Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 04-03-2012, 01:30 AM   #41
Veteran Member
 
CaptSoterio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 67
if i grabbed the battery, couldn't i get the cells checked again?
__________________
Advertisement

CaptSoterio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2012, 01:38 AM   #42
Guru
 
BruceK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,567
11.7 volts on an open circuit test(ie measuring charge at the two terminals) is zero charge (source Ed Sherman "Powerboaters Guide to Electrical Systems"). Try fully recharging (if you can),wait an hour, test each cell with a hydrometer,cheap, readily available at marine and auto stores, easy to use,should come with instructions.Every cell must test ok or it`s no good.
Your batteries at 11v may be beyond saving. If your boat usage is occasional consider some solar charging for good maintenance and longer battery life.
BruceK
__________________

BruceK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2012, 01:52 AM   #43
Veteran Member
 
CaptSoterio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceK View Post
11.7 volts on an open circuit test(ie measuring charge at the two terminals) is zero charge (source Ed Sherman "Powerboaters Guide to Electrical Systems"). Try fully recharging (if you can),wait an hour, test each cell with a hydrometer,cheap, readily available at marine and auto stores, easy to use,should come with instructions.Every cell must test ok or it`s no good.
Your batteries at 11v may be beyond saving. If your boat usage is occasional consider some solar charging for good maintenance and longer battery life.
BruceK
ouch. alright. i wish i grabbed the battery before i left... tomorrow im going to check out more on the starter and go from there. i cant get back to the boat for a bit. atleast a week i think. Is there anyway that the starter could have drained the battery fast because of how many times i attempted to turn it over?
CaptSoterio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2012, 03:52 AM   #44
Guru
 
BruceK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,567
"Is there anyway that the starter could have drained the battery fast because of how many times i attempted to turn it over?"

Yes,quite possibly, especially if it is not getting recharged at all. That`s why your first step is to recharge it fully,if it will take it. A full battery is 12.6v and up, that`s after you let it rest following charging.
My last boat had a Perkins T6354,turbo plus intercooler,great strong engine, started instantly. Unless you are sure the starter is defective,I`d suggest resolving the battery issue before reconditioning it. BruceK
BruceK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2012, 06:42 AM   #45
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,525
"Is there anyway that the starter could have drained the battery fast because of how many times i attempted to turn it over?"

No ,not really as a starter is usually many hundreds of amps , and when cranking gets so slow as to be meaningless , most folks will get off the start button.

A real start batt will save it self by the bubbles on the plates stopping heavy current flow if over cranked. Deep cycle may not.

A real dead batt comes from a small circuit being left on , or from internal shorts that drain it internally , old age..

FF
FF is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2012, 07:38 AM   #46
Enigma
 
RT Firefly's Avatar
 
City: Slicker?
Country: Bumpkin?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,996
Greetings,
If the battery is "weak", it may read 12.6 volts after a charge but will quickly drain if put under even a short load. I agree with Mr. Bruce K. Check the battery condition before putting the blame on the starter as well as Mr. clectrics suggestion of checking ALL connections and cables. Do the easy and cheap stuff first.
__________________
RTF
RT Firefly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2012, 11:14 AM   #47
Guru
 
Arctic Traveller's Avatar


 
City: Juneau Alaska
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Arctic Traveller
Vessel Model: Defever 49 RPH
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 619
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptSoterio View Post

yes the 11v were without a load on the batteries.
11V no load means the battery is DEAD. If it was on a charger over night before you took the reading, it's clearly shot. If it sat for a few weeks or months with out being on a charger, it's possible it can be charged up again, but sitting dead is the quickest way to kill a battery. You could try taking the battery out of your car just for testing purposes, assuming it's of a reasonable size. It's possible you starter is OK if you were trying to crank the engine with a battery at 11 volts, so that's the first thing I'd try.

Don't be too disappointed a about having to spend a little money on your boat, it's just the beginning and the cost of a battery is pretty minor. If you learn to repair things your self, you will save a ton of money over the life of the boat. Get yourself a copy of Nigel Caulder's Mechanical and Electrical systems book. The sooner you do that, the sooner you will start being able to fix your own boat. There are specific instructions in the book on how to trouble shoot your starting system........Arctic Traveller
__________________
Trawler training and yacht charters at www.arctictraveller.com
Arctic Traveller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2012, 09:34 PM   #48
Guru
 
Edelweiss's Avatar
 
City: PNW
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 1976 Californian Tricabin LRC
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,834
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptSoterio View Post
alright, ill look for new batteries too.

also there is no tag on the starter. 1113639 was groved into the side along with 12 volt and some initals "CW JR"
-------------------------------------

Delco model 1113639 is a 35MT and is pretty close to a 3695 35 MT and is probably correct.
Since you already have it out take the starter and the solenoid to a shop and have them checked. It's a good starter and they are usually rock solid, unless they are shorted. Could be just the solenoid, which is the "Achilles heel" But the good news is they are easy to rebuild.

Put your money into a new battery and you should be good to go.

Larry B
Edelweiss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2012, 12:09 AM   #49
Veteran Member
 
CaptSoterio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 67
bad news for me.. took the starter and solenoid to local shop and the guy didnt want to tell me squat without getting some money in return. i asked him questions and he just kept saying "well either way it doesnt really matter." Ill just say that it was a bad experience and recieved no help. I'll have to look around for somewhere else.

He said it would cost at most $344 to rebuild the starter depending on how many parts are bad but ofcourse he wouldnt tell me that.

Near the end of the month is when ill be back into some money which is when i will be able to do something. for now im stuck. 8-D's are about 175 if you are willing to trade your dead battery. not bad i guess.
CaptSoterio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2012, 12:27 AM   #50
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 12
Denso makes a replacement starter for that motor. It's a gear reduction starter that takes a lot less amperage to start. If you keep bumping a starter with a low battery the disc in the solonoid can arc and stick to the two posts and it melts the cables. That would only be the positive cables not the ground. Mine starts just fine on a group 27 battery. I think the starter is around 250 new.
dsharp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2012, 02:04 AM   #51
Veteran Member
 
CaptSoterio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsharp View Post
Denso makes a replacement starter for that motor. It's a gear reduction starter that takes a lot less amperage to start. If you keep bumping a starter with a low battery the disc in the solonoid can arc and stick to the two posts and it melts the cables. That would only be the positive cables not the ground. Mine starts just fine on a group 27 battery. I think the starter is around 250 new.
Sounds like what happened. Do you know the part number for the starter that your talking about.

Also i have a new update to this. I emailed the previous owner, he already got back to me but doesnt seem like ill hear much back from him tonight. He had told me that two years ago he had the starter rebuilt.

Is this more reasons to point to the battery?
CaptSoterio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2012, 02:58 AM   #52
Veteran Member
 
CaptSoterio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 67
after researching and more researching, its not that i dont believe you guys but i watched how the starter turned and it was slow. I think that due to bad battery connections to the starter, the starter is now fried. After its opened up that will confirm it im sure. of course there is something wrong with the battery also however i think it just needs to be recharged. i guess i will see when it happens.


In the end, It sounds like it could be either the starter or the battery. the only thing that bugs me is how i saw how slow the starter spun after being bench tested.
CaptSoterio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2012, 07:55 AM   #53
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,153
Those AC Delco starters can get wanky fast. Especially after repeated high-heat cycles. If the starter ever "hangs" or stops during starting attempts, the current does NOT stop flowing, but is converted directly into heat. The same heat that is cooking your starter is cooking your connectors, destroying your insulation on the wires, thus, adding corrosion and more wire resistance.

I will share that I had the same problem as you. I pulled the starter and took it to a starter/alternator shop in New Bern, NC. Two of the six brushed had failed and he completely rebuilt the starter for less than $100. (Later we DID find out he left a thrust bushing off and the starter would stick while starting so it cost us another rebuild job in Wilmington, NC to get it fixed.) After the ordeal, we purchased a gear reduction starter as a backup. It will eventually be installed as the primary when time allows. It was about $275 brand new.

Now, saying that, over the past few weeks, I have been upgrading the DC charging system. One of the big projects was to replace the old, crappy, cheap, POS, poorly installed lugs on the battery and starter wires. I purchased a nice crimping tool and Quick Cable Magna lugs from Grainger. Even after the starter rebuild (about a year ago), turning the key for us STILL caused us a lot of anxiety as Dr. Perky (yes, our engine has a name) would strain to get turned up. However, after this past weekend's completion of the wiring upgrade, I have never heard her start more quickly and more strongly.

I hope this helps.

Tom-
__________________
2000 Navigator 4200 Classic
(NOT a trawler)
Tom.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2012, 09:56 AM   #54
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 12
Nippondenso Industrial Starters you have to pay attention to the pinion teeth and rotation. If you have the numbers to the old starter you should be able to match. The first thing you want to look at are your cables and terminals. The clamp on battery terminals are worthless. The previous poster gave you very good advice. I was enslaved at birth into a boatyard and it's usually the cables or that's where it starts. Hard to say without looking but try to see if it looks like the inside of the starter has been hot. I've had pretty good luck with the gear reduction starters even though they look kind of whimpy at first. The kw rating is the horsepower.
dsharp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2012, 03:59 PM   #55
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,525
Any cheap digital Volt meter , $8,00 at Northern freight.hooked to the starter and ground will give great information .

12.6 to 12.8 fine full batt before cranking .

Under 9.5 or so while cranking there is a problem.

13.8 to 14.4 after start the charge system is working.

Easiest test is to crank for 15/30 seconds and FEEL gently the cable and all its attachments.

The starter should barely be warm, any/every Hot Spots is one of your problems.

8D is a size , like size 9w shoes.

It does not tell if the battery is a start batt or a deep cycle batt for house service , but NOT for starting.

Due to the weight many folks will go cheap with much lighter series 31 truck batts .

A pair or 3 in parallel will match the CCA required from an 8D and there loads lighter to hump down the dock, after a shore charge.

A pair of 8D start batts together IS the most reliable method of starting below about 40F. That is the weight of lead you need working in cold areas.

FF
FF is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2012, 01:20 PM   #56
Veteran Member
 
CaptSoterio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 67
**UPDATE**

starter was cleaned by my mechanic and reinstalled. engine started with only 11.5v coming from starting battery. steamed the boat for 16 hours to a closer location. new issue has presented itself, the packing from the drive shaft has now blown so i need to get it drydocked and replaced ouch
CaptSoterio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2012, 08:13 PM   #57
Guru
 
Edelweiss's Avatar
 
City: PNW
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 1976 Californian Tricabin LRC
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,834
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptSoterio View Post
**UPDATE**

starter was cleaned by my mechanic and reinstalled. engine started with only 11.5v coming from starting battery. steamed the boat for 16 hours to a closer location. new issue has presented itself, the packing from the drive shaft has now blown so i need to get it drydocked and replaced ouch
________________________________

If you have a wet packing gland, you shouldn't need to haul out to replace the packing material. Take the packing nut loose slide it up the shaft a few inches, wrap an old rag or two around the shaft and press it into the shaft log enough to stop most of the water flow. Pull the old packing out of the packing nut with a bent ice pick or nail and replace it. If you haven't done this before, you may need some help as there is a right way and a wrong way of cutting and installing packing rings. Don't try to wrap the packing around the shaft three times and pressing it into the nut. It doesn't work that way!! It must be cut into rings and formed around the shaft (usually with a small hammer) and then pressed one at a time into the packing nut.

Be sure and have the packing and rags on hand before you remove the old packing.

If you have a dripless shaft log, then that may require a little more work and possibly a haulout.

Good luck
Larry B
Edelweiss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2012, 08:45 PM   #58
Enigma
 
RT Firefly's Avatar
 
City: Slicker?
Country: Bumpkin?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,996
Greetings,
Mr. Capt. Sot'. I concur with Mr. Edelweiss. Repacking the stuffing box, depending on design CAN be done in water. It's a bit traumatic given that water DOES gush in what seems to be copious amounts into your boat but as suggested, pre-planning along with properly pre cut packing rings, a good bilge pump, rags and calm approach should allow you to accomplish a re-pack. Worst case scenario, don't get hauled out, sit in the slings and proceed. If things go south, you won't sink and THEN you can be hauled.
Let us know what transpires.
Further to the dripless shaft log comment, I don't like them and I'm sure there are those that swear by them and those that swear at them. Count me in the latter group.
__________________
RTF
RT Firefly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2012, 08:59 PM   #59
Guru
 
BruceK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,567
Did the battery revive itself during the 16 hour voyage, and if so, is it holding the charge ok? BruceK
BruceK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2012, 10:57 PM   #60
Guru
 
Egregious's Avatar
 
City: Sunset Beach, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Polly P.
Vessel Model: Monk 36
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 554
If I missed this earlier, then please forgive me:
With my Perkins 6.354, it needs two things only. Air and Fuel. Have you pulled a high pressure fuel line or injector to make sure fuel is getting into the cylinder? If it turns over, and fuel goes in, and air goes in, then it will start.

Also, I had my starter smoke, when we were cranking the motor at length when trying to bleed the fuel system. It was water on the connection. I took it apart and applied Vaseline jelly and put it back together and no more smoke.

Hope this helps.
Woody
__________________

Egregious is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Perkins 4-236 Capt Nemo Power Systems 10 03-01-2012 03:07 AM
Adding a captain's chair to lower helm - ideas? 7tiger7 General Discussion 34 03-29-2011 09:20 AM
Captain's / Master's license? 7tiger7 General Discussion 23 03-13-2011 06:21 AM




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012