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Old 11-04-2013, 10:13 AM   #21
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By the way w VW diesels they call them "TDI". What's the "I" for?
Intercooled

We have a TDI vdub that has been seriously pumped up..
As long as it is warmed up it will boost 15psi + with the go peddle mashed to the floor. When this occurs it belches black smoke on a smaller scale than the race trucks or tractor pullers
In race or performance diesels this is known as " overfueled "

HOLLYWOOD
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Old 11-04-2013, 10:39 AM   #22
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By the way w VW diesels they call them "TDI". What's the "I" for?

Turbocharged Direct Injected
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Old 11-04-2013, 10:52 AM   #23
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Thanks for joining in there SomeTexan, and welcome to the forums. I think you can probable explain best your results a bit better than I, as I'm not an 'engine guy' ....just know enough to get into trouble

But I did think your experiences with this 'technology' deserves some discussion.

Cheers, Brian
I'm not gonna lie, I'm not a pro when it comes to propane. I first ran it trying to make a carb'ed big block trail rig that had flooding issues. Worked great, but it did cost a little power. I looked into it and found that propane had a higher octane. Slapped another set of heads on that brought the compression up to just under 12 to 1. Ran great after that, and no longer overheated in slow sections. By the time I got into playing in the dunes, I had a plan for using propane. Cheaper and easier than fuel injection, and will support more power than pump fuel. I have played with it on diesels, but there are better options for overall power increase. Now, if I had a machine shop, foundry, and a few engineers working for me, I would give it a shot again, but I would want to directly inject it. 2 injectors, one diesel and one LPG, 2 injection pumps, both on seperate throttles. A computed controlled system would be great for efficency, but is beyond my understanding at this time.
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Old 11-04-2013, 11:04 AM   #24
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Intercooled

We have a TDI vdub that has been seriously pumped up..
As long as it is warmed up it will boost 15psi + with the go peddle mashed to the floor. When this occurs it belches black smoke on a smaller scale than the race trucks or tractor pullers
In race or performance diesels this is known as " overfueled "

HOLLYWOOD
You need some pump tuning. My old tdi saw 55psi daily, with a poof of black until the turbo spooled. Then it was just a haze. The vw tdi is the easiest engine I've ever messed with to over fuel and lose boost. Granted, I know the older mechanically injected versions well, but the electronic ones I haven't messed with much. I was going to swap that engine into my audi TT Quattro, but sold it instead.

In sled pull and drag racing, many classes require single turbos, so a massive one is run. These take a bit to spool, and lose boost easily. Watch a video of them staging. Once they are spooled up, the black starts to lighten up. It goes away if they spay nitrous. At that level, they are a nightmare to drive. One little issue can end up with parts scattered everywhere.
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Old 11-04-2013, 11:09 AM   #25
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Turbocharged Direct Injected
I thought the older (rabbit,golf) models were idi, meaning turbo diesel indirect, and the moniker was brought back with the early 90's version. The only older vw diesel I worked with got swapped into a samurai buggy and left stock.
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Old 11-04-2013, 03:03 PM   #26
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Some Texan,

Very interesting indeed.
What percentage of propane do you inject? And at what throttle settings or loads? How do you compute "economy"? Has fuel injection timing been optimized for the added propane?
Has anyone tried this P injection w a gasoline engine?
I would think one would want a normal diesel fuel mixture for starting but perhaps diesel and part propane could make starting easier. ???
Have you ever experimented w minimum amounts of propane? Sort-of a propane engine w diesel ignition through timed injection.
What problems or/and irregular running have you observed?
This could have a wonderful effect on the problems (to the extent they exist) of very light loading our engines on boats or even burn the extra fuel injected from over propping. Then some real increases in efficiency could come to pass.

I have an old Buick I'd like to change to propane. The biggest expense for that would be the tank.
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Old 11-04-2013, 05:36 PM   #27
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Some Texan,

Very interesting indeed.
What percentage of propane do you inject? And at what throttle settings or loads? How do you compute "economy"? Has fuel injection timing been optimized for the added propane?
Has anyone tried this P injection w a gasoline engine?
I would think one would want a normal diesel fuel mixture for starting but perhaps diesel and part propane could make starting easier. ???
Have you ever experimented w minimum amounts of propane? Sort-of a propane engine w diesel ignition through timed injection.
What problems or/and irregular running have you observed?
This could have a wonderful effect on the problems (to the extent they exist) of very light loading our engines on boats or even burn the extra fuel injected from over propping. Then some real increases in efficiency could come to pass.

I have an old Buick I'd like to change to propane. The biggest expense for that would be the tank.
The set up I learned on the old hotshot trucks was just an impco vaporizer between the turbo and engine. We adjusted by ear, pump timing and total fuel. Predetonation was a problem if too much was used, but we set them up just to help burn off carbon build up. Every one I set up, the owner loved and claimed up to double the fuel mileage out of diesel, not considering propane. It really cleans up an overloaded, lugging engine, and helps spool the crap turbo's that came on 89-93 cummins trucks. My personal trucks that ran it weren't used as hard, usually empty or light towing, but my egt's were lower, and almost no smoke. Mileage empty usually went up 50%, but that doesn't include propane burn. A ten gal propane tank would last a whole tank of fuel, and then some. If I had the time, money and support, I would love to get into a di version, but it's beyond my means at this time.

On a gas engine it's simple. Impco 425 mixer, a model e vaporizer will work (there may be better avalible, haven't tried them) and a tank. The 425 will mount right to a Holley 750 square bore base plate. But, you will lose power and efficency unless the compression is at least 11-1. Cams and intakes will produce power differently than they will on gasoline. Tunnel ram intakes will no longer hurt low end, longer intake runners help actually. You run coolant through the vaporizer to help vaporize the fuel, thus air conditioning your coolant. My 12-1, 454 (actually a 496) in a trail rig ran a miata radiator without overheating. My turbo vw sandrail didn't have the head temp problems that it had with c16, and was noticeably quicker. The low end came on quicker and harder, plus it spooled quicker. Some of the improvements came from going from a suck-thru to a blow-thru turbo set up, but not the temps. No more fueling problems over jumps and rough terrain. I haven't pushed and engine to its limits on propane though, just shade tree wrenching, looking for what improvements I could find.
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Old 11-05-2013, 06:48 AM   #28
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even burn the extra fuel injected from over propping.

There is NO extra fuel injected from over propping IF the engine is operated correctly.

A 2400 rated engine propped to 2000 on the pin and then operated at 1200 to about 1800 would burn the fuel more efficiently .

Not a lot , but cruising at 1500 is far kinder on the engine than 1900 -2000 with the top speed prop.
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Old 11-05-2013, 09:31 AM   #29
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You need some pump tuning. My old tdi saw 55psi daily, with a poof of black until the turbo spooled. Then it was just a haze. The vw tdi is the easiest engine I've ever messed with to over fuel and lose boost. Granted, I know the older mechanically injected versions well, but the electronic ones I haven't messed with much. I was going to swap that engine into my audi TT Quattro, but sold it instead.

In sled pull and drag racing, many classes require single turbos, so a massive one is run. These take a bit to spool, and lose boost easily. Watch a video of them staging. Once they are spooled up, the black starts to lighten up. It goes away if they spay nitrous. At that level, they are a nightmare to drive. One little issue can end up with parts scattered everywhere.

Wow.. you must be the luckiest tdi owner around... most vw tdi's will blow chunks over 30 psi boost.

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Old 11-05-2013, 10:02 AM   #30
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Wow.. you must be the luckiest tdi owner around... most vw tdi's will blow chunks over 30 psi boost.

HOLLYWOOD
Really? The guys that ran them around here, and helped me get started, ran about what I did in their street toys. Race toys were higher. I did have a air to water intercooler/aftercooler that was a little restrictive, might have caused a false high number. I know that when I upgraded the intake tubes and intercooler on my Cummins, I lost 7psi, but gained power and egt's dropped. Engine was also built, pistons, rods, and a whole stack of arp bolts and studs. When I sold it, it ended up in a Golf with Quattro awd. Not stock, but it still runs at MSR Cresson.
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Old 11-05-2013, 10:41 AM   #31
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Turbocharged Direct Injected
Thanks LaBomba,
But that sounds stupid. What diesel isn't "direct injected?????

Could be a carryover from BMW model designation.

I assumed the first two letters meant "turbocharged diesel".

As silly as it is I think you're right.

FF I've heard that stuff before and I'm tired of repeating myself. No comment. I did that repeat repeat stuff w Marin (seems to be gone) and it was not productive most of the time. From now on I'm going to try to say things once (who knows how often I'll succeed) and feel there's no need to repeat over and over. Put a new twist on it and I'll come out of the garage. I almost said closet.
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Old 11-05-2013, 12:00 PM   #32
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Thanks LaBomba,
But that sounds stupid. What diesel isn't "direct injected?????

Could be a carryover from BMW model designation.

I assumed the first two letters meant "turbocharged diesel".

As silly as it is I think you're right.
You have never heard of an idi diesel? I believe the old Navistar Fords were idi. Usually louder, indirect injection isn't as common anymore, but they do exist.
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Old 11-05-2013, 01:11 PM   #33
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International Harvester IDI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Seems like a whole mess of diesels under the hoods of Ford trucks are/were considered IDI....
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Old 11-05-2013, 02:10 PM   #34
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Put a new twist on it and I'll come out of the garage. I almost said closet.
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