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Old 10-11-2015, 07:46 AM   #21
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Thanks David. This is precisely the kind of information I was looking for... particularly the bit about engine life. 3,900 hours seems like a lot, until you break it down by average hours/year (~244). This tells me that the boat was used, and not just sitting in a marina someplace. One can only hope (at this time) that it was properly operated and maintained.

Any thoughts (pro or con) on the running gear setup?

We're hoping to get down to take a look at the boat today.

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Originally Posted by djmarchand View Post
Trans Atlantic Diesels can rebuild it for you. Very roughly- $10-15,000.

If you want to repower it a factory remanned Cummins 6BT 210 hp would be a good choice. More hp than you need, but you can run it slow. Essentially a new engine for about $20,000 +/-. Should be slightly more fuel efficient.

But that engine should last a lot longer than 3,900 hours if maintained and run right. Sure its a 1999 engine. Many boat builders switched to the above Cummins by then.

David
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Old 10-11-2015, 02:30 PM   #22
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I have the 6.354 Range 4 135 hp with 4400 hrs. Starts easy, runs smooth, low oil consumption, very little smoke and is easy on fuel. So far its been a pleasure to own.
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Old 10-11-2015, 06:17 PM   #23
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we've got two. and have seen serious corrosion issues in anything that has seawater running through it. check the coolers, especially where they bolt together, for signs of corrosion.

my experiences with TAD have been mixed - the prices definitely seem to be on the rise but they are a good start in your search of original parts. mrcool.com is a much more economical option if you don't care that the coolers look a little different.

they do still run strong though....even being from 1979
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Old 10-12-2015, 09:38 AM   #24
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Before having a boat yard do any rebuild , go to Boats and Harbors and find out what a commercial rebuild would cost ,and esp with common engines like a pick up truck motor what an entire short block, or full crate engine would cost.

You might be shocked to learn new is 1/2- 1/3 or less than rebuilt locally.

More interesting to pay for the paper version , tho its on line.
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Old 10-20-2015, 02:51 PM   #25
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My Prairie 29 has a T6-3544M marine engine, "Range-4". The service manual I have says that engine carries several different ratings, even though they are all the same engine. The "Pleasure Craft-high" rating is 250 BHP at 2800 rpm. The "Pleasure Craft and light commercial duty" rating is 220 BHP t 2600 rpm, or 185 BHP at 2400 rpm. There are other ratings, but those are the most commonly encountered ones.

My boat is over-propped so it can't even hit 2400 rpm. But, I have the advantage of cruising at low rpm, so there's lower noise and fuel burn.

The distributor for parts for the Midwest and Northeast is Power Great Lakes. They have a very helpful parts department and seem to be able to access everything needed for popular engines like the 6-354. Their phone number for the direct line to the parts department is 888-331-5769.

Personally, I would see no problem for the foreseeable future in supporting a Perkins marine engine.

Good Luck!

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Old 10-20-2015, 04:56 PM   #26
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"My boat is over-propped so it can't even hit 2400 rpm. But, I have the advantage of cruising at low rpm, so there's lower noise and fuel burn."


It is rare that being overpropped is a good thing. The fuel burn on a diesel will not be better with too much prop and often will be worse. The boat speed will demand a specific amount of hp which will equate to a fuel burn equivalent but if you try and pull too much out at lower rpms a number of poor engine issues will begin. If you have a fuel curve for that engine you may see that it is even more efficient at higher rpms (hp vs fuel weight).


Hope this helps
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Old 10-21-2015, 07:24 AM   #27
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Well, Smitty you're entitled to your opinion. For a given power output, being so far below the engine's rating, the lower the rpm the better. Rise 'n Shine is using something like 25 hp to move at 7.5 knots. If I'm turning 1400 rpm it's using less fuel than if it's turning 1800 rpm delivering the same power. It's running at a higher percentage output than if it were matched to a propeller that allowed full rpm.

Since we're talking about something in the range of 10-20% of full power here, the lower the rpm the lower the fuel consumption, no exceptions. Yes, the BSFC (weight of fuel per BHP) is better at higher rpm, but that's running at full output for each rpm point. We're talking a very different case here.

More important than fuel burn, it's also more pleasant to the Commodore from the noise, and her opinion carries more weight than fuel consumption.

Onward!

J.S.
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Old 10-21-2015, 07:39 AM   #28
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"the lower the rpm the lower the fuel consumption,"

When you set the throttle for a specific rpm you are commanding the engines governor to maintain that rpm. The governor will actively add or detract fuel to maintain that rpm despite the changing load as best it can. The function of fuel burned on a diesel is really a function of load. Diesels also really love air and turbulence to get the highest efficiencies so the more air in the combustion chamber the more efficient they tend to be. That coupled with the engine designed for higher hp per fuel weight utilized favor being on or below the recommended prop curve.
Engines with turbo's and intercoolers will see the engine run better in that range and have fewer low power demand engine buildup on or below the curve. I did have a fuel monitor on my Perkins 6-354 but it was a longer while back.
On the 34 Mainship that had the Perkins we added a decent amount of noise shielding which made the engine itself very quiet right up to 2,200 rpms + for not much money invested - just a little time mostly.


Hope this helps
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Old 10-21-2015, 07:47 AM   #29
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Thanks, Smitty, but that's not the point in this particular case.

The power delivered by the engine (and the fuel regulated by the governor to do so) is only that which the propeller delivers to the water. Since Rise 'n Shine only requires roughly 25 BHP to move at 7.5 knots, doing so with an "over propped" screw at 1400 rpm inevitably uses less fuel compared with the same 25 BHP delivery with (what some folks call) "correct" propeller at 1800 rpm.

Ya can't change the physics.

You're in Northport - what state is that?

J.S.
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Old 10-21-2015, 07:53 AM   #30
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Northport is in New York on Long island sounds north shore.


"Since Rise 'n Shine only requires roughly 25 BHP to move at 7.5 knots, doing so with an "over propped" screw at 1400 rpm inevitably uses less fuel compared with the same 25 BHP delivery with (what some folks call) "correct" propeller at 1800 rpm."

We really do not agree on this topic at all - perhaps if 1,400 rpms is a good solution for the fuel use and noise you could prop it to get the 25 hp at say 800 rpms and the fuel would drop to a much lower use and the noise might be so much less.


It is your boat and your engine so each must do what they think is correct.
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Old 10-23-2015, 02:58 PM   #31
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Regarding an oil change, has anyone has success with sucking the oil out through the turbo return line, where it meets the sump? I don't think I get enough old oil out from suctioning at the dipstick. I'm contemplating removing the oil return line and inserting a suction hose down into the sump there.

Thanks,
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Old 10-23-2015, 03:18 PM   #32
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I don't see what you can lose by trying it. The service manual doesn't give much details about that, but I don't see what harm you could do by trying.

It also helps a lot to warm up the engine so the oil isn't cold - much easier to pump.

GOOD LUCK!

J.S.
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Old 10-24-2015, 01:43 AM   #33
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Smitty,
Sounds like you have done your homework, which is the essential factor in "overpropping" your trawler. Most owners don't know what all those curvy lines on the graphs mean!
From there, it is up to the operator to keep the engine in it's happy spot, and not push up the throttle from there.
Exhaust gas temperature can tell you a lot about how the motor is liking being overpropped.
An occasional out of gear WOT test is also a good idea, the motor should always be able to redline easily.
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Old 10-24-2015, 07:43 AM   #34
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"Smitty,
Sounds like you have done your homework, which is the essential factor in "overpropping" your trawler. Most owners don't know what all those curvy lines on the graphs mean!
From there, it is up to the operator to keep the engine in it's happy spot, and not push up the throttle from there.
Exhaust gas temperature can tell you a lot about how the motor is liking being overpropped.
An occasional out of gear WOT test is also a good idea, the motor should always be able to redline easily."


Between the 4 boats that we installed pyro and boost gages on and the many others which we have been able to help do the same you really begin to see the relevance of running within an engines designed parameters. Also learned a lot by keeping a strobe tach handy and using it to determine what the real rpms are to ensue all of your testing past that point has value - many were off by a bunch. We have seen a large number of owners have issues due to being overpropped over the years and many of them have graphed out their experiences with the data they collected on their own pyro ,boost and in some occasions their fuel burned ratios as well. In every case we have seen there was no (zero) fuel use advantage to being overpropped and in most cases measurable increases in fuel economy when returning the boat back to correct prop loads. On another forum there was a similar thought posted about purposely overpropping a diesel to achieve better nmpg at slower speeds - a couple of boats did add more than a couple inches to the props and ran into troubles within a year.
I believe that most of the problem with the entire concept comes from commonly known traits of gas engines which run within a fairly narrow fuel/air mixture and therefore could gain some fuel use margins at vary low speeds when overpropped. Diesels can run at vastly larger air/fuel mixtures and actually enjoy the benefits that larger amounts of air and turbulence bring. When helping other diesel owners which have run slow speeds overloaded consistently I have seen the build-ups of combustion by products in the valve and injector areas as well as in intakes and exhaust elbows (all were 4 stroke 6 cyl diesels).
If you really want to get much better mileage knowing your hull and key speeds sill most always yield a 2:1 reduction in fuel use by slowing down 1-1/2 to 2 knots (ie - say 9 knots to 7 knots)or so (dependent upon hull length). In boats with twin diesels you can also often gain a much smaller margin of fuel economy by running on one engine only if the transmission, electrical power demands and your patience can tolerate that method. But using that technique and raising the boats speed very little above your lowest rpms will then again begin to show signs of overload on the engine that is in use - as we saw when we tracked this data with the pyro and boost gages with a single engine test.
FWIW - this is what we have seen and I hope it helps
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Old 10-24-2015, 10:29 AM   #35
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[QUOTE=smitty477;381242]
We really do not agree on this topic at all - perhaps if 1,400 rpms is a good solution for the fuel use and noise you could prop it to get the 25 hp at say 800 rpms and the fuel would drop to a much lower use and the noise might be so much less.

Smitty, on some small low HP boats being over propped is common provided one never runs the vessel above say a 60% load. The benefits have been cited recently by Nigel Calder in a series of articles which garnered a largely ho hum response from many. Kinda like a global warming debate.

For those who choose to run their diesels they way they were intended, over propping is pretty well understood to be a death knell. On your Bayliner this would be the case, so I ask, can your twin turbo 310 Hinos pull full rated RPM plus about 50?
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Old 10-24-2015, 10:48 AM   #36
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"On your Bayliner this would be the case, so I ask, can your twin turbo 310 Hinos pull full rated RPM plus about 50?"


No, not 50 - it is propped to reach rated WOT +3-5 % on a fully loaded boat on a hot a humid day - in my case that is over 100 rpms above the rated 3,000 (strobed)


"Smitty, on some small low HP boats being over propped is common provided one never runs the vessel above say a 60% load."


That can be true in some case of low hp engines with high slip angles and very high self control on the captains part. In my experience more than 90% of the owners I know will easily push past the safe level when the 7 knots they are accustomed to is challenged by a strong head current, inclement weather or a problem with their schedule. I have seen the most of that while heading up and own the Hudson river where the tides are stringer and they can last your entire trip.
Now instead of traveling at 7 knots you are at 5 or even lower and any normal person tends to push forward eventually. Not a problem with a correctly propped boat at all as it will just use more fuel for the most part.
In the context of this post the engine is unable to reach 2,400 and is used at 1,400 - turbo and aftercooled and not so low powered. When you do want to occasionally 'open it up' to help clean the fuel and combustion path you really can't.
Hoping that everyone has a good boating experience and does not face any unnecessary problems / expenses.
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Old 10-24-2015, 12:40 PM   #37
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One could say that Overpropping is validated by the fact that we had OD transmissions in cars. They got better millage.

But any fool that knows how to drive properly knows that when you come to a hill you downshift. And a boat is always on a hill .. so to speak. In any engine application there is an ideal engine speed to road or prop speed. A car in OD on the highway on basically level ground benifits from OD. A boat using only 25% of it's power going very slow benifits from overpropping ...... as long as they don't over fuel the engine. And it's very easy to do when overpropped.

Running a diesel boat at 25% load is a bad thing to do. Trying to make it better by overpropping is also a bad thing to do. And two bads is worse than one .. or none.

But usually I think overpropping burns less fuel only if the boat and engine are very lightly loaded. But if your running a good load (like 50 to 70%) overpropping won't help and probably will result in higher fuel consumption. I think Marin went fro overpropped to correctly propped and either found the fuel burn stayed the same or became less. But Marin dosn't underload his engines and I don't think he ever has.

So (IMO) overpropping can be of benefit but usually is not. Most people overprop for reduced noise. Some think that's justifiable .. I do not.
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Old 10-24-2015, 02:44 PM   #38
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I also do not believe in over propping. A diesel is a very precise machine and uses fuel based on horsepower used not based on rpm.
By the way my ex boat had a turbocharged diesel and actually made less noise once the rpm got up enough to start producing boost
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Old 10-24-2015, 03:18 PM   #39
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In a gas engine the amount of air AND fuel is regulated. The amount of fuel is regulated by the velocity of air through the cab venturi. The amount of fuel in a diesel is regulated by the injector pump in any given rpm and the throttle position. The amount of air in a gas engine is regulated by the butterfly valve in the carb. But in the diesel full air is always availible. That's basically why it's so lean at lower loads.

So if you prop to anything but rated rpm at WOT there will be lots of mismatch and over fueling beyond a certian point. Ironically though there will be only one rpm that will be matched wether or not it's overpropped. Rated rpm or some rpm below rated that is frequently not known or not known specifically. Some of what I've just posted may not be true of electronically controled emgines.
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Old 10-27-2015, 08:03 AM   #40
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Excuse me if this is too far astray from the original thread topic, but:

Has anyone ever put a block heater in one of these engines? If so, which freeze plug did you put it in? Pictures would be awesome.

-Gabe
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