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Old 11-14-2013, 01:58 AM   #81
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The 135hp Volvo engines usually seen in Mariner 31s are called "165" models, which can mislead as to hp, Auscan has it right. They are advertised from 55K up, a good entry level twin.
The Savage 33 and Cresta 32 used the same hull, I think. They are one of several boats favored to refit for offshore fishing; another,the Masters 34, usually with a single, looks unfashionable but has an excellent seaboat and build reputation.
Bruce I did not know that either. I have seen a number of volvo 165s and some 135 hp and assumed they were different.

I'm finding that the Mariner 31 with the twin shaft diesels are hard to find if you want a decent one and that a decent one is perhaps out of my price range.

I am looking at a Riviera 30 this weekend as I really just want to start getting on some boats. Yes it's a stern drive but aside for that its got everything I'm after. Ill see how it goes...
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Old 11-14-2013, 08:02 AM   #82
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I think most TF members agree that diesel shaft drives are the way to go. Twin vs single is a personal choice.




I think I'd like to investigate a single diesel with azipod drive (Volvo IPS, Cummins Zeus, engine plus ZF, whatever)...

Possibly with some semblance of keel, possibly even with protecting skeg/shoe (although I have no knowledge of whether any of that could be made to be compatible).

I'm thinking this partly so the engine can be moved further aft, to perhaps provide better service access, to make more space available for hotel spaces, etc.

Don't know of anyone who's tried it for a cruising boat... but I think there's a small company in FL who has successfully made a center console with this set-up...

(Another version of same could be a diesel electric system, perhaps with two generators, sometime run singly, sometimes in parallel.)

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Old 11-14-2013, 11:54 AM   #83
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Eric wrote, " the Uniflite was designed such that it would carry a lot of weight aft unlike the Tolly. The Uniflite had a "warped" bottom . . ."

Eric, the 28 Uniflite that I ran for several years had a wonderful ride in any kind of head sea. The deep, sharp forefoot cut the water and rode like on shock absorbers. Very much better that the Bertram. With its reverse chines it was much drier than the Bertrams. In a following sea the deep vee of the Bertram was much better. To keep the Uniflite stable in a following sea I would take all tabs off and run with the bow high. That deep forefoot, if it caught coming off the face of a wave, would cause the boat to shear. Hard to get back around.
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Old 11-14-2013, 12:33 PM   #84
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I can relate directly to all of that Don. The Uniflites were/are very nice riding boats but take a lot of power to move. Like a deep V but w more stability and carrying capacity. The ride and stability was/is considerably better than the Tolly's but the Tolly's I'm sure are considerably more efficient with their lighter weight and narrower hulls (at the chine) not to mention being a bit more graceful attop of a following sea.

The Tolly is definitely better looking than the slightly commercial looking Uniflite's. In the old PNW days of Bayliners and Reinells or bigger inbds Tollys and Uniflites the Bayliners and Rienells were so much the same it really didn't make much difference which way you went. But w the Uniflites and Tollys the differences were large enough that it was easy for most to make the choice. Most people probably made the choice relative to what their friends liked or had.

Oh .. Don was that the 28 "Mega"? The older and narrower 27 was my favorite. Had any experience w them?
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Old 11-14-2013, 12:42 PM   #85
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I used to refer to our 1973 31' Uniflite FB convertible as my "Water Borne Go Cart". Cause... with low hour powerful CC twins her handling ability was swift and agile. WOT hit well into the early 30 knot range; cruise all day in low to mid 20s. Had no trouble in sea conditions encountered (although I never went into really bad seas with her - I'm confident she would have done fine).

I am (we are) addicted to Tollycraft... for many reasons. But, I still keep my eyes open in case a real nice (pre 1974) Uni were to pop up for sale. Then we could have our Tolly 100 miles away in SF Delta fresh swimming water and a Uni just 8 miles away in SF Bay cruising saltwater... What Fun!! Then I could be aboard a boat nearly any time I want!

Well spend some of the few couple days available in 2013 for this weekend on our Tolly; be there Friday afternoon. Gotta come home Sun Eve. Health problems for our beloved 90 yr Matriarch has kept us pretty much grounded to the home front since beginning of year (spent morning with her). This will be only our third (maybe 4th??) time aboard in 2013... Im jonesing... hardly can wait!
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Old 11-14-2013, 02:06 PM   #86
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Quote:
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Oh .. Don was that the 28 "Mega"? The older and narrower 27 was my favorite. Had any experience w them?
Flybridge Sedan/sportfish

Notice we were flying a fish flag off the outrigger
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Old 11-14-2013, 05:42 PM   #87
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Chris.

Pod drives come in twins, triples and quads. Except for a prototype ZF with integrated bow thruster (not in the pod but interfaced). I have driven this single - the joystick handling is not as good as an IPS or Zeus. Cost is high - not a value.

If you're looking to match the performance of pod drives with a single, a dual-prop I/O has similar performance and economy of operation. If you cruise a lot, fuel savings will pay for additional maintenance.

Counter rotating props perpendicular to the waterline will always outperformed slant shafts.
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Old 11-14-2013, 06:51 PM   #88
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Chris.

Pod drives come in twins, triples and quads. Except for a prototype ZF with integrated bow thruster (not in the pod but interfaced). I have driven this single - the joystick handling is not as good as an IPS or Zeus. Cost is high - not a value.

If you're looking to match the performance of pod drives with a single, a dual-prop I/O has similar performance and economy of operation. If you cruise a lot, fuel savings will pay for additional maintenance.

Counter rotating props perpendicular to the waterline will always outperformed slant shafts.
Reuben - Perpendicular props stemming from Pod or OD or even OB have to battle gear-unit encasement drag and turbulence. Props at end of slant shaft have less drag/turbulence to overcome. Also, hull engineering can relieve a lot of slant shaft thrust loss. Is it an engineered / blind-test proven fact that in real life Pod or OD perpendicular props outperform slant shaft props? Or, is it paper engineering that does not account for encasement drag/turbulence?
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Old 11-14-2013, 07:58 PM   #89
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Art. With all due respect, you are incorrect. Pods and I /Os have significantly less drag than that of a shaft, strut and rudder. Add the efficiency of counter-rotating props and the difference becomes more dramatic.

IPS pods with forward-facing props and exhaust through the hub demonstrate the biggest increase in performance filled by Zeus and I /Os.

This is not my opinion. Different sea trials have been performed comparing the different pods with slant shafts on the same hull model. As I recall boat test.com has performed and reported on sea trials.

Differences in performance are greatest at the higher speeds - typically 20+ knots. At displacement speeds, performance is closer to traditional slant shafts.
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Old 11-14-2013, 08:25 PM   #90
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I agree w rjtrane Art. Another thing that could enter into this is that the prop on the straight inbd drive is under the hull and may have some advantages from that. But I'm sure the horizontal drive shaft systems are considerably more efficient if their propellers are big enough.

And I'm guessing the prop behind the gear unit is probably best. Would be interesting to compare airplane technology in this regard. Lots of "tractors" and "pushers" to evaluate.
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Old 11-14-2013, 08:29 PM   #91
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Yo Reuben - I was not trying to be correct or incorrect... just posing question.

Howard Arneson has best of both worlds... stratght shaft out the transom that alters camber for direction adjustment. That and his unique props are why his jet engine powered craft go over 200 mph... if desired. I go past Howard's shop often. Have watched his rigs in action on SF Bay. Impressive!
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Old 11-14-2013, 08:59 PM   #92
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You did say a 30' boat, right? Stuffing twin diesels in a 30 is insane unless you are talking about the new Yanmar light weight throw away type engines. The older conventional diesels weigh a ton, will slow the boat due to weight and in the long run not be a good choice. I had a 30' cabin cruiser gas and I ran 18kts burning 4 gph. I don't know how you beat that. Re think the boat.
40 plus, go diesel.
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Old 11-14-2013, 09:14 PM   #93
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You did say a 30' boat, right? Stuffing twin diesels in a 30 is insane unless you are talking about the new Yanmar light weight throw away type engines. The older conventional diesels weigh a ton, will slow the boat due to weight and in the long run not be a good choice. I had a 30' cabin cruiser gas and I ran 18kts burning 4 gph. I don't know how you beat that. Re think the boat.
40 plus, go diesel.
In context I concur w/ Capthead... Gas engine (single or twin) can be fast, light, efficient, and affordable in smaller cruisers. Diesel weight and torque is for pushing some size and mass through, or over, the water with big props.
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Old 11-14-2013, 09:40 PM   #94
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Bob,
VW, Corvair, Tucker.

Don't know about the Italian things but all rear engined cars seem to be a failure except the Porsche. And being German it dosn't need to be a design success. They make all their odd designs look like they've seen the light and the rest of the world is in the dark. Air cooled VWs and BMW motorcycles w the cyl heads right where one's feet belong come to mind.

Outboards on the stern work well because the're light. Not so much anymore but compared to an IO w a car or truck engine plus a big heavy IO even the 4 stroke OBs are light.

I'm not say'in engines in the stern don't work. I am say'in engines placed near the center of the boat work BETTER. Balance is a huge part of boat design and the engine in the center of the boat can't be beat.

FF,
IH is belly up aren't they? You're suggesting rebuilding old farm machinery and marinizing it? Never heard of an IH in a boat. But before they did it never heard of a JD in a boat either. But they still make JDs. The're are no marine engines anymore so all boat engines come mostly or entirely from cars and trucks. That in itself is bad but an economic necessity. What is an IH 360? Six, 8 cyl and how long ago did they stop making them. Is it an extremely common farm engine and w parts readily availible? And if it's such a good engine why aren't boaters regularly replacing their Lehman's w the IH 360? If I had a tired or screwed up Lehman I'd want to know all about this IH. I think rebuilding a Lehman is a questionable undertaking just so one dosn't need to fabricate new engine mounts. Surely there are other good engines too.

I'm not knocking the IH engine FF. But you've mentioned it many times over the years and no real information has surfaced.
My friend put a pair of IH engines in his rebuild / modification of a fire damaged Hat 53. Great engines. Many many thousands of them built and in use in over the road trucks. He bought two out of wrecked trucks and rebuilt them in his garage with the help of a guy that builds diesel pulling trucks. Parts are readily available and reasonably priced. The boat has made several trips between isla Mujeres and fort Meyers. Through the Panama Canal twice and all over the Western Carribean. He gets 8.2 knots @ 4 gallons an hour.
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Old 11-14-2013, 10:22 PM   #95
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Great info Dary,
What displacement and configuration ... inline 6 I suppose. Most or all NA? Direct injection or a pre-chamber. All completely mechanical? What are rpm ratings for power? Are there different models? Different configurations like 4 or 8 cyl? Counter balancers? Are they mostly truck engines?

I'll bet there are some here that have old Perkins and Lehmans and would like to upgrade.
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Old 11-14-2013, 10:46 PM   #96
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Eric,

His are inline 6 cyl. Large displacement ... I think 570 cu. in. Max rpm 1850 but he has over pitched his props so would never try full throttle even to see what it would turn. He has EGT gauges on them and uses a max of 900 as a limit. Usual cruise EGT of just under 800. They are turbo-ed but at his cruise power the turbos are not making any boost so he is considering removing them. A friend that owns a truck towing business near I80 got the engines for him out of wrecks. With the overhauls and marinization he has less than $10k per engine in them. (I don't know if that includes the transmissions but I don't think it does.)
He cruises between 800 and 850 rpm and about 800 degrees EGT. That keeps enough heat in them to keep them happy.
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Old 11-15-2013, 02:20 AM   #97
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Some people like complications and high-maintenance systems. Not me.
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Old 11-15-2013, 06:23 AM   #98
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From what I see the boat assembler LOVE the single hole drive , really fast for only modest skilled labor to install.

The boats perform OK, but the few owners that keep a boat over 5 years would never purchase that style drive again.

The maint expen$e is horrible , compared to simple shafts or a CPP.

Save a few % in fuel, replace 3 -4 ,,$25,000 drives every other year, you chose!
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Old 11-15-2013, 08:50 AM   #99
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All this talk about boats and motorcycles leads to this:

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Old 11-15-2013, 09:06 AM   #100
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Dave - Thanks for posting the video!

That's one of the the funniest, dumbest, most unusual and most dangerous "boating" experiements I've seen. Someone falls off and chopped meat could easily be the outcome. Those guys have too much time on their hands! lol
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