to ask, why are you being forced to repower?

 

[Nomad Willy]

Beta’s are expensive and British. I think the dealership network may be lacking. Parts may be expensive and not timely to get.

I agree w comodave. Way low on the cost effective curve.
Looking for a fairly good FL would probably be the only diesel option that would be recommendable. The sailboat engines are very available and (should I use the word cheap or just say inexpensive?).

 

[BruceK]

Way cheaper to repair or replace like for like FL. Think of all the other changes an engine brand change requires. Exhaust,mounts,electricals, instruments,etc. The FL is a good engine, adequate power, reliable,economical, parts available despite age, and no turbo.

 

[Choices]

I have been told the Lehman is still made by Ford in Turkey.

No brainier to go back original. Even if you were doing all the work.

 

[Ken E.]

Ditto the comments on stayin with Ford Lehman. That engine is right for the boat and putting some money in it would be the best alternative. Not to disparage reman Cummins 6bt's....I have them in my boat and they are an excellent repower engine. But repowering with a different engine and gear is expensive, probably much more than you'll anticipate.

 

[Keijo]

Current engine is a Ford Dagenham 6D turbocharged. They stopped making them in 1967. Rebuilt in 2014, some parts very difficult to source, some parts not available. 860 hours on rebuild. Recently a valve snapped, valve guide broke, bent push rod and damaged piston. No one can explain how this happened. Zero confidence in engine. No logic in repairing current engine. Want to keep the boat another 10-15 years. Willing to repower with new or recon engine. Don't want a 60+ year old engine when I finally go to sell. Beta dealer is 5 minutes away. Want a smooth running, efficient and dependable engine. Of course it will cost me - I just want the right engine.

 

[Comodave]

There are really no bad current diesel engines. There are differences yes. I really like the 6BTs, have one in our motorhome. But they will be pricey. I have Ford Lehmans in our boat and they are great. Probably Yanmar isn’t the best choice but not a bad engine. I would look for a good used Lehman. They are appropriate for your boat. There is excellent support from American Diesel and Bomac. You may find a used one for about half of a reman 6BT. I wouldn’t be concerned about a 60 year old engine in a 53 year old wood boat. Unfortunately when you get ready to sell a wooden boat of that vintage the engine will not significantly raise the resale value. A great engine will make your boat sell easier than another woody but I feel that it won’t significantly impact the value. The problem is the wood boat part. I am sorry to be blunt but that is the reality. Wood boats will become more difficult to sell and the prices will reflect that. Wood boats are getting difficult to insure and sometimes difficult to even get a yard to haul them. Anyway, good luck however you go.

 

[Ski in NC]

Current engine is a Ford Dagenham 6D turbocharged. They stopped making them in 1967. Rebuilt in 2014, some parts very difficult to source, some parts not available. 860 hours on rebuild. Recently a valve snapped, valve guide broke, bent push rod and damaged piston. No one can explain how this happened. Zero confidence in engine. No logic in repairing current engine. Want to keep the boat another 10-15 years. Willing to repower with new or recon engine. Don't want a 60+ year old engine when I finally go to sell. Beta dealer is 5 minutes away. Want a smooth running, efficient and dependable engine. Of course it will cost me - I just want the right engine.

I'm not an expert on the Fords, but have rebuilt a couple and worked on many. It sounds like you have a very early version of the Ford, and that is not the same engine as the later Fords marinized by Lehman. Strange also to have a turbo on an engine that early. I can imagine parts are hard to source.

The later Fords marinized by Lehman, and now ADC, seem to be well supported. It is also a good fit for you boat. Hull speed cruising will put the engine right in the middle of the power curve, making 40-60hp at an rpm close to peak torque rpm, which is nice place to operate an engine. So a more modern Ford should be on your list of options.

The Cummins 6BT 210 is also a good option. It is capable of making a lot more hp due to the turbo, but if you don't use the extra hp, the engine is very happy making 40-60hp and would be just as reliable as the Ford. Also there are bazillions of these engines out there and parts will be available, somehow, for the next 100yrs. Kinda like the Detroit 6-71 a few generations earlier.

There are Cummins 6B (non-turbo) out there, probably a better fit to your boat, but they were not many sold into the marine world. So a great engine, just not as easy to find. I do think someone was selling a marine version on some website (might be this one??), so do a little snooping.

I would not recommend a smaller 4cyl like the Yanmar 4JH. It is a very good engine, but tends to shake at low rpm and has a buzz vibration at high rpm. Just the nature of a 4cyl. And your cruise rpm will need to be higher than any of the 6cyl, putting you into that buzzy zone. No harm from that, but a 4cyl at 2400 is not as pleasant as a 6cyl at 1500-1800.

I am not familiar with the 150hp Beta. I would like to know who makes the base engine and whether it is turbo. Could be a good engine like their Kubota offerings, but could be something more obscure like some Euro car engine (???)

I too would not want to put much effort into rebuilding a 50yr old Ford IF parts are hard to come by.

 

[FF]

50 Hp at cruise RPM should not be that hard to do.

More modern engines are far smoother at higher RPM than ancient tractor motors.

If you could go for a ride on a boat with a modern engine you might find the noise and vibration quite acceptable .

This would allow a smaller, lighter less co$tly engine to be installed.

The specified reduction gear would be deeper to maintain the same shaft speed as current cruise, and you could keep the same running gear.

Betamarine US Ltd. | Distributors for Kubota Based Marine

https://www.betamarinenc.com

If you prefer a bigger engine John Deere sells to the farm market factory rebuilds , way lower than marine , and a couple of times a year the sale requires no core turn in.

 

[sunchaser]

Keijo
Has Gartside a Beta 150 HP install they can point to? It would be nice to see one in the flesh and do some measuring to see how engine, gears and mounts all match up to your existing setup.

Then check a "modern" Lehman and Cummins 5.9 for same. Is it safe to assume your tanks are in good shape or is this an opportunity to replace them as well?

 

[DavidM]

Lots of good info here. Let me summarize:

1. Don't try rebuilding your old Lehman. No parts availability and you don't know what else could be lurking in this 50 YO engine.

2. A newer rebuilt Ford Lehman would be a good choice. Are the block and engine mounts the same which would make it a drop in swap. But no new ones are available and completely rebuilt ones cost almost as much as #3.

3. A remanned Cummins 6BT is a great choice.

4. A Beta 150, based on a 6.7 liter IVECO-FPT block would work fine and a dealer is close by for service. But the purchase price will be close to the Cummins and lack of US wide support may limit resale value.

Go with the Cummins.

David

 

[Ski in NC]

I looked at the Beta website, biggest offering I saw was a 99hp 3.8liter Kubota turbo 4cyl. Is that what y'all are looking at?

 

[Portage_Bay]

I am not able to find the Beta 150 on US web sites. It does show up on the UK web sites

https://betamarine.co.uk/portfolio-item/beta-150/

 

[Portage_Bay]

Forced to re-power. Considering Cummins 6BT vs John Deere 6068 TFM or 4045 TFM. Want 7 - 8 kts at 1500 - 1800 RPM's. Want an engine rated in that range. Any suggestions out there?


Keijo

If still available, I first stumbled across this engine quite a while ago, it may be a good fit for your boat. Ford Lehman 2725E $6,950

 

[DavidM]

I looked at the Beta website, biggest offering I saw was a 99hp 3.8liter Kubota turbo 4cyl. Is that what y'all are looking at?

Ski the Beta US website which is based in Arapaho, NC only shows up to the Beta 105. But the English site and the PNW one, both show the Iveco based Beta 150. I suspect the NC guys don't have much need for the big Beta so they don't feature it on their site. But I am sure that you could buy one from Stanley in NC.



See https://betamarinepnw.com/beta-150hp-marine-diesel-engine/



David

 

[Marlinmike]

Given this doesn't sound like a cost or return on investment issue I'd go with the 210 6B Cummin's, support and parts everywhere, not that you would need much, I would worry about getting support for the Beta outside your area.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Everybody always says Cummins like God has a Cummins.
Sometimes I wonder if they’re just an average engine but very popular cuze everybody in trawler land raves about them.

But I notice nobody mentioned the cost. Must be over $20,000. And how much is a wood GB32 worth w new engine and/or w/o ?

And re the rebuild the old FL one of the Willard 30 skippers w the original Perkins engine experienced a broken crankshaft running up Chatham Strait in Alaska. Old engines are old.

 

[rslifkin]

I think the Cummins comes up often for a couple of reasons: the 6BT and its derivatives are a solid engine for its power range. They're common enough and modern enough to have good parts availability. And you can get a reman one from Cummins, so less $$$ than a new one and you can get a reman with mechanical injection if desired for a repower.

 

[Gdavid]

I suspect the Beta 150 not being listed for US sale as a emission issue. The smaller engines have less scrutiny for EPA but the larger ones receive more scrutiny and there is more expense in getting them certified. It doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't run clean, just that the return on investment for getting it through thru the certification process isn't worth the effort for a relatively small manufacturer.

 

[Marlinmike]

Not everyone has return on investment in the equation:

Very close friend had a 1977 33' Chris Craft, not exactly top of the line boat or highly demanded, he loved it and repowered with new Yanmar's and NL gen, the yard told him he would not get the money back, he didn't care, he wanted a reliable boat that he could cruise in and cruise he and his family did, they had a great time cruising everywhere for years. He passed away at age 54, in the end it was money well spent...

 

[sunchaser]

I suspect the Beta 150 not being listed for US sale as a emission issue. The smaller engines have less scrutiny for EPA but the larger ones receive more scrutiny and there is more expense in getting them certified. It doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't run clean, just that the return on investment for getting it through thru the certification process isn't worth the effort for a relatively small manufacturer.

The Beta 150 is Euro emissions compliant, EPA and Tier 4. Being naturally aspirated and low HP for its swept volume, it should be a long lived engine. Hopefully Beta and Iveco will be a good pairing to compete in the Euro emissions compliant marine markets against the likes of long established Perkins Sabre and Scania. It is a big world out there, with Cummins not the only game in town.

 

[Gdavid]

The Beta 150 is Euro emissions compliant, EPA and Tier 4. Being naturally aspirated and low HP for its swept volume, it should be a long lived engine. Hopefully Beta and Iveco will be a good pairing to compete in the Euro emissions compliant marine markets against the likes of long established Perkins Sabre and Scania. It is a big world out there, with Cummins not the only game in town.

Good to know and definitely not the first time I've been wrong. I'm a married man after all.