Powertrain choices

[Art]

There's no market for retrofits Art. No real market anyway. Anyone with the wherewithal to retrofit modern engines and drive trains to old boats would build or buy new. Those interested in refits AND have the cash are as rare as hens teeth.

Didn't someone in Stockton with your same make and model Tolly recently dump close to $100K into diesel power?

Craig

The one fellow I know of that did put that much $mulah$ into same make and model Tolly as mine lives in PNW. And, yes... from what I understand $100K + was final “tally for his Tolly” - lol. He not only tore out gassers to install new diesels and fuel tanks but also refitted / refinished most if not all of his boat. I’ve read he likes it plenty!

You heard of similar Tolly-fix happening in Stockton?

I could be wrong, but this is as it appears to me: I believe you and I are similar in owning/utilizing our grand ol' classic cruisers... Make sure they're nice to begin with / Buy em right / Treat em right / Fix em as needed / Enjoy em often / Shine and sell when ready!

Please correct me if I missed the mark bout us!!

 

[CPseudonym]

It may have been the PNW but thought it was a 34 in Stockton for sale a year back for about $70K. Diesel powered. Doubt it sold but stranger stuff has happened.

Correct assessment on my style of boating. Buy someone else's dream and make it my own. Think it was Don Moon who once posted "we all enjoy the same scenery regardless of vessel". (Sorry Don for the paraphrase) His words had a profound impact on my preconceived notion of boating. I stopped looking high priced boats and started looking for high value boats.

But I digress... Sorry for the hijack guys.

 

[Nomad Willy]

rjtrane wrote;
"I get a kick out of the number of aficionados of out-dated technology. Who cares how much it pollutes nor how inefficient these antiques are. Even love how heavy these old motors are. Today's designers work overtime to get weight out of a boat. No one admits that you can't even buy these old motors anymore"

For me to resemble those remarks is not unusual as I don't like people throwing out ideas and practices that are old just because they are old.
But I won't try to parade an old anchor or engine as superior. But many of us like old stuff because it's interesting and charming. Technology is complicated and expensive. Just replaced a starter motor on my 73 Buick plus a tune up for $160. And painting a boat w house paint has just as much merit today as it did in 1940. And those here w old boats and engines that like them shouldn't be but down trying to enjoy them. After all this is pleasure boating. No offense and I agree w you regarding the weight of big old engines. Excess weight is stupid.

 

[FF]

"I get a kick out of the number of aficionados of out-dated technology. Who cares how much it pollutes nor how inefficient these antiques are.

I guess you are still locked in the Global Warming , Nuclear Winter , Climate Change HOAX from the 1960s Club of Rome .

With fuel prices coming down the cost per mile of a proven engine does really well when comparing the total cost of maint repairs from light duty car engine conversions . Like Yannmar.

Toyota trucks and BMW car diesels are not really suitable for a passage maker.

For 200 annual hours of yachty travel they do fine , but may suffer even more from disuse and lack of maint than big old industrial sized clunkers do.

 

[ranger58sb]

Chris. The single pod boat your read about was the one I drive. The ZF pod they used was the 2500. - an aluminum alloy pod (similar metal as I/Os). Not at all suitable for 40' plus semi semi displacement applications.

In fact, neither the IPS nor the Zeus is designed for semi-displacement. I do recall seeing a press release saying that one or the other is developing a unit for slower speeds and may work in the size and speed range you're thinking of. But in twins , triples or quads.

I'd like to see someone develop a slant shaft gear box that would support counter rotating props. Might be an efficient alternative to pods.

You may have gathered by now that I am a fan of:

1. Modern, computer-controlled diesels
2. Counter rotating props.
3. Pods.

Interesting. I'm remembering correctly that it's a center console, yes?

Are IPS and Zeus pods also aluminum alloy? Thought they were specifically engineered to always be submerged...

I've seen many of the statements about pods being designed for faster boats. That said, we've been on much larger boats that use pods, so it doesn't seem inconceivable to me that a displacement version would work fine. After all, the prop goes around, no matter how fast the boat goes, no matter whether it's on centerline or offset

And the dual advantages of straighter angle of attack and directional thrust seem to be useful for some applications.

Twins are OK in my current experience. Wouldn't want to maintain yet another (3rd or 4th) diesel/gear... and in fact, one reason I'd prefer a single is about less maintenance and with 360° access.

A Sunseeker express boat was in our marina the other day for service -- triple gas installation, of all things -- and last I heard the engine that needed service was the one they couldn't even get to. I didn't hear the end of that story, but at the time they were discussing pulling an engine to get access to the one that needed work..

-Chris

 

[rjtrane]

IPS, Zeus and larger ZF pods are bronze alloy.

We have twin IPS on our 42' Island Pilot 435 with 360 access. Not too hard to design since tanks are not in engine room.

The reason that pods are being promoted for faster boats is not that they don't work at slower speeds - they do - quite well.

It's the gear ratios and props offered. The new pods I mentioned have deeper reduction and matching props (I'm not knowledgeable about this - do your own research?).

I'm working with Castleman Maritime (www,castlemanmaritime.com) - their 100' tugs use azimuthing pods made by Rolls Royce on their tractor tugs. Always in pairs. Do, yes, pods can work at displacement speeds.

BTW, new tugs all use modern, computer-controlled engines. No antique-lovers in the tug business. More reliable. More fuel efficient. Less down time.

 

[Capthead]

As to retrofitting new engines into my boat, what would you suggest? I can't find a 6 cyl that is comparable in fuel economy in the new common rail engines that is N/A and turns 2400 peak RPM. I don't think I need a turbo 4 cyl 3500 RPM engine producing 250 HP with intercoolers.

Pushing my 36000 pound boat above hull speed isn't what I'm after. I know the new GB's have the pod power but I'm not going to convert over to that either.

That would be like taking a 49 Ford and putting a computer controlled engine and drive train with IRS suspension and a touch screen dash controller. You still have a 49 Ford.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Capthead wrote:
"That would be like taking a 49 Ford and putting a computer controlled engine and drive train with IRS suspension and a touch screen dash controller. You still have a 49 Ford" Haha that's what most of the hot rodders are doing these days. Clip front ends ect. When they get through only the body is left.

Lots of engines Cap. Two 80hp JDs come to mind but no need to buy a high end engine. 65hp would do you fine. If yo started serious shopping I'm sure you'd find at least 6 or 7 engines to choose from. I saw a 36GB w twin 55hp Yanmars awhile back on Yachtworld. Since it's a twin the costs would be significant. GB offered singles so it may be practical to change to a single.

Just thoughts but perhaps a single International like FF was talk'in about?

The S6S Mitsubishi 6 cyl is 66hp but I don't think it is Tier II and not available. But call Dave at KLassen Engines in the Ballard district in Seattle and see what he's got. The price will be right.

 

[rjtrane]

If you're considering low HP 4 cylinder, stick to the Yanmars - those 4 cylinder JDs will rattle your fillings, the money you save on fuel is spent on dentists.

Have you considered having current motors rebuilt?

Regarding using a modern diesel of appropriate HP for the speeds you plan on going: if you know how much HP or fuel flow you currently use for the speed you want, you just may find a modern diesel that has a very efficient use of fuel at that HP. Ideally, the RPM at that HP will be fast enough to have the turbo engaged as turbos DO save fuel. ALL current commercial builds (i.e. tugs) have turbo'd diesels. Other than pre-conceived opinions (lots of it expressed here), turbos are not bad. In fact, they can be good. And not just for high speed craft.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Some good thoughts except his big proplem is too much power so I can't relate to rebuilding the existing engines.

AND there's lots of great 4 cylinder engines. Actually Yanmar's are a bad choice just because of their high prices. I looked at a Yanmar ,that was almost twice as much as the Mitsu I bought. Lots of great engines and almost none that I wouldn't recommend but I haven't shopped for 10 years. Beta seems very good but they aren't handy for parts. Actually as I recall the engine manufacturer isn't usually the weak link .. It's the marineizers that can be trouble. Sole' has a poor following and perhaps others but I can't think of a bad engine.

Jtrane have you really experienced a badly vibrating JD 4cyl? I heard the opposite and as I recall they have balancers but I know from my MC days some engine balancers don't work well. Also a boat that vibrates frequently does so because of the boat and installation ... Not the engine.

 

[ranger58sb]

IPS, Zeus and larger ZF pods are bronze alloy.

...

The new pods I mentioned have deeper reduction and matching props (I'm not knowledgeable about this - do your own research?).

I'm working with Castleman Maritime (www,castlemanmaritime.com) - their 100' tugs use azimuthing pods made by Rolls Royce on their tractor tugs. Always in pairs. Do, yes, pods can work at displacement speeds.

Sounding better and better. I can imagine tugs benefiting from twins; more horsepower, more control, etc. For my purposes, a single at displacement or semi-displacement speeds could easily be enough.

I expect the market will drive further development more than anything else, though. And I doubt there's lots of buyers who might prefer a new boat with a single engine and with a pod drive... at displacement or semi-displacement speeds. Which means I'm not holding my breath...

Still, it makes for nice mental exercise


I think this is the single pod center console I was remembering reading about: 2011 Engines Review - Pod Drives

And I see that already includes counter-rotating props, too.

-Chris

 

[rjtrane]

I only have first hand experience with one 4 cylinder JD single screw installation. I was working with Mirage building the Great Harbour 37s - the standard power was a pair of 56 HP Yanmars, upped from the original 39 HP ones. This one couple had firm ideas as to what they wanted - among other things, their wish list included a single John Deere.

It wasn't difficult to re-engineer from the twins to the single so the buyers got their wish. I drove that boat enough to make a couple of determinations:

1. Rougher running than the twin Yanmars
2. Noisier
3. Less maneuverable (foregone conclusion)
4. It may have been slower - I'd have to find my sea trial data buried on a hard drive in a galaxy far, far away.

Back in my Florida Bay Coaster days we installed 6 cylinder Perkins on our 50 footers. We built as couple of 45 footers. Outfitted with a pair of 4 cylinder Yanmars, the smaller version was as smooth if not smoother than the larger 50 footers with their 6 cylinder NA motors.

Interestingly, with the advent of modern diesels, Yanmar let the other manufacturers pass them by - mainly Volvo and Cummins with their common rail, computer controlled motors. To compete, they marinized first the BMW and more recently the Toyota diesels - both excellent motors.

I tend to agree with the previous post regarding that there are no bad motors these days. For use in the U.S., reputation, parts and service can play a big part in the decision-making process.

In the hybrid arena, an area that holds great interest to me, motors based on Fiat blocks, especially in the smaller sizes, are quite interesting. And the Austrian Steyr is now a mature product.

For those of you looking for a fail-safe diesel, the Steyl is hard to beat. A bit old-fashion (no common rail nor computer timing) they use a monoblock design (the head is the same casting as the block - no head gasket to fail). This results in a motor that can run continuously, at up to 1,500 RPM, with NO COOLING WATER! It is a high speed diesel (with water) turning 4,000 RPM.