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Old 12-04-2013, 01:33 PM   #21
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Being a retired diesel mechanic I didn't want a engine with a turbo. In my experience turbos are great for adding horsepower & fuel efficiency. But along with that comes a lot more maintenance & for a turbo failure to ruin a engine when pieces get into a cylinder. I'am very happy with my EH-700 Hinos with 175 na hp, the best thing any of us can do for our engines is to perform the proper maintenance at the recommended intervals & to use them.

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No turbo
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:08 AM   #22
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>But if you open up your definition to include most of the boats owned by members of this forum and those include mostly semi-displacement hulls, then these boats aren't overpowered for their mission either.<

Once you are into a semi planing or full planing hull , only the deck house style and interior is left of the trawler concept.
Twin engines that cant take a grounding and tiny tankage to keep the weight down and interior cabin volume up.
Looking at many of the SP and FP boats the motor yacht style construction and layout seems better than the imitation trawler knock off.

HULL speed is a fine mental masturbation concept but usually useless to displacement boat owners , unless they want to wake an anchorage or dock.

Sail boats with free power will see hull speed , but for most gaining a K or two at the price of $200% or $300% more fuel is only done for 5 min as an engine check.

Think the SQ Root of the LWL, as cruise speed , and how to operate there more efficiently .

Its NOT with an engine with 400% more power than is required.
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:41 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by healhustler View Post
How many of our trawler style of boats are over powered, and why?

Originally posted by Reubin Trane

Is this a problem? For those thousands of "trawler style boats" out there I think not. Answering a non problem is fun a keeps the internet thriving.

Is there a better way one might ask. Of course, spend big bucks and buy a new Nordhavn, KK, Greenline, Great Harbor or special build like Tad Roberts, Sam Devlin or Steve Dashew designs.

It is usually about the money, darn it.
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Old 12-05-2013, 08:21 AM   #24
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Or buy a properly designed, powered and built USED displacement cruising yacht - seems to be many out there available at value pricing.
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Old 12-05-2013, 10:02 AM   #25
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I have to jump in here. My GB has the smallest Ford 6 cyl Lehman marinised. It was made in Dagenham England and somewhere around 337 CI and depending on who says, 90-110 HP. I cruise at 8 to 9 Kts at 1700 RPM and can only push it to 12 WOT. My benefit is if I hold the boat to 8+ kts @ 1600 RPM I get 2.5 or better KPG.

The other Lehmans don't get the fuel economy and even the 250 HP can only go maybe 13+ with a lot more fuel burn.

I have a 5500 mile cruise to verify my fuel mileage too.
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Old 12-05-2013, 10:54 AM   #26
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The Kady Krogen 42 originally came with the Ford Lehman 120 then in ~1985 changed to the SP135. Later they came with either Perkins, John Deere and a few others but all 130 hp plus.

Fully loaded (44,000lbs) we need a little over 87 hp to reach a hull speed of 8.4 knots. To cruise at 7 knots we are only using ~51 hp. This assumes clean bottom, no wind, no waves, etc. We have 2 alternators and paravanes so the numbers would be a little higher but we are still not using the hp we have. The only time we have come close to using it is when we have towed other vessels and once when we were soft grounded and we able to power off. If we were to repower, I would probably go with ~100-110 hp.

Larry I don't think a FD boat needs to reach hull speed. The fastest I've ever gone for more than a few minutes is over 1/2 of a knot under hull speed (6.4 knots) and I've never had a real justifiable need to go faster. I've waited for the tide at Dodd Narrows and run at 2 knots for an hour or two but wouldn't have done anything different that I can think of if I could have run at hull speed (7).

I suspect you would be just as well off w an 80hp JD. That would be 3.6hp per ton (a bit low) but I'll bet it's likely you'd have done nothing different with your boat if you'd had the JD. And w the JD I'll bet you could run it very close to the pin .. unlike the Lehman. So you probably have gone for years running under 80hp 100% of the time. We NEVER run at hull speed so what's the point in powering our boats to do so? We should power our boats for 1/2 a knot less than hull speed at a continuous power rating.

And as for windage when it slows us down the resistance of the boat (w a FD hull) descends much more rapidly than at a linear rate so unused power to drive the hull through the water can be used to drive the boat through the air. And if the wind is great the seas will slow us down anyway. With a 40 knot headwind comes 6 - 7' seas in exposed areas and in such conditions I have always reduced rpm by 300. And I've always made acceptable headway.

The JD 80 may be just a tad small for you considering the drag of your stabilizers. Probably need 10hp for that.
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:25 AM   #27
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As to the original question of why trawlers are over powered jtrane hit the nail on the head saying "The move to 54 HP motors was primarily a marketing move - to most shoppers, the 39s seemed too small. Of course, they weren't too small - just perceived as too small". The expression "bigger is better" is not reserved for anchors. I have an 03 Camry 4 cyl and can't imagine why anybody would opt for the more powerful 6 cyl model. The amount of power a FD boat can use is fixed so over powering is just stupid for them.

But for the majority of boats here (SD) it's hard to say what's over powered and what is not as the boat will always go faster w more power applied. So if you were a manufacturer over powering netted you 90% of potential buyers w an over powered boat and probably considerably less than 50% of buyers w a boat that was powered with what a good NA would specify not pushed by the marketing crowd. I'm guessing that would be about 175hp for a GB 36. Then there's those that think they can outrun weather and those that like to "get up and go" once and awhile. And hear on TF probably most are offended by the sound of a diesel engine working rather hard and would rather "chug along" at very low power.

So some of the reasons for over powering still exist and if you were to compare the cost of fuel and income of the 70s you'd probably be surprised to find out it's not that different than it is now.
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:27 AM   #28
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We had a 40' wooden trawler, the "Nellie R," built in Maine by Penbo. She was fitted with a DD 453. Our longest cruise was from Miami to Block Island RI and back - I found her to be most economical at around 6-1/2 knots. I don't recall fuel burn nor top speed (I have the log hidden away somewhere and may dig it out).

This was a wonderful boat! Bargain price when I purchased her in the '70s ($23k vs. $56k for a non-optioned Taiwan Albin 36'). She had mechanical steering (rods and gear boxes) - great Freeman autopilot - hold-over plate freezer and fridge.

Here's a pix of one of her sisters I snapped on the Connecticut River last summer.

Just saw one for sale in Bridgeport CT for $11k (online - not in person).
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Old 12-05-2013, 01:29 PM   #29
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rjtrane,
Wonderful looking boat. She has the same shippy look that the Willard 36 does. Looks like some of the older boats I've seen from SE Alaska's past. I think I'd like the 3-53.

She's way under one knot below HS at 6.5 knots. But if you had run 6 knots she'd have been even more "economical".
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Old 12-05-2013, 02:05 PM   #30
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I will point out that just because a boat has a hard chine doesn't make it semi planing. Many steel fishing trawlers and river tugs have hard chines and could never think about planing.

I saw some interesting boats in Scotland a couple of years ago. There are significant changes in regulatory requirements based on length so they build "rule cheaters". Short and FAT. There was one that was almost ready to launch that must have had a length to beam ratio of about 2 to 1. Flat bottom with the whole width of the aft section swooped up like a Chesapeake Bay Deadrise for the props. This was to be used servicing an offshore fishery in the North Sea. (Sorry for the thread drift.)
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Old 12-05-2013, 02:14 PM   #31
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Back in the day I lusted for the Willard Vega 36 with the aft cabin! The Penbo was the closest I could afford - and it had a "real" well deck forward of the wheel house. The motor was under the well deck, well outside the accommodations.

BTW, I also lusted for the 30' Vega motorsailor - same hull as yours with a bit of a flybridge and a sail rig.

You're right, if i'd have run at 6 knots, even more economical - or better yet, 5-1/2 knots - or .... Back in the 70s, diesel was inexpensive, not like today.

Here's another current example of the Penbo - this one in Portland ME this summer - different deck arrangement - no well deck - well preserved.
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Old 12-05-2013, 03:32 PM   #32
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cummins 6bt 210hp. vessel around 20,000lb. lwl 34' , beam 11'

(full) displacement hull, rounded bilge.


I usually cruise at 1500-1600 rpm. 1.5 gal/hr producing 7.5knots.

WOT 2300 rpm. 15 gal/hr producing 8.5 knots and lots of wake.



overpowered, yes.


Should the motor ever die, I would replace it with the same motor derated to 115hp non-turbo.
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Old 12-05-2013, 03:50 PM   #33
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I would call my 40 Albin trunk cabin with a single FL 120 underpowered if anything, certainly not overpowered. The right power IMO would be around 220 or maybe more as I know the boat would respond with more power. Would be nice to be able to make some tracks at times.
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Old 12-05-2013, 06:04 PM   #34
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jleonard I agree fully your boat could use a bit more power .. or an engine you could run close to full bore .. like a 135hp JD.

bshanafelt a hard chine dosn't make a planing hull any more than a soft chine makes a displacement hull. Your SD boat is one of my favorites though.

rjtrane all the 30 and 36' Willards were called "Vega's" The one you refer to I'm sure is the 30' Horizon. They have smaller windows and are thought of as being the most seaworthy of the 30' Willards. Here's a picture of Willy when we first took her out .. a Nomad w/o FB.
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Old 12-05-2013, 06:45 PM   #35
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A handsome boat! Didn't Bill Garden design her ?
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Old 12-05-2013, 06:51 PM   #36
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Trane,
No. Garden designed the W36 and Rod Swift designed the 30' Willard's.
My boat and I thank you for the compliment. One of the reasons it looks good is that there isn't any clutter on the cabin top, over the transom or protruding from the bow.

To address the thread Willard was about the only boat manufacturer represented on this forum that did'nt over power .. at least on the 30' boats. They installed a 36hp engine and over propped it so only 33hp made it to the prop. The last W30 however has 55hp. So (as delivered) only one W30 was over powered.
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:35 PM   #37
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Eric: You know I love Willy, but I still dream of a stretch model, maybe 65', John Deere 185 single, gyro stabilized, raised pilothouse, masculine mast with a crows nest....a proper vessel.
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Old 12-05-2013, 08:18 PM   #38
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healhusler,
I wish I could call you by name but .. no signature. Is your name David?

Thirty foot boat owners usually don't think big. And how would I pay for the moorage. But what a picture!. Showed it to wife Christine and she really liked it and knew it was Willy right away. She also noticed the good reflection.

Yes I'd love to stretch Willy about 3'. But since moorage is so much I think I'll leave the new chainsaw in the box.
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Old 12-05-2013, 08:54 PM   #39
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OK, maybe your right. I changed my signature. Not sure what happened to the photo though. Seems it got lighter and less contrasted in the upload. I checked the original.....it looks OK. Let me try to republish here:
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Old 12-06-2013, 12:23 AM   #40
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Hi Eric,

Actually, my boat is not SD - I think you actually blessed it once as a displacement(true) hull in a different thread.

see if these pics help. I don't really have a shot of the whole underwater area.

Between your assessment and the fact that the boat simply will not go faster than 8.5 knots, plus she just really feels more comfortable in nasty weather, seems to point to a displacement verdict.

The rounded bilge just means any waves on the beam make for alot of rockin'.
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