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Old 08-17-2013, 06:29 AM   #21
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<The in-line 6 is the most inherently balanced configuration for a 4cycle engine,.>

Seems to work just fine on the 2 stroke inline 6-71 as well.

IF the air police were removed from the mix , the 3-71 , 60-90 hp would be the smooth engine of choice for most of the displacement cruisers now fitted with farm machinery.
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Old 08-17-2013, 09:39 AM   #22
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I believe that with all things accounted for regarding life and limb safety, boat apparatus’ use correctness, and accounting for travel speeds desired that it is perfectly correct to have a boat with single engine or twins or to use one or both of the twins depending on circumstances. I prefer twins!

There is nothing wrong with competent use and maintenance of either gas or diesel power sources in applicably sized/styled/outfitted boats. Having for decades been around, utilized, and/or owned these power types in boats, and enjoying each power type for their individual attributes, it is my considered opinion that I better enjoy the use of smaller pleasure boats with gas engines due to overall reduced cost comparisons, minimized maintenance needs, and greatly quieter noise conditions while underway. With twin screw gassers running and our boat traveling 7 to 7.50 knots (approx hull speed) engine noise is minimal at 1.75 to 2 nmpg fuel usage. With one screw running at 5.75 to 6.25 knots and 2.5 to 2.75 nmpg engine noise is barely discernible. At full plane of 16 to 17 knots cruise speed mellow voice discussions are easy to hear in our boat’s salon while engines turn 3,400 to 3,600 rpm at 1 nmpg. In so far as my purchasing any craft... its power source type is not my end-all consideration, but rather the condition of said power source and what foreseeable costs could arise does play a strong part in my decision of buying nearly any motorized vehicle type – boats included.

That said, I feel there will be great improvements engineered that apply to both types of fuel-source engines during this decade, and, I hope our next craft holds opportunity to take advantage of at least some of these improvements. Currently my/our “Toy Boat”, “Pleasure Cruiser”, “Pleasure Trawler” is a good condition 1977 34’ Tollycraft tri cabin that is fully equipped with all amenities for long duration cruises or general hooking in bays for R&R vacations. It is correctly propped and well powered with real nice running, low hour, low cost, and low maintenance 350 cid, 255 hp Mercruiser gas engines, i.e. “If it Ain’t Broke – Don’t Fix It!

BTW: I am in communication with owner of the exact same model Tolly as we own (his is 4 years newer). He replaced his gassers and with Yanmar diesels while he refurbished his entire 1981 34’ Tollycraft tri cabin to pristine condition. Cost evidently $100K + when all was said n’ done... diesels’ full installation approx $60K. I guess he gets pretty good nmpg now... heard he can cruise 16 knots at approx 2 nmpg; that’s twice as good as what I get with gassers at same plaining speed... and that’s needed by him to offset the $60K diesel engine cost he encumbered. Also, I wonder what the comparison twixt our two power sources is at just below hull spees... 5.75 to 6.25 knots and running on just one engine? Any %age of milage improvement he may get... it wWill take a very long time (many, many years) to offset the $60K engine replacement – I’m sure!

So... let’s run some hypothetical #’s (based on reality #’s - at least as best as I can now ascertain):

1. At 100 hrs per year engine run-time doing 16 knots (1,600 nm traveled at 16 knots) his fuel-use savings (at 2 nmpg / compared to my 1 nmpg) would be - - > him 800 gal / me 1,600 gal = 800 gal less he uses than me. At avg $5 per gal = $4,000 less he annually spends on fuel than me.
2. At $60K to replace Mercruisers with Yanmars and $4,000 annual fuel savings = only 15 yrs to recoup Yanmar installation cost (barring any too costly diesel break downs) via his fuel cost savings. Cool!


At that point (1.5 decades from now) regarding inflated, value-less dollar for dollar ratios my boat may still be worth somewhere near an equivalent to the small amount I originally invested. His 15 yr old $100K refurbishment (inc, $60K repower cost) will have enormously depreciated.

For a “Toy Boat” I just can’t see reasoning behind this! Unless ya gots $$$$ to burn and no place of constructive value to put it!
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Old 08-17-2013, 11:25 AM   #23
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I doubt if any NA would have thought of future owners of their boats running a twin on one engine to save fuel. That would be making do w an unsuitable boat. And I can see why as there are very few suitable boats. Like FD boats or an underpowered SD boat like a 42 GB single. Repowering in the usual way is not cost effective.

I think people are paying all that extra fuel, weight and maintenance to have the redundancy of a twin. But to hear TF talk everyone seems to love singles. Full disp. boats and singles like the GB 42 don't seem to be selling for more money. There's much talk about saving fuel but there's many (or more) Lehman twins here w 760 cu in eng disp. Dosn't add up.

Another thing strange about this is if you're having so much trouble affording fuel to run on how can you afford your moorage? One would need to do a lot of running on both engines to burn more fuel than what moorage costs.

On a typical twin how much fuel can be saved?
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Old 08-17-2013, 11:35 AM   #24
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1. Another thing strange about this is if you're having so much trouble affording fuel to run on how can you afford your moorage? One would need to do a lot of running on both engines to burn more fuel than what moorage costs.

2. On a typical twin how much fuel can be saved?
1. - Dockage is an annual given... depending where you berth. Fuel use is not necessarly at all a given... depending on how you act to save costs!

2. - Buy a twin... you'll like it! While you find answer to your question!!

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Old 08-17-2013, 11:44 AM   #25
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Post #14

"There are a number of old strings on this subject. Timjet and I actually ran some performance tests on our boats that measured fuel burn at the same speed both single a twin engined. For a semi displacement hull running in the 8-9 MPH speed range with one prop freewheeling (lowest drag configuration), the fuel savings is in the 20% range. "

Not chump change if you are using $4-$5,000 in fuel every year and if the price goes up it will be more attractive.
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Old 08-17-2013, 11:56 AM   #26
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Thanks to everyone

Thank you all for your input. I was thinking only of full displacement single engine boats, like my last two (a sailboat and a trawler) but now I'm liking two engines. I still like full displacement and going slow so I'll look for a boat that fits that model.

A few people assumed I couldn't afford fuel. Wrong answer! I just don't like wasting fuel. We conserve, recycle, have a solar system and think we should all help clean up the planet even if you don't believe in global warming (I don't, Admiral does.)

We think we'll be able to buy a boat in the next year so I'll be back with more questions, we'll show up at boat shows and you might see us walking the docks all along the west coast. Right now the leading candidate is a 44' DeFever. But I still have time to change my mind.
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Old 08-17-2013, 12:09 PM   #27
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Most people purchase cruising boats with twin engines and a flying bridge. If undecided, best to go with the majority. For one thing, you'll have a larger selection.
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Old 08-17-2013, 01:15 PM   #28
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If you buy a boat with 2 engines and 2 helms, you have more choices and redundancy.

Mark, I like the new signature. I get the Carquinez definition, but I always thought the Coot was this:

Urban Dictionary: old coot

Perhaps a double entendre?

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Old 08-17-2013, 02:38 PM   #29
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I always thought the Coot was this:

Urban Dictionary: old coot
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Old 08-17-2013, 03:20 PM   #30
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Old 08-17-2013, 06:13 PM   #31
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Mark, I like the new signature. I get the Carquinez definition, but I always thought the Coot was this:

Urban Dictionary: old coot

Perhaps a double entendre?

-------------------------------------------------------

Hmmm, that's what I thought too?? You learn something new every day!!
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Old 08-18-2013, 09:13 AM   #32
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Art, your point is well made but missing two important considerations

One he replaced both power plants with new so you need to deduct that difference from the 60k say less 15k (7500 per side) for everything new. I don't know if you could replace your complete power from props to pulleys for that but should be close.

You need to also add it the resale value into the boat for his re-power, my thought is it would add 25-30k in returnable value. after all he has presumable replaced with new his complete drive system in including gauges. All things being equal I would pay 30k more for his boat then I would for yours, perhaps even 35k.

So now run your numbers not with 60k but with 20k difference and the numbers will be more real, and more appealing.

The net sum for what he did is not unreasonable as you would make it. Most boats in this class have diesels and that makes them more marketable as more people are shopping for them.

Just a fact, I know you like your gas engines and you should, just not as many people share your love of them and that makes your boat harder to sell (less buyers).
I for one would not have a large boat with gas if it was near free. I currently own two other boats with gas (outboard) and have owned 2 other boats with gas inboards both less then 30 foot in the past and they provided great pleasure and performance.
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Old 08-18-2013, 10:35 AM   #33
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Art, your point is well made but missing two important considerations

One he replaced both power plants with new so you need to deduct that difference from the 60k say less 15k (7500 per side) for everything new. I don't know if you could replace your complete power from props to pulleys for that but should be close.

You need to also add it the resale value into the boat for his re-power, my thought is it would add 25-30k in returnable value. after all he has presumable replaced with new his complete drive system in including gauges. All things being equal I would pay 30k more for his boat then I would for yours, perhaps even 35k.

So now run your numbers not with 60k but with 20k difference and the numbers will be more real, and more appealing.

The net sum for what he did is not unreasonable as you would make it. Most boats in this class have diesels and that makes them more marketable as more people are shopping for them.

Just a fact, I know you like your gas engines and you should, just not as many people share your love of them and that makes your boat harder to sell (less buyers).
I for one would not have a large boat with gas if it was near free. I currently own two other boats with gas (outboard) and have owned 2 other boats with gas inboards both less then 30 foot in the past and they provided great pleasure and performance.
Scott - there is great truth in what you say and in some factors you add.

Over the length of a decade and one half there are many “cost”, “ease of use/maintenance”, and "resale" considerations that can become weighted heavily toward one type engine or the other... in respect to engine brand as well as correctness of engine installers’ expertise and their provided actions. I believe due to experience and lessons learned as well as listening to boat owners’ stories about their power train breakdown/costs/needs and also to marine mechanics accountings... that the 15 yr accounting-interval in difference twixt new diesels installed and new gassers installed (considering all things equal re boat owners' ease of use and ongoing good maintenance procedures) will show somewhat reduced cost for gassers if all expenses were to be put on an excel spread sheet... including install, repair, and boat resale at 15 yr end... but I have no rock solid proof on that premise. And, I’m not ever going to have that proof... seeing as a 15 yr blind test utilizing two duplicate boats in drive train comparison would blow me away!! LOL Heck, I’d have to take one boat out for 300 mile jaunt and then jump into the other for same jaunt, during same season, to keep things equal on a comparative basis... accomplishing those turnarounds just for test purposes would make me dizzy and I may fall overboard off one or the other – lmao!

That said... there is no reason I know of that any boater owner should not happily utilize the power source they prefer. This 21K lb when fully loaded, self contained, little 34’ Tollycraft play-toy-cruiser (some call a trawler - lol) we jaunt around in is about as large a boat as I believe applicable for gassers. My personal break point for gas to diesel power is at or below 38 to 40’ on pleasure crafts (depending on weight, hull design, travel-use, and other considerations). BTW: Regarding gassers... 350 cid turning out no more than about 270 hp max are the ones that can last for many thousand hours. Once a 350 marine gasser is hopped up and/or run steadily at more than 60% of its power rating (or propped incorrectly) the engine life-span will be substantively reduced. IMHO, marine 383’s, 454’s, 460’s, 427’s, 429’s and the like are fun to rod around with... but are fuel guzzlers that in the not too long-run can become costly replacements... just waiting to happen; making diesels a true savings in comparison. When I imply cost benefits re gasser to diesel on relatively small cruisers – it is non-hopped-up 350 cid Chevy’s to which I refer; standard power 318 Chryslers and 351 Fords can last a long time too; but, unlike plentiful Chevy parts their parts are not so easy to acquire!

As we head toward future decades in our lives I look forward to when I (Might) decide to kick back a little and really get deeper into more boating. Utilizing a completely different craft than our little Tolly, Alaska to points south with SF Bay/Delta as home ground could become my/our swan song into the sunset. No firm decisions made yet on this... and who knows what factor world events will play into this dream... but, I’ve always got my eyes and ears open!

Happy Boating Daze... Cheers!

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Old 08-18-2013, 11:28 AM   #34
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The biggest problem on this forum talking about twins and singles is that 99% of the time the comparison is between a single w half as much power as the twin and the twin w twice as much power as the single.

If there's any interest at all about objectivity thinking about twins and singles in boats w the same amount of power is necessary. Only then will one be talking about the real differences between singles and twins. Otherwise the conversation will be mostly about a 240hp boat w 760 cu in engine displacement compared w a 120hp boat w 380 cu in. Not talking about twins and singes.

So to compare T&S re the 36GB you'll need to find a 36 GB w a single 240hp engine or a 36 GB w twin 60hp engines. Then you'll actually be talking about the differences between twins and singles.
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Old 08-18-2013, 11:59 AM   #35
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Well put Art and I wish you good health as you look toward your future, may you and yours enjoy it.

As an interesting point to longevity of gas engines and hard use. I captain an air-boat a couple days a week (mostly during the cooler tourist months). cool way to pick up a few bucks and the tips are great, I call it my gun show money.

My friend Bob has two air boats Airboat Tours in Vero Beach Florida - Capt Bob Airboat Adventure Tours and we run the snot out of them. These are cast iron big-block V-8's making 425hp. airplane engines would not like the use/abuse we give them and are 3 times more expensive to buy and repair. Full power starts from idle to WOT (4300 rpm) to next spot then idle for a few min then WOT again. We use 5-8 gal of fuel per trip and run from 4-6 trips a day, each trip is an hour.

The oldest boat is in for an engine rebuild (it was running fine but he wanted to not have any issues coming up to the next season, and needed to spend some money or pay more to .gov) The motor has 4250 hours on the Hobbs,runs fine and uses a qt. in 5 hours use, don't let anyone tell you that gas motors are wimpy. They are NOT quiet motors.

Regards.
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Old 08-18-2013, 01:00 PM   #36
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Well put Art and I wish you good health as you look toward your future, may you and yours enjoy it.

As an interesting point to longevity of gas engines and hard use. I captain an air-boat a couple days a week (mostly during the cooler tourist months). cool way to pick up a few bucks and the tips are great, I call it my gun show money.

My friend Bob has two air boats Airboat Tours in Vero Beach Florida - Capt Bob Airboat Adventure Tours and we run the snot out of them. These are cast iron big-block V-8's making 425hp. airplane engines would not like the use/abuse we give them and are 3 times more expensive to buy and repair. Full power starts from idle to WOT (4300 rpm) to next spot then idle for a few min then WOT again. We use 5-8 gal of fuel per trip and run from 4-6 trips a day, each trip is an hour.

The oldest boat is in for an engine rebuild (it was running fine but he wanted to not have any issues coming up to the next season, and needed to spend some money or pay more to .gov) The motor has 4250 hours on the Hobbs,runs fine and uses a qt. in 5 hours use, don't let anyone tell you that gas motors are wimpy. They are NOT quiet motors.

Regards.
Scott - TY for good wishes and same back at cha! Yesterday I measured my BP... 129 / 73! At 61 yrs I'm still runnen with the youngsters! A life of sports, boxing, weightlifting, hard work... and of course boating/swimming/free-diving all play a part.

Congrats on your Gun show $$$. Air boats sound like and look like a blast O' fun to play with, never been on one myself. There are a few air boats “quietly” stored indoors at our Marina... I think they are govt guys who go out looking for “delta” plantations – if you get my drift!

As you are getting long hours use from your monster gas engines... I can't help but wonder if the long time between rebuilds on airboat motors isn't due to less need for consistent/ongoing torque as well as so often and so pronounced rpm changes?? Needs for torque at constant rpm happens continually to almost any engine[s] when it (or they) push heavy-lug pleasure craft (or work boats) through, or over, the water. Maybe cruiser engines should have an electronic system that constantly makes the motors alter their rpm levels instead of staying at same rpm for hours on end... often actually same rpm for their entire life!

By George!! Maybe we have uncovered a secret to increased marine engine longevity!

BTW - I love your boat!
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Old 08-18-2013, 02:16 PM   #37
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...
As an interesting point to longevity of gas engines and hard use. I captain an air-boat a couple days a week (mostly during the cooler tourist months)...
My friend Bob has two air boats Airboat Tours in Vero Beach Florida - Capt Bob Airboat Adventure Tours and we run the snot out of them. ...They are NOT quiet motors.
On airboats, the ear protectors aren't supplied because they hand out shotguns for practice.

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Old 08-18-2013, 02:26 PM   #38
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So true Mark, interestingly the props make the most noise esp. the tips.
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Old 08-18-2013, 03:49 PM   #39
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Scott - TY for good wishes and same back at cha! Yesterday I measured my BP... 129 / 73! At 61 yrs I'm still runnen with the youngsters! A life of sports, boxing, weightlifting, hard work... and of course boating/swimming/free-diving all play a part.

Congrats on your Gun show $$$. Air boats sound like and look like a blast O' fun to play with, never been on one myself. There are a few air boats “quietly” stored indoors at our Marina... I think they are govt guys who go out looking for “delta” plantations – if you get my drift!

As you are getting long hours use from your monster gas engines... I can't help but wonder if the long time between rebuilds on airboat motors isn't due to less need for consistent/ongoing torque as well as so often and so pronounced rpm changes?? Needs for torque at constant rpm happens continually to almost any engine[s] when it (or they) push heavy-lug pleasure craft (or work boats) through, or over, the water. Maybe cruiser engines should have an electronic system that constantly makes the motors alter their rpm levels instead of staying at same rpm for hours on end... often actually same rpm for their entire life!

By George!! Maybe we have uncovered a secret to increased marine engine longevity!

BTW - I love your boat!
My assistance tow boat is probably somewhere's around 4500 hr also...maybe more..and still pulling strong.

Maybe it's because it gets varies load and rpm all the time...it also gets abused all the time...every week for the summer and lots of the spring and fall.... it gets run for hours (light loads) at well over 210 degrees, and the overtemp buzzer driving me nuts .....pulls for hours at 3000 rpm AT THE PIN (severely overloaded) with the prop surging from cavitation to unground boats, severely overloaded pulling 100 plus foot barges with cranes and tens of thousands of pounds of building supplies, towing for a lot of that time with the prop dragging through the mud dinging clams, oysters, logs, etc....yep...pretty hard lives under all the conditions that people say will shorten their life.

The thing that keeps engines running for a long time is.... use rather than non-use and basic maintenance. My engine gets cheap (bulk) oil at 200 hr intervals. It also doesn't get aligned when misaligned or props redone when dinged or the cutlass changed when it makes the instruments vibrate so bad they are hard to see.

The engine has gotten me home in 11 seasons every time, with just minor on the spot jury rigging at times. I have run it for weeks with major exhaust leaks that sprayed salt over it and crusted dry, ran it for a week with a pencil eraser sized hole in the side of the raw water pump.

Sure I would never do these things if I didn't have to...and probably never with my own engine. But it doesn't mean that that the base engine is gonna come apart because things aren't perfect.

I have no idea when this motor will die...but as the owner once said...none of our fleet has ever just had one fail...they all have given us fair warning.
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Old 08-18-2013, 04:25 PM   #40
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Ask any flight school as to hours they get out of an engine versus a private owned aircraft that gets less then 2 hours a year of use.

Engines seldom wear out they mostly rot away, run every day and used they will go 10X's longer then tied to a dock. If not used then pickle them for storage.
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