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Old 01-29-2015, 09:54 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by gadenors View Post
Best and effiency for bigger tugs and trawlers.

Sometime ago in december 2014 Guru FF. had interesting post about
CPP propeller.
I have digged and found those mails to get more info, for this matter.

www.frydenbosabb.no Sabb has dealer in USA FL Leerburg.
ask: www sabbamerca@aol.com
www.westmekan.no
Westmekan offer fixed adjustable propeller. (prop.pitch on a slip.)
prop.dia down to 600 mm. = 24" dia. shaft 50 mm.= 2 "

I strongly believe that with HP. from 80 HP up to say 300 HP.
will have a great advantageous, and a far better economy.

Why not give it a try, we seamen are conservative I know, bu still.!
Why all this is here: the alphatronic, seek and you,ll find.
like ART said aotomatic.
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Old 01-29-2015, 10:01 AM   #22
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automatic propulsion, as ART. wrote.

ART.

Look for ALPHATRONIC in Google, and it her all rigth.

No more fuss, + misunderstanding.

I know, not for us common boat-folks.
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Old 01-29-2015, 10:17 AM   #23
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alphatronic 3000 PSC propellergear.

Sorry folks, a Little to hasty.

You have to seek Google: "alphatronic 3000 PCS,"

Its an B&W Alpha diesel production.

Now German: M.A-N.

- the system has worked in many years with succes, since 1981.
It feel and acts. .. like automatic drive in cars.!
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Old 01-29-2015, 10:44 AM   #24
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But Ski how efficient is the CPP?.

If you loose 10% efficiency from being mismatched (as in a straight drive) and you loose 10% efficiency w a CPP then it's a waste of money .. efficiency wise.

How would diesel electric compare to the CPP?

I suspect that the straight drive is so simple and inexpensive it can't be beat. Anything but straight drive is too expensive and too complicated.
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Old 01-29-2015, 10:53 AM   #25
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How about an old Chevy 2 speed Powerglide automatic transmission?
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Old 01-29-2015, 11:05 AM   #26
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Heck - Why not also consider Buick Turbo 400 3-speed automatic. Both that and the 2-speed "slip n' slide" Powerglide automatic transmissions are nearly bullet proof. In marine service I doubt they would or could experience the same jolting effects as on pavement with young-crazies performing spin-out doughnuts and straight-on peel-outs all over the place.

Seems to me that with bit of engineering these type automatics could be modified to suite marine needs on small to mid sized power boats???

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Old 01-29-2015, 11:43 AM   #27
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A quick search for "2-speed automatic transmission" brought up this Velvet Drive Electronically-Controlled 2-Speed Transmission, which is used for airport ground support vehicles. Power input is up to 115hp @ 3000rpm, but the ratios are 1.47:1 and 1:1.

There is another 2-speed model with more favorable ratios that could also be a candidate.

I'm sure there are many more industrial power transmission solutions that could be applied to the recreational marine industry if one had the time and money to experiment.

Or, something like the Nissan CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission) integrated with the electronic control systems on the latest diesel engines which would always optimize the shaft speed to the sweetest spot on the fuel map.

I suppose it would be fun to try, if, you know, time and money were no object . . .
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Old 01-29-2015, 12:05 PM   #28
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A quick search for "2-speed automatic transmission" brought up this Velvet Drive Electronically-Controlled 2-Speed Transmission, which is used for airport ground support vehicles. Power input is up to 115hp @ 3000rpm, but the ratios are 1.47:1 and 1:1.

There is another 2-speed model with more favorable ratios that could also be a candidate.

I'm sure there are many more industrial power transmission solutions that could be applied to the recreational marine industry if one had the time and money to experiment.

Or, something like the Nissan CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission) integrated with the electronic control systems on the latest diesel engines which would always optimize the shaft speed to the sweetest spot on the fuel map.

I suppose it would be fun to try, if, you know, time and money were no object . . .
Larry - I'm surprised some marine engine/trany manufacturer has not already experimented. Maybe they did and found the automatic cost too much or performance not well enough effective?? sure would like to know the results, if any exist.
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Old 01-29-2015, 12:32 PM   #29
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You guys are getting crazy out in left field. The old Chevy Powerglide transmission had a horribly loose torque converter that wasted 20% of the energy transmitted. And almost all automotive transmissions are 20% duty cycle devices, ie they are designed to operate at an average load of 20% of max. Marine applications need at least a 50% duty cycle.

But the CVT transmission, electronically controlled to always operate at the sweet spot is a good idea. My 2013 Nissan Pathfinder has one and as a result it has one of the best fuel milage ratings in its class. It is always at the optimum ratio and the steel belt drive is apparently as efficient as gears.

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Old 01-29-2015, 01:10 PM   #30
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You don't need a torque converter to use a car auto tranny in a boat. The wet clutches are super similar to the ones in Velvet Drive. With some clever finagling you can render the torque converter into the mechanical equivalent of a brick, then modify the valve body to select the gear you want.

Harker's island boys have been running car engines and trannies in boats for as long as cars have had engines and trannies.

Auto trans, std trans, whatever they can find.

You do need a thrust bearing, though.

Dave- you drive a CVT? I think you need to turn in your Gearhead card!!!
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Old 01-29-2015, 01:50 PM   #31
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You don't need a torque converter to use a car auto tranny in a boat. The wet clutches are super similar to the ones in Velvet Drive. With some clever finagling you can render the torque converter into the mechanical equivalent of a brick, then modify the valve body to select the gear you want.

Harker's island boys have been running car engines and trannies in boats for as long as cars have had engines and trannies.

Auto trans, std trans, whatever they can find.

You do need a thrust bearing, though.

Dave- you drive a CVT? I think you need to turn in your Gearhead card!!!
Now, that's what I'm talken bout!!
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Old 01-29-2015, 04:47 PM   #32
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Dave- you drive a CVT? I think you need to turn in your Gearhead card!!!
In so far as 21st century automobiles are concerned, I turned in my gearhead card a long time ago!!! There isn't much you can do yourself with today's cars, so I just gave up.

BTW, I do think that the CVT is the wave of the future: efficient and simple- in principle at least. We even tow a 3,500 lb trailer with ours and so far no issues in 25,000 miles. It adjusts the ratio to the load seamlessly, just like you would want for a boat transmission except on the car it does it in a fraction of a second.

At least for now, my boat diesel engine is all mechanical and I use that to keep my gearhead card current.

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Old 01-29-2015, 05:08 PM   #33
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CVT has been tempting engineers for at least a century. Want to waste some serious time, try to do a patent search on those. More Rube Goldbergs out there than you could imagine.

The belt trick does work, either pushing or pulling. But getting into the details, it is not easy to manage wear on either the belt or the sheaves. And once worn, the smoothness is gone. I have not looked into the guts of the latest ones, but somehow they seem confident they licked the wear issue. At least enough to go to market.

Just joking about the card.

Stil crunching gears in my car and truck. Dinosaurs.
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Old 01-29-2015, 06:02 PM   #34
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I like Dinosaurs!
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Old 01-29-2015, 06:58 PM   #35
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Don't even think of using a car Tx as reverse gear will be so low geared you'll run around slamming into floats.
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Old 01-29-2015, 07:43 PM   #36
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For about $35k plus another 15k for installation you can buy a Hundested propeller.
My dock neighbour has one on his 40' Bruckmann
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Old 01-29-2015, 08:02 PM   #37
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Old 02-24-2015, 07:26 AM   #38
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I have a Land and Sea Torque Shift for an OMC V6 outboard if any one is interested. I had it on a 26' Aquasport with a 175 hp. It would start out at 9" pitch and give you one heck of a hole shot and then the RPM;s would remain the same and the pitch of the prop would change as the torque reduced. They were completely adjustable by changing the springs. I don't know why but it is still on the shelf in my shop.
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Old 02-24-2015, 10:19 AM   #39
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Don't think there's any of these two in one out gears currently availible though.
This whole topic was discussed 5-6 years ago on TF. Another variant on the drive system comes from Ramsey Silent Chain located in one of the Carolinas, who built a combining gearbox drive system for a prototype Navy fast assault boat some ten years ago. The boat was about a 40' twin prop with four big Yanmars. Two engines per shaft driving into a conventional transmission. The chain boxes were a "stacked"/tandem arrangement (one in front of the other) bolted to the input end of the conventional transmission. Fairly thin and light, pressure lubed, with a roughly 6 inch wide chain carrying the load of each engine. Overrunning clutches to account for one engine off line. The concept allowed for many drive system variations....one small engine and one large, for example. I contacted them and spoke with a "real engineer" about building a single engine to two prop design. Turns out they had built and installed just such an animal in a 46' twin screw motoryacht.

The cases could be made to order....sprockets could be swapped around with relative ease to change ratios. I was investigating a 350 HP single in a twin shaft boat, which would have required 4 inch wide chains to carry the load in the event of a sudden failure of one chain. The transfer cases were simple and pressure lubed. No problem...just money.
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Old 02-24-2015, 10:32 AM   #40
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Interesting skid.
Sounds like some of the gears that were available for the war stuff to multiply the power of DD that powered almost everything at the time.

A back yard twin shaft single engine arrangement could be cobbled together w toothed belts like the HTD. One would probably need to do w/o counter rotating props though.
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