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Old 07-29-2010, 08:01 AM   #21
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RE: Perkins 135hp diesel questions (slight smoke)

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Woodsong wrote:

Well the good news is that I had a good friend of mine who is a great surveyor come look at her yesterday and he gave her a thumbs up but was a little worried about the steam. As well, when first cranked up, exhaust discharge seemed to be a white milky color and then after that a slight oil sheen on the water at the exhaust. He seemed to think it might be unburned fuel.

Anyone else experience exhaust that starts off white/milky?
Great surveyor?

All diesel engines when starting from cold will experience poor or less than ideal combustion. This results in unburned fuel being exhausted. When this fuel reaches the atmosphere it condenses into microscopic droplets that we see as white smoke, just like fog or water vapor. When those droplets come into contact with cooling water at the spray ring they are carried along to form a surface sheen when that water is discharged overboard. You can reduce this by preheating the jacket water before starting if it bothers you or others in the marina

It is a normal phenomenon that any "surveyor" who feels competent to comment on a diesel engine's condition should be well aware of. .

*
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Old 07-29-2010, 08:27 AM   #22
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RE: Perkins 135hp diesel questions (slight smoke)

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GonzoF1 wrote:

Woody,

Are yours the turbos? I have a friend with two turbo engines and his smoke quite a bit less than mine does.
No turbo, but I do have an Algae-X fuel conditioner on each motor installed by the PO.* I'm skeptical about how they work, but the testimonials on their site claim they reduce smoke among other things.

As far as the steam goes, my exhaust ports go out of the back of the transom and have some cupping that points the gas down into the water.* The videos show what looks like exhaust going out to the side.* The way the exhaust is expelled could have a good effect on how it looks when underway, so the actual amount of steam on my boat might be exactly the same.* Just a thought.

*
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Old 07-29-2010, 01:02 PM   #23
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RE: Perkins 135hp diesel questions (slight smoke)

A fuel sheen on the water behind an older-generation diesel is very common. It occurs for the reason described by RickB. As the engine warms up combustion becomes more complete until it's completely complete and the unburned fuel sheen goes away. It's the nature of the beast.

Newer generation diesels don't do this, are aren't supposed to according to my engineering friend at Northern Lights/Lugger. In fact he told me after we bought our boat that elminating unburned fuel from the exhaust of a cold diesel--- which is pollution after all--- is one of the most challenging things to accomplish when creating a diesel for marine use. I suppose today they can use the electronic fuel metering systems and other technolgies to do it.

But for old thumpers like Ford Lehmans and Perkins, you get the sheen until the motor warms up.

Our engines shoot "milky" looking water out the exhaust when they first fire up--- this is just air bubbles in the exhaust water, probably mixed in with the first shot of water through the riser mufflers. You can watch them disperse after they come out the pipe and then they're gone.
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Old 07-29-2010, 02:01 PM   #24
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RE: Perkins 135hp diesel questions (slight smoke)

Well guys, I have no idea why this thing is flagged. *It says it is waiting for my "approval" but have no clue as to what that means or how to do it. *I will work on it. *In the mean time, seems like y'all can see most of the thread if not the first post...
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Old 07-29-2010, 03:19 PM   #25
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RE: Perkins 135hp diesel questions (slight smoke)

I'm told the Algae-X things are crap.
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Old 07-29-2010, 04:20 PM   #26
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RE: Perkins 135hp diesel questions (slight smoke)

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Baker wrote:

Well guys, I have no idea why this thing is flagged. *It says it is waiting for my "approval" but have no clue as to what that means or how to do it. *I will work on it. *In the mean time, seems like y'all can see most of the thread if not the first post...
haha- no problem. *I reposted the vids. *I originally posted them, then realized one of the links were wrong, so I went back in and edited it and that is when it flagged it. *Maybe the forums thought I was a spammer? *

Anyway, these forums are great!
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Old 07-29-2010, 04:46 PM   #27
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Perkins 135hp diesel questions (slight smoke)

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GonzoF1 wrote:

I'm told the Algae-X things are crap.
If the Algae-X unit includes an actual*fuel*filter, a filter is a filter and as such it could do some good.* Where the Algae-X (and other similar products) get*systematically slammed is for their claims of higher efficiency, fuel "reconditioning,"*less smoke, fuel bug removal,*etc. that are based on magnetic fields.* This has been proven in test after test to be a totally bogus claim, yet a lot of people still fall for it (in the automotive world even more than the marine world).

Whenever I see a sentence in a product description like "ALGAE-X® Fuel Conditioners are self-cleaning, have no moving parts, require no electrical hookup, and are maintenance free." I have serious doubts about the viability of the product.* Even a simple*filter needs to be changed periodically which, in my book, is maintenance.*

My own feeling is that if one wants to improve the quality of the fuel going to the engine install one of more purpose-built filters in the fuel*line (Racor, etc), use a biocide in the fuel if bugs are a problem, get the sludge and other long-term buildup out of your tanks, and use the boat so you have relatively fresh fuel in it at all time.

The good news is--- so far as I'm aware--- that they don't hurt anything other than your wallet if you're the one who bought it.* So if you have one on your boat, what the hell, leave it there as long as you have sufficient fuel filtration to maintain the cleanliness of your fuel with or without the Algae-X unit.


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 29th of July 2010 04:49:16 PM
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Old 07-29-2010, 07:52 PM   #28
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RE: Perkins 135hp diesel questions (slight smoke)

You have to wonder why the magnets in Algae-X and similar items "destroy cell walls and biological matter" but then are recommended to cure arthritis and other ills by wearing them on your person.
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Old 07-30-2010, 05:05 AM   #29
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RE: Perkins 135hp diesel questions (slight smoke)

I've always wondered why the MRI rooms in hospitals aren't connected to the emergency room so those unfortunate souls who had all their cell walls broken down could get help faster.

Even more of a nautical angle, how come none of the radio operators I sailed with (before GMDSS) lost their hands? They all had a few magnetron magnets stuck all over the radio shack and held them regularly. I have actually brought home a couple myself for the kids to play to with, we are all still happily in posesson of our hands and fingers.

They must be very "special" magnets with selective properties of destruction.*
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Old 07-30-2010, 06:59 AM   #30
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RE: Perkins 135hp diesel questions (slight smoke)

Actually Rick, It's just possible that what you just said, although in jest, might just have hit on how the damn things do work. I have always been skeptical myself, but being a medico, I am aware that no-one with any potentially magnetic metal in them can have an MRI, because the magnetron would oscillate these so much they would disrupt tissue. I think, and I know you'll correct me if I'm wrong, these algae probably consume/absorb ferrous metal in minute quantities from the fuel, if an iron tank anyway, and from the other iron tanks the diesel is stored in. Maybe this metal in them does somehow become activated enough by the magnetism in these algae-X thingamies to disrupt their delicate call membranes....? Just a thought.
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Old 07-30-2010, 09:57 AM   #31
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RE: Perkins 135hp diesel questions (slight smoke)

Haha, I knew I'd start a spirited discussion by mentioning the Algae-X unit.* I'm with Marin, if it ain't hurting anything just leave it.** Something nobody has mentioned is that they reccomend that you use the Algae-X "fuel catalyst", which is probably nothing more than fuel conditioner with some biocide thrown in.* Some perceived improvement *might* be atrributed to the fuel treatment.

The PO of my boat also apparently liked to use "Marvel Mystery Oil" since I found about a case of it stored in the forward cabin.

I'm not going to form any decisions yet...* I've had people swear that a raw egg can stop a small radiator leak.* I'd like to see for myself.
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Old 07-30-2010, 10:35 AM   #32
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Perkins 135hp diesel questions (slight smoke)

Black pepper works on radiator leaks also.
Sort of like blood platelets the little chunks just plug the hole.
It'ell get you home.

SD

-- Edited by skipperdude on Friday 30th of July 2010 10:37:16 AM
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Old 07-30-2010, 02:56 PM   #33
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RE: Perkins 135hp diesel questions (slight smoke)

Quote:
Peter B wrote: these algae probably consume/absorb ferrous metal in minute quantities from the fuel, if an iron tank anyway, and from the other iron tanks the diesel is stored in.

You* will probably enjoy this paper:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19928449
<a title="Revista de biología tropical.">Rev Biol Trop.</a> 2009 Sep;57(3):489-504.
<h1 class="title">Bacterial contamination of automotive fuels in a tropical region: the case of Costa Rica.</h1>The abstract mentions sulphate reducing bacteria as the predominate strain, which makes sense, or at least scents.

I don't see any strains that typically accumulate more ferrous compounds than hemoglobin though and while I am far from being qualified to argue microbiology with a medical professional, I don't hear too much about red blood cells detonating during*voyages through the Gaussian caves.

The very name of the magnetic devices is misleading. Algae is a photosynthetic life form and needs light to survive. The worst biological mats I have encountered in diesel fuel originated deep within the bowels of a ships bunker fuel tanks that haven't seen light in any form for several years.
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Old 07-30-2010, 03:08 PM   #34
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RE: Perkins 135hp diesel questions (slight smoke)

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skipperdude wrote:

Sort of like blood platelets the little chunks just plug the hole.

There really is a 6 degrees of separation thing in this thread ... eggs, blood platelets, magnets*...* Egg whites are rich in albumin, albumin is one of the ingredients in some *fire fighting foam formulas as is blood because the albumin and fibrinogen in whole blood helps to stabilze the foam by stengthening the "cell walls"

So, if your radar catches fire, use dry chemical, not foam, because the magnetron might turn the foam back into smelly liquid**
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Old 07-30-2010, 03:22 PM   #35
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RE: Perkins 135hp diesel questions (slight smoke)

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Peter B wrote:

Actually Rick, It's just possible that what you just said, although in jest, might just have hit on how the damn things do work.
I just wrote a long response and it seems to have vanished! Some sort of stray magnetic field I'm sure!

Anyway, I am hardly qualified to debate with a medical professional* on matters of microbiology but there are a couple of points I will argue.

One, the microbial mat found in diesel tanks is not algae, it is bacteria. Mostly sulphate reducing bacteria (hence the stench) and the rest a soup of more or less common critters.

"A total of 149 bacterial strains were isolated, 136 (91.3%) Gram positive and 13 (8.7%) Gram negative. The most frequent genera were Staphylococcus (24.0%), Micrococcus (21.9%), Bacillus (18.8%) and Kocuria (11.5%) among Gram positive bacteria and Pseudomonas (7.3%) among Gram negative bacteria."*

Algae is a photosynthetic critter, it needs light to survive. The worst bacterial mats I have ever had the misfortune to encounter grew in the Stygian darkness of a laid-up freighter whose bunker tanks had not seen*a photon in*any form in many years.

The bacteria which contaminate fuel do not*accumulate iron. They certainly accumulate much less than red blood cells which are rich in Fe contained within the hemoglobin which is why they are rust red. I haven't heard of many patients returning from a voyage through the Gaussian Straits as anemic corpses.


** http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19928449

*
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Old 07-30-2010, 03:26 PM   #36
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RE: Perkins 135hp diesel questions (slight smoke)

Coming to your Marina soon!

The Magnetrons

Featuring

Fibri Nogen - Singing her famous hits!

with

Al Bumin at the Piano.
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Old 07-30-2010, 03:30 PM   #37
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RE: Perkins 135hp diesel questions (slight smoke)

That cracks me up.

SD
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Old 07-30-2010, 03:37 PM   #38
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RE: Perkins 135hp diesel questions (slight smoke)

They were here last week*and*played in front of a huge plasma screen. But I thought the crowd was rather anemic.
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Old 07-31-2010, 02:41 PM   #39
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RE: Perkins 135hp diesel questions (slight smoke)

I must applaud this forum for it's ability to gently hijack a thread in such a good manner- I think I will like it here!

Had a diesel mechanic come out today to look @ the engines. He felt like they were running very good. He thought the excess steam could be due to needing a new impeller and the reduced flow of water from a worn impeller or resulting in the steam???
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Old 08-01-2010, 06:08 AM   #40
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RE: Perkins 135hp diesel questions (slight smoke)

Put your hand in the exhaust stream of water.

Most is barely warm at idle , if yours is almost boiling , a better water flow will be needed.


Smoke on start is no big deal, IF it stops in under a min.

Smoke can indicate poor compression , the most common cause , and it will clear up at operating RPM.

Watching the engine circ water temp gague is the easiest way to judge the compression .

If it doesn't clear up till over 140F , its usually rings time!
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