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Old 09-17-2018, 10:19 PM   #1
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Perkins 135 continuous rpm?

I've been looking to find the continuous rating of the M135 (not the M130, although I'm only assuming there's a difference - I don't know what it would be).

I have a 1006-6 model: dieselparts shows the maximum torque of 431N at 1200rpm, yet the power numbers start at 79.8hp at 1500rpm.

Can anyone help with these data points - I can't find details on:
  • minimum continuous rpm (and whether continuous = 80% or 90% or 95%, ie. that you need to rev much higher every x mins/hr or x mins/day)
  • maximum continuous rpm (with continuous meaning at least 80% of the time, as I will be passage making)
  • neutral idle speed
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Old 09-17-2018, 10:32 PM   #2
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Old 09-17-2018, 10:43 PM   #3
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Read the similar thread on the Cummins 210. The rationale and numbers are similar. There really isn’t a minimum rpm. If you want to run all day at 1,000 rpm, that will be fine.

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Old 09-17-2018, 11:21 PM   #4
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Actually that was the thread that lead me to ask .

I've heard (possibly from someone in a dark pub in a country town, which is even more likely to be correct than the internet ), that for older naturally aspirated diesels:
  • very low rpm needs to be followed regularly (hourly or daily?!) by much high rpm (higher temperature) so the cylinders don't line (can't remember the technical reason)
  • 200rpm below max rpm is an effective number for continuous maximum (I don't say WoT since that's related to the props on a boat, so this 200rpm under is only true if the WoT gets to the engine's theoretical maximum)
So given those points could be true... Then for the Perkins M135,
  • what is the minimum rpm that doesn't need a regular much faster throttle (10min/hour or 20min/day)? Is it 800rpm? 1000rpm? 1200rpm (max torque)?
  • given the maximum rpm of the M135 is 2600, then in theory 2400rpm would be the maximum continuous usage. Would you run it at that?
By "continuous", I mean keep going for 20 days (20days *24hrs = 480 engine hours) across the Atlantic! (ignore fuel consumption and use at high rpms)
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Old 09-18-2018, 12:40 AM   #5
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The M130 is rated commercial. M135 is pleasure. Perkins Sabre brand is marketed to be a less costly engine - read cheaply built. So the M135 is a cheaper version of an already cheap engine. They don't have the same alloys in their parts, especially combustion parts, as higher rated diesels so at any rpm near continuous full rpm causes excessive wear (pistons, rings, cylinders, valves). They are rated at a medium duty 60% load. OEM suggests a maximum of 4000 hours a year that conveniently gets them off warranty by the time problems show up. So max continuous is somewhere around 15-1600 rpm or about 80 hp.
Minimum rpm can be anything above idle.
The reason you can't find ratings easily is the manufacturer doesn't want to state the actual max ratings in print. It hurts engine sales.
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Old 09-18-2018, 01:04 AM   #6
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That's interesting Lepke - thank you!

I hadn't heard about the Perkins Sabre as being low-end for diesels.

Thanks to your hours rating I did find an additional manual which says
  • pleasure duty: 500hrs p.a., 30% load factor
  • light duty: 1500hrs p.a., 50% load factor, full power 2hrs out of 12hrs, reduced power is <200rpm off max rated
  • medium duty: 4000hrs p.a., 60% load factor
  • heavy duty: 4000hrs p.a., 80% load factor
They state the M135 (not the M130) as being medium duty.

I'm quite happy with a maximum 4000 hours a year - I can't imagine doing continuous 11 hours a day, 365 days a year, of engine usage . To me that's fully commercial (and more).

I don't know what their percentage "load factor" is!
For medium duty, is it:
  • of the rpm - 60% of max rated rpms would be 1560rpm (about 90hp)?
  • of the hp - 60% of max rated hp would be 78hp (about 1350rpm trying to read the non-propeller chart)?
  • of time at maximum rpm? (note this would mean the "light duty" explanation is wrong since 2/12hrs = 17% not 50%)
Anyone know what they are quoting with "load factor"?
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Old 09-18-2018, 01:06 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lepke View Post
The M130 is rated commercial. M135 is pleasure. Perkins Sabre brand is marketed to be a less costly engine - read cheaply built. So the M135 is a cheaper version of an already cheap engine. They don't have the same alloys in their parts, especially combustion parts, as higher rated diesels so at any rpm near continuous full rpm causes excessive wear (pistons, rings, cylinders, valves). They are rated at a medium duty 60% load. OEM suggests a maximum of 4000 hours a year that conveniently gets them off warranty by the time problems show up. So max continuous is somewhere around 15-1600 rpm or about 80 hp.
Minimum rpm can be anything above idle.
The reason you can't find ratings easily is the manufacturer doesn't want to state the actual max ratings in print. It hurts engine sales.



Could you point me to you source where you found ::


They don't have the same alloys in their parts, especially combustion parts, as higher rated diesels so at any rpm near continuous full rpm causes excessive wear (pistons, rings, cylinders, valves). They are rated at a medium duty 60% load. OEM suggests a maximum of 4000 hours a year that conveniently gets them off warranty by the time problems show up. So max continuous is somewhere around 15-1600 rpm or about 80 hp.
Minimum rpm can be anything above idle.
The reason you can't find ratings easily is the manufacturer doesn't want to state the actual max ratings in print. It hurts engine sales.
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Old 09-18-2018, 01:39 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarthur View Post
...
For medium duty, is it:
  • of the rpm - 60% of max rated rpms would be 1560rpm (about 90hp)?
  • of the hp - 60% of max rated hp would be 78hp (about 1350rpm trying to read the non-propeller chart)?
  • of time at maximum rpm? (note this would mean the "light duty" explanation is wrong since 2/12hrs = 17% not 50%)
Anyone know what they are quoting with "load factor"?
Answering my own question , it seems that in the industry that "load factor" relates to power, so the second dot point would be correct: a medium duty engine, generating a maximum 130hp, at 60% load factor would be 78hp or about 1350rpms.

Yay...

but, I hear you ask, what does that actually mean?
Does it mean continuous use of 78hp/1350rpm is rated for the engine?
If so, how much time can you go above 1350rpm?

If we take light duty as being not as good as medium duty, "1500hrs p.a., 50% load factor, full power 2hrs out of 12hrs, reduced power is <200rpm off max rated".
To me, the last part can be interpreted as 2600rpm 2 hours of out 12, 2400rpm 10 hours out of 12. But that leaves the "50% load factor" as meaning .... what?
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Old 09-18-2018, 02:27 AM   #9
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Could you point me to you source where you found ::


They don't have the same alloys in their parts, especially combustion parts, as higher rated diesels so at any rpm near continuous full rpm causes excessive wear (pistons, rings, cylinders, valves). They are rated at a medium duty 60% load. OEM suggests a maximum of 4000 hours a year that conveniently gets them off warranty by the time problems show up. So max continuous is somewhere around 15-1600 rpm or about 80 hp.
Minimum rpm can be anything above idle.
The reason you can't find ratings easily is the manufacturer doesn't want to state the actual max ratings in print. It hurts engine sales.







Thought as much
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Old 09-18-2018, 02:37 AM   #10
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Linkies:
  • One 1006 series set of data:
    - rating is "MD" = medium duty, not "pleasure" or "light" (Lepke?)
    - weight 559kg
    - max torque 430N at 1500rpm
  • Perkins' bigger manual
    - max torque 431N at 1200rpm
    - weight 410kg
    - "continuous rating selection" shows power settings 1500rpm-2400rpm only, not less than 1500rpm!

So perhaps this means, trying to answer my own original questions:
  • minimum continuous rpm is 1500rpm
  • maximum continuous rpm is 2400rpm
  • maximum rated 2600rpm is possible for 2 hours out of 12 (ie. at least light duty)
  • less than 1500rpm for any time may need a push to at least 1500rpm somewhat regularly (say about 1 hour out of 24) to prevent bore glazing (not bore polishing)

The only thing I'm concerned at with those figures is saying continuous includes 2400rpm (200rpm of maximum). Assuming I'm happy burning money, this seems to be rather high doesn't it?
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Old 09-18-2018, 02:44 AM   #11
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Thought as much
Meaning no response? I didn`t see one from Lepke. I wondered the source of that view about Perkins too. Always thought of them as robust agricultural beasts.
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Old 09-18-2018, 02:49 AM   #12
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I wouldn't want to run long-term below maximum torque (in my instance 1400 RPM at 30% load.)
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Old 09-18-2018, 02:57 AM   #13
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I wouldn't want to run long-term below maximum torque (in my instance 1400 RPM at 30% load.)



Do you have a Perkins 135 Mark ?
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Old 09-18-2018, 03:01 AM   #14
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Meaning no response? I didn`t see one from Lepke. I wondered the source of that view about Perkins too. Always thought of them as robust agricultural beasts.



Seen a 135 run 11 hours a day for years and years on a gen set All that bad alloys in their parts, especially combustion parts didnt make one ounce of a difference LOL
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Old 09-18-2018, 03:03 AM   #15
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Do you have a Perkins 135 Mark ?
No, a JD 4045 naturally aspirated diesel generating 80 horsepower at 2400 RPM at 100% load for 4 gallons an hour. Usually operate at 1800 RPM at 43% load (a knot below hull speed) and 1.7 gallons per hour.
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Old 09-19-2018, 11:26 PM   #16
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I've got 2000 Perkins Sabre M135s in my DeFever 44. I don't know anything about engine alloys or load factors but they sound and feel pretty happy between 1800 & 2000 rpms. Once a trip I'll wind them up to 2400 for five minutes or so just so I can feel the wallet shrink in my shorts. There's not enough speed difference to go above their happy place.

Two years ago I lost an alternator in Bellingham and took it into a shop and the old crusty guy behind the counter looked at it for a moment and said tractor motor. I said no, nice boat. He said tractor motor and sold me a new alternator for $100. I left pretty happy about my tractor motors.
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Old 09-20-2018, 12:51 AM   #17
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Lepke is a fine TF contributor, but having not provided a source for his criticism or otherwise responded to validate it, I assume the negative comment on Perkins in post 5 is best disregarded in the absence of more information.
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Old 09-20-2018, 07:53 AM   #18
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Meaning no response? I didn`t see one from Lepke. I wondered the source of that view about Perkins too. Always thought of them as robust agricultural beasts.
Yup, that they are. Over 20 million built and still going strong under Cat ownership. The types of equipment they are installed in is significant. Factories are in about 8 countries with the Sabre brand the marinized version. My Sabre engine if painted yellow is the Cat 3056.

The M130 (110 kW turbo version) pilloried by Lepke is a 24/7 engine when coupled to a genet at either 1500 or 1800 RPM. But like all diesels, proper care and maintenance is required. Ignore the basics and cognitive dissonance can result.
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Old 09-20-2018, 07:28 PM   #19
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Oh thanks - I hadn't realised some Cat's were the same.
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Old 09-20-2018, 07:36 PM   #20
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I know of a 4cyl Perkins diesel, with green paint and some extra bits, branded Volvo. The transmission damper had to come from Sweden and cost the owner around $1500AUD.
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