Propane Injection to Diesel Engines

[brian eiland]

I just saw this posting on another forum, and wondered if any have experimented with such an idea??

The dune buggy runs on straight propane. Forklift parts, bought used for cheap. Forklifts have a decent safety record, and I have totaled one of these, with no leaks to the system. Hose routing, and a good tank cage are important. There are commercially avalible propane injection kits for diesel trucks. You can use it like nitrous oxide, on a button for instant power, or run a valve controlled by the throttle. From there it can be adjusted to either use the propane to boost power, or to clean up the smoke, lower egt's and use less diesel. I know people who use it on diesels because they will get twice the mileage on the diesel, while using propane. Usually 5-7 gal of propane will last a full tank of diesel. It's cheaper and cleaner, so even without the increase in mileage, it would be worth it. It also helps decarbon high mileage engines.

 

[Anode]

I regularly drive a diesel truck with propane injection. It's owned by a propane company and the propane is readily available where the truck is parked nightly.
I can attest the the performance of the diesel engine with 200,000 miles on it is enhanced by the propane in both acceleration and power. I have no way in knowing how much. I just know it's noticeably better when turning the switch on and off. Engine life is another unknown factor. Mileage does not seem to increase.
I wouldn't do it to my engine (unless I owned a propane company) the hassle would out way any benefits.

 

[jleonard]

Many of the Dodge-Cummins truck guys have used propane injection to boost power mostly for drag racing or for dyno runs/bragging rights.
Never heard anyone say it doubles their mileage, usually they say it's not really worth the effort for daily driving. At least that's what I recall after reading many threads on the TDR site.

 

[Edelweiss]

LPG and CNG conversion for cars and trucks is all the rage again. Seems to come around every 15 - 20 years. My only experience with it, in motor vehicles, was with fork lifts and it seemed to be straight forward enough. It's greatest advantage, the lower exhaust emissions meant we could run it indoors much safer. It would require a complete redesign of the service station delivery system to make it worthwhile for general public use. I don't see that happening anytime soon.

 

[BigJim]

Where is the Propane injected? Air side or fuel?

 

[Xsbank]

My neighbour's emergency generator (they have an elevator) runs on natural gas.

 

[ksanders]

LPG and CNG conversion for cars and trucks is all the rage again. Seems to come around every 15 - 20 years. My only experience with it was with fork lifts and it seemed to be straight forward enough. It's greatest advantage, the lower exhaust emissions meant we could run it indoors much safer. It would require a complete redesign of the service station delivery system to make it worthwhile for general public use. I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Thats because Natural gas is the chaapest BTU energy source adaptable to enfines we have.

If a therm (100,000 btu) of natural gas cost $1.00

Then gasoline at 114,000 btu per gallon would have to cost $1.14 per gallon to be equal cost per btu.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Propane is less efficient on most cars than gasoline. Gasoline is much less efficient that diesel. I don't see how injecting propane into a diesel OR gas engine would make it more efficient. And efficiency should be a matter of how many dollars of fuel is used for a given amount of work.

And Kevin I don't think how many therms is an issue unless you're talking about heating a house. I know burning propane in a gasoline engine burns more fuel for a given amount of power and produces less power.

But I am a big fan of propane used in engines.

 

[LaBomba]

I love propane injection!

 

[BigJim]

The reason off road folks run propane is because they run at many off cambor angles and the gas regulator is better at getting the fuel into the combustion chamber.

And a big and is that Propane is naturally 110 Octane. Near the AV gas.

 

[CPseudonym]

I had a propane utility bed work truck for a while. Big PIA to deal with fueling. CNG would be better IMO only IF you had a fueling station.

Finding a propane vendor that actually fills rather than exchanging the bottles sounds easy until you need to every couple days.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Craig,
I fueled several trucks every day w propane and didn't consider it a PITA. I was used to it though. And getting payed for it. CNG IS a PITA as far as I know. Not practical unless you have an active fleet of vehicles.

Big Jim I remember the octane part. Propane converted gasoline engines require much more ignition advance except for the very top end and there a few degrees retarded is usually called for.

Before Gasoline fuel injection the thing I liked best about propane is the way the engine ran when it was cold. For about 2 years I not only drove trucks on propane but my personal vehicle was on propane too. Got 98% of my propane from one source and only once did we need over $100 to pay the monthly bill. That was in the mid 80s and I drove a lot .. as I do now.

 

[FF]

Propane is just more fuel in the cylinder , so more power.

You get what you pay for in power propane or diesel.

For the real wack jobs look up the endless proponents of Browns Gas,

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   "Brown's Gas" is oxyhydrogen with a 2:1 molar ratio of H2 and O2 gases, the same proportion as in water. It is named after Yull Brown, who claimed that it could ...‎Properties - ‎Production - ‎Applications - ‎Fringe science and fraud
   
   
   
2. Images for browns gas
   
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   Jun 25, 2008 - Uploaded by lowestgasprices
   How to Make Any Car Run on Water: Run your Car on Water! Lots of people are interested in browns gas ...
   
   
5. http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/forum/218/browns-gas-and-wikipedia-fraud.2012-10-28
   
   

 

[brian eiland]

Where is the Propane injected? Air side or fuel?

...from that same fellow that contributed the original posting I started the subject thread with

"To answer one of the questions I saw, in diesel applications, I've seen propane metered in pre-turbo, and I've seen it injected post turbo. Just to the air, not direct into the cylinder through an injector. The cold propane helps cool the intake charge. That I what I would like to see though, a true dual fuel. LPG directly injected. I think the combo of fuels compliments each other well."http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS

 

[Baker]

Y'all either don't understand or are getting off topic. The OP wasn't talking about powering your engine strictly with propane. He was talking about augmenting the fuel air mixture of. Your Diesel engine with propane...much like drag racers use nitrous oxide in gasoline engines. Propane causes a much more complete burn of the fuel mixture therefore making it a more efficient process. Whether that efficiency equates to less overall cost, who knows. But in theory, it actually seems like it is better for the engine since more stuff is burned leaving less crap in your engine....and also less black smoke and lower emissions.

So don't dismiss it outright. Sounds kinda interesting to me because I have a boat that would utilize it. It is for engines that are turbocharged and under load. I don't think a Lehman would benefit from it.... And in the end, no I wouldn't use it. I just. Think the theory of it is interesting.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Brian propane is ingested into an engine as a gas .. not a liquid and if you compress it it will be a liquid. So perhaps it could be injected or even mixed w the diesel .. sounds scary.

A diesel engine properly loaded burns all the fuel injected. An over loaded (over propped) diesel boat will inject more fuel than it can burn because the prop slows down the engine speed (rpm) but the injector pumps more fuel into the cylinder than at WOT propped right and that is the most fuel the engine can burn. So adding more diesel fuel will not increase power.

However if propane is added, the burning diesel should ignite it and it should burn. The racers ARE apparently using it so the burning propane must add power and perhaps the mixture of the two fuels are independent.

The biggest problem I see is pre-ignition. Even though the propane has a high octane diesels have very high compression ratios.

The picture of the truck drag racing belching all that black smoke makes me wonder why is there black smoke? It would seem it could only come from the diesel.

Anode wrote;

"I regularly drive a diesel truck with propane injection"
Never heard of such a thing. Are you sure? Sounds like you could be talking about a gasoline truck w propane as an alternate fuel ... a "dual fuel" engine. I'm very familiar w those but haven't heard of propane injection on a diesel. I'm probably getting so old new stuff os going right over my head.

But what could be the advantage to trawler guys like us?

By the way w VW diesels they call them "TDI". What's the "I" for?

 

[Baker]

I'm probably getting so old new stuff os going right over my head. ?

Yep.... Eric, just google propane injection on diesels engines and see if an old dog can learn a new trick!

 

[Nomad Willy]

What's this "old dog" talk .... I'm only 73.

The "old" I can handle but I resent the dog part.

 

[SomeTexan]

Brian propane is ingested into an engine as a gas .. not a liquid and if you compress it it will be a liquid. So perhaps it could be injected or even mixed w the diesel .. sounds scary.

A diesel engine properly loaded burns all the fuel injected. An over loaded (over propped) diesel boat will inject more fuel than it can burn because the prop slows down the engine speed (rpm) but the injector pumps more fuel into the cylinder than at WOT propped right and that is the most fuel the engine can burn. So adding more diesel fuel will not increase power.

However if propane is added, the burning diesel should ignite it and it should burn. The racers ARE apparently using it so the burning propane must add power and perhaps the mixture of the two fuels are independent.

The biggest problem I see is pre-ignition. Even though the propane has a high octane diesels have very high compression ratios.

The picture of the truck drag racing belching all that black smoke makes me wonder why is there black smoke? It would seem it could only come from the diesel.

Anode wrote;

"I regularly drive a diesel truck with propane injection"
Never heard of such a thing. Are you sure? Sounds like you could be talking about a gasoline truck w propane as an alternate fuel ... a "dual fuel" engine. I'm very familiar w those but haven't heard of propane injection on a diesel. I'm probably getting so old new stuff os going right over my head.

But what could be the advantage to trawler guys like us?

By the way w VW diesels they call them "TDI". What's the "I" for?

I am the one who Brian quoted. I have run several vehicles on straight propane, and I have used it on diesels as an extra fuel. In a gasoline type of engine, the carb is simply replaced with a propane mixer. Performance will suffer unless compression is raised or more boost is delivered due to the higher octane. Propane mixes well with the air, so long intake runners will help low end torque without fuel atomization issues. It is also cold, that helps with intake temps, and can eliminate the need for an intercooler. It burns clean, and cooler than gasoline, making it great for aircooled engines. Got propane.com has kits, and some info on their site, but it's cheaper to build your own out of forklift parts.

In the diesel arena, there are different set ups. I've seen it run off a button, like the typical ricer's "nos" system, but I've always run it into the intake, post turbo. Controlled by the throttle, it sends more propane when I send more diesel with my foot. I could detune the injection pump and make up for it with propane to save fuel, but I usually don't mind a little extra power. Even then, it takes less throttle to maintain speed, so I did notice mileage improvements. It cleared up any smoke (I tune for just a poof to spool the turbo) and gave me 2-300 degree lower exhaust temps under a load. I also used a similar propane system on a 1,700,000 mile cummins engine that had awful blow by. After 2000 miles on propane, she ran like new, no noticeable blow by. There used to be performance propane kits for diesels all over, but it looks like nitrous has taken over. One kit I spotted with a quick search, Propane Injection Systems, fuel saving in Diesel, Gas, Turbocharged Engine Trucks & water vapor air fuel system separators They seem to support from tractors to trucks.

 

[brian eiland]

Thanks for joining in there SomeTexan, and welcome to the forums. I think you can probable explain best your results a bit better than I, as I'm not an 'engine guy' ....just know enough to get into trouble

But I did think your experiences with this 'technology' deserves some discussion.

Cheers, Brian

 

[hollywood8118]

By the way w VW diesels they call them "TDI". What's the "I" for?

Intercooled

We have a TDI vdub that has been seriously pumped up..
As long as it is warmed up it will boost 15psi + with the go peddle mashed to the floor. When this occurs it belches black smoke on a smaller scale than the race trucks or tractor pullers
In race or performance diesels this is known as " overfueled "

HOLLYWOOD

 

[LaBomba]

By the way w VW diesels they call them "TDI". What's the "I" for?

Turbocharged Direct Injected

 

[SomeTexan]

Thanks for joining in there SomeTexan, and welcome to the forums. I think you can probable explain best your results a bit better than I, as I'm not an 'engine guy' ....just know enough to get into trouble

But I did think your experiences with this 'technology' deserves some discussion.

Cheers, Brian

I'm not gonna lie, I'm not a pro when it comes to propane. I first ran it trying to make a carb'ed big block trail rig that had flooding issues. Worked great, but it did cost a little power. I looked into it and found that propane had a higher octane. Slapped another set of heads on that brought the compression up to just under 12 to 1. Ran great after that, and no longer overheated in slow sections. By the time I got into playing in the dunes, I had a plan for using propane. Cheaper and easier than fuel injection, and will support more power than pump fuel. I have played with it on diesels, but there are better options for overall power increase. Now, if I had a machine shop, foundry, and a few engineers working for me, I would give it a shot again, but I would want to directly inject it. 2 injectors, one diesel and one LPG, 2 injection pumps, both on seperate throttles. A computed controlled system would be great for efficency, but is beyond my understanding at this time.

 

[SomeTexan]

Intercooled

We have a TDI vdub that has been seriously pumped up..
As long as it is warmed up it will boost 15psi + with the go peddle mashed to the floor. When this occurs it belches black smoke on a smaller scale than the race trucks or tractor pullers
In race or performance diesels this is known as " overfueled "

HOLLYWOOD

You need some pump tuning. My old tdi saw 55psi daily, with a poof of black until the turbo spooled. Then it was just a haze. The vw tdi is the easiest engine I've ever messed with to over fuel and lose boost. Granted, I know the older mechanically injected versions well, but the electronic ones I haven't messed with much. I was going to swap that engine into my audi TT Quattro, but sold it instead.

In sled pull and drag racing, many classes require single turbos, so a massive one is run. These take a bit to spool, and lose boost easily. Watch a video of them staging. Once they are spooled up, the black starts to lighten up. It goes away if they spay nitrous. At that level, they are a nightmare to drive. One little issue can end up with parts scattered everywhere.

 

[SomeTexan]

Turbocharged Direct Injected

I thought the older (rabbit,golf) models were idi, meaning turbo diesel indirect, and the moniker was brought back with the early 90's version. The only older vw diesel I worked with got swapped into a samurai buggy and left stock.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Some Texan,

Very interesting indeed.
What percentage of propane do you inject? And at what throttle settings or loads? How do you compute "economy"? Has fuel injection timing been optimized for the added propane?
Has anyone tried this P injection w a gasoline engine?
I would think one would want a normal diesel fuel mixture for starting but perhaps diesel and part propane could make starting easier. ???
Have you ever experimented w minimum amounts of propane? Sort-of a propane engine w diesel ignition through timed injection.
What problems or/and irregular running have you observed?
This could have a wonderful effect on the problems (to the extent they exist) of very light loading our engines on boats or even burn the extra fuel injected from over propping. Then some real increases in efficiency could come to pass.

I have an old Buick I'd like to change to propane. The biggest expense for that would be the tank.

 

[SomeTexan]

Some Texan,

Very interesting indeed.
What percentage of propane do you inject? And at what throttle settings or loads? How do you compute "economy"? Has fuel injection timing been optimized for the added propane?
Has anyone tried this P injection w a gasoline engine?
I would think one would want a normal diesel fuel mixture for starting but perhaps diesel and part propane could make starting easier. ???
Have you ever experimented w minimum amounts of propane? Sort-of a propane engine w diesel ignition through timed injection.
What problems or/and irregular running have you observed?
This could have a wonderful effect on the problems (to the extent they exist) of very light loading our engines on boats or even burn the extra fuel injected from over propping. Then some real increases in efficiency could come to pass.

I have an old Buick I'd like to change to propane. The biggest expense for that would be the tank.

The set up I learned on the old hotshot trucks was just an impco vaporizer between the turbo and engine. We adjusted by ear, pump timing and total fuel. Predetonation was a problem if too much was used, but we set them up just to help burn off carbon build up. Every one I set up, the owner loved and claimed up to double the fuel mileage out of diesel, not considering propane. It really cleans up an overloaded, lugging engine, and helps spool the crap turbo's that came on 89-93 cummins trucks. My personal trucks that ran it weren't used as hard, usually empty or light towing, but my egt's were lower, and almost no smoke. Mileage empty usually went up 50%, but that doesn't include propane burn. A ten gal propane tank would last a whole tank of fuel, and then some. If I had the time, money and support, I would love to get into a di version, but it's beyond my means at this time.

On a gas engine it's simple. Impco 425 mixer, a model e vaporizer will work (there may be better avalible, haven't tried them) and a tank. The 425 will mount right to a Holley 750 square bore base plate. But, you will lose power and efficency unless the compression is at least 11-1. Cams and intakes will produce power differently than they will on gasoline. Tunnel ram intakes will no longer hurt low end, longer intake runners help actually. You run coolant through the vaporizer to help vaporize the fuel, thus air conditioning your coolant. My 12-1, 454 (actually a 496) in a trail rig ran a miata radiator without overheating. My turbo vw sandrail didn't have the head temp problems that it had with c16, and was noticeably quicker. The low end came on quicker and harder, plus it spooled quicker. Some of the improvements came from going from a suck-thru to a blow-thru turbo set up, but not the temps. No more fueling problems over jumps and rough terrain. I haven't pushed and engine to its limits on propane though, just shade tree wrenching, looking for what improvements I could find.

 

[FF]

even burn the extra fuel injected from over propping.

There is NO extra fuel injected from over propping IF the engine is operated correctly.

A 2400 rated engine propped to 2000 on the pin and then operated at 1200 to about 1800 would burn the fuel more efficiently .

Not a lot , but cruising at 1500 is far kinder on the engine than 1900 -2000 with the top speed prop.

 

[hollywood8118]

You need some pump tuning. My old tdi saw 55psi daily, with a poof of black until the turbo spooled. Then it was just a haze. The vw tdi is the easiest engine I've ever messed with to over fuel and lose boost. Granted, I know the older mechanically injected versions well, but the electronic ones I haven't messed with much. I was going to swap that engine into my audi TT Quattro, but sold it instead.

In sled pull and drag racing, many classes require single turbos, so a massive one is run. These take a bit to spool, and lose boost easily. Watch a video of them staging. Once they are spooled up, the black starts to lighten up. It goes away if they spay nitrous. At that level, they are a nightmare to drive. One little issue can end up with parts scattered everywhere.

Wow.. you must be the luckiest tdi owner around... most vw tdi's will blow chunks over 30 psi boost.

HOLLYWOOD

 

[SomeTexan]

Wow.. you must be the luckiest tdi owner around... most vw tdi's will blow chunks over 30 psi boost.

HOLLYWOOD

Really? The guys that ran them around here, and helped me get started, ran about what I did in their street toys. Race toys were higher. I did have a air to water intercooler/aftercooler that was a little restrictive, might have caused a false high number. I know that when I upgraded the intake tubes and intercooler on my Cummins, I lost 7psi, but gained power and egt's dropped. Engine was also built, pistons, rods, and a whole stack of arp bolts and studs. When I sold it, it ended up in a Golf with Quattro awd. Not stock, but it still runs at MSR Cresson.