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Old 11-19-2013, 11:11 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Robert Durio View Post
My point is that synthetics are superior to their conventional counterparts, and your response is that conventional oils are good enough.

Synthetic lubes are superbly suited for some applications. Mineral lubes are superbly suited in other applications. Sometime those applications overlap, sometimes they are mutually exclusive.

Most people who are involved in operating and maintaining expensive machinery know which lubricants are suited for what and happily use whichever is best for the application.

People who don't really know or understand that most of the world exists between the poles tend to make silly statements.
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Old 11-19-2013, 11:23 AM   #82
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One can't escape the fact that dino oil protects and lubricates engines to over 20,000hrs w/o synthetic lubricants. One must conclude from that that there is not a significant benefit from using synthetic lubricants. Just a waste of money.

Durio how can syn oil be "superior" if dino oil is "good enough"?.
Unless, or course, you want or need an oil that will protect and lubricate that same engine for over 40,000 hrs.

"Superior" is a Objective term that can be determined by discreet, definable and testable parameters.

"Good enough" is a subjective terms

Apples and Oranges, my friend,
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Old 11-19-2013, 11:27 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Robert Durio View Post
Unless, or course, you want or need an oil that will protect and lubricate that same engine for over 40,000 hrs.

"Superior" is a Objective term that can be determined by discreet, definable and testable parameters.

"Good enough" is a subjective terms

Apples and Oranges, my friend,
Can you produce ONE bit of evidence that synthetics will cause an engine to last 2X as long.?

People have been trying to for years and haven't been able to...love to see if you know of one.
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Old 11-19-2013, 11:27 AM   #84
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Synthetic lubes are superbly suited for some applications. Mineral lubes are superbly suited in other applications. Sometime those applications overlap, sometimes they are mutually exclusive.

Most people who are involved in operating and maintaining expensive machinery know which lubricants are suited for what and happily use whichever is best for the application.

People who don't really know or understand that most of the world exists between the poles tend to make silly statements.
Can you think of a single application where a conventional oil is superior to its synthetic counterpart. And please, the question is "superior", not "cost effective".

I have found two, so far

1. Breaking In - Synthetics are just too effective to allow parts to break-in against each other.

2. Roller-lifters - Not enough friction between lobe and lifter to roll roller.
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Old 11-19-2013, 11:42 AM   #85
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Can you produce ONE bit of evidence that synthetics will cause an engine to last 2X as long.?

People have been trying to for years and haven't been able to...love to see if you know of one.
In the aviation industry, synthetic lube have allowed old radial engines to last for decades - DC3-s still fly profitably pulled along by ancient engines protected by synthetic oil.

It is sad, but not unexpected, to see such resentment for and animus against, the "new-fangled" stuff. Luddites even poo-poo'd the automobile
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Old 11-19-2013, 11:46 AM   #86
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Cylinder oil.

There are more than I have patience to play your game with. Have a nice day.
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Old 11-19-2013, 12:01 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Robert Durio View Post

Can you think of a single application where a conventional oil is superior to its synthetic counterpart. And please, the question is "superior", not "cost effective".

.
Yes, dozens if not hundreds of real world applications come to mind where synthetic is not superior.

Highway or off- highway internal combustion engines for cars, trucks and big iron, when new, offer a warranty. In most cases (exotic cars excepted) this warranty stipulates oil change intervals that are identical for synthetics and dinos. The warranty is voided if the hours recommended are exceeded. I have direct knowledge of big iron multi million dollar per year warranty programs that so state.

A 4000 HP haul truck truck engine is pulled after about 18,000 hours and rebuilt to last another 18,000 hours on a rigorous warranty and PM program. I know for a fact if synthetics would provide a 25% greater margin the users and manufacturers would indeed embrace it. It is not only about oil, it is about all the other things that create havoc for an IC engine that the builders and users are on the lookout for.

Preach as you might, the IC world is well beyond the nonsense that synthetic is a magic elixir for what ails us.


The bottom line for years regarding synthetics has been:
  • Good - yes,
  • sometimes better - maybe,
  • always better - no.
Please, the question is always cost effective, not superior - always. And cost effective takes way more into account than the base price per gallon of oil vs synthetic, way more.

I trust you have some credentials?
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Old 11-19-2013, 12:30 PM   #88
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Yes, dozens if not hundreds of real world applications come to mind where synthetic is not superior.

Highway or off- highway internal combustion engines for cars, trucks and big iron, when new, offer a warranty. In most cases (exotic cars excepted) this warranty stipulates oil change intervals that are identical for synthetics and dinos. The warranty is voided if the hours recommended are exceeded. I have direct knowledge of big iron multi million dollar per year warranty programs that so state.

A 4000 HP haul truck truck engine is pulled after about 18,000 hours and rebuilt to last another 18,000 hours on a rigorous warranty and PM program. I know for a fact if synthetics would provide a 25% greater margin the users and manufacturers would indeed embrace it. It is not only about oil, it is about all the other things that create havoc for an IC engine that the builders and users are on the lookout for.

Preach as you might, the IC world is well beyond the nonsense that synthetic is a magic elixir for what ails us.

I see you, in your desperation, have taken to Strawmen ("magic elixir"). When people act so disingenuously, I tend to opt out.




The bottom line for years regarding synthetics has been:
  • Good - yes,
  • sometimes better - maybe,
  • always better - no.
Please, the question is always cost effective, not superior - always. And cost effective takes way more into account than the base price per gallon of oil vs synthetic, way more.

I trust you have some credentials?
I see you, in your desperation, have taken to Strawmen ("magic elixir"). When people act so disingenuously, I tend to discount them steeply

You may recall, that I said Synthetic Oils are superior (a technical assessment). Failing to offer any but pap to that "question", your pulled up the Cost Effective Strawman, and seem to do so only in the short term, never taking the long term effects into account.

By every measure of what an oil does, (film-strength, coefficient of friction, heat transferal, corrosion inhibition, engine cleanliness, startup protection) synthetcs trump conventional hands down - period. I agree, if you are lubing your favorite pair of tin-snips, probably not going to make much difference, but if you are lubing up something every expensive, and vulnerable to heat and friction, go with the best.

I'm outta here. It is obvious that this forum is full of "dino's" with closed minds. Too busy to deal with chumps, especially antique chumps
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Old 11-19-2013, 01:24 PM   #89
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I'm outta here. It is obvious that this forum is full of "dino's" with closed minds. Too busy to deal with chumps, especially antique chumps
You never told us about your trawler.
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Old 11-19-2013, 01:44 PM   #90
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Oops !!


Too Funny!!
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Old 11-19-2013, 01:48 PM   #91
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I use Dino oil because the manual calls for it and with a 20 litre sump, I'm happy with Dino.

I told you the oil question drives people crazy.

Use what you want in your own engine.
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Old 11-19-2013, 03:31 PM   #92
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The few folks that own Da Book for their engine , and actually READ it will note for most yacht service dino oil is all that is needed.

Engine hours is only HALF the equation , so folks that follow the Mfg specifications will probably be changing oil on calender months in the engine , rather than operating hours.

When we see 30-40 year old TT with 2000 hours , does anyone actually think shooting for 10,000 is realistic , never mind 20,000 or LMAO,,,, 40,000?

What a commercial does has zero to do with yachting.
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Old 11-19-2013, 03:56 PM   #93
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... if you are lubing up something every expensive, and vulnerable to heat and friction, go with the best.
This engine is quite possibly the most expensive diesel engine ever built:

http://www.mae.ncsu.edu/eischen/cour...tionEngine.pdf

According to the installation manual the 6 lubrication system oils approved by the manufacturer are all "dino" oils.

I personally don't believe they are suffering from "closed minds" or are trying to scrimp on lube oil.

Wärtsilä RT-Flex96C and RTA96C

Look for the Marine Installation Manual 25.72.07.40 - Issue V.04 - Rev. 0 page F-28 for the list of approved oils.

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I'm outta here. It is obvious that this forum is full of "dino's" with closed minds.
Geez, no need to get snippy ...
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Old 11-19-2013, 05:00 PM   #94
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Still waiting for that ONE PIECE OF DOCUMENTATION to support the statement that synthetics will make engines last longer...

Me a chump?.... maybe...but at least I'm not proving it with unsubstantiated claims...

The other thing I find funny is I just threw away my long list of aircraft accident investigation school diplomas...between all that schooling on equipment maintenance/failure modes... and reviewing maybe thousands of aviation accident reports...I don't recall a one because the aircraft was using dino instead of synthetic....or any oil related failure except total loss from a hardware failure.
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Old 11-19-2013, 05:32 PM   #95
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Ooooh! Things are getting testy! I just changed my oil with 14.5 quarts of Shell Rotela 30 at 200 hours because that's what Bob Smith said to use. And he knows more about Lehmans than I do (that's for sure) and possibly others here as well.

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Old 11-19-2013, 06:12 PM   #96
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JDCAVE,
Me too straight 30W.
Bob Smith must have a good bedside manor as everyone here seems to do just what he says.

Re the synthetic I just checked my Camry,s oil and it's real clean. I've been driving it a lot in the last month or so and would expect the oil to look a bit blackish but it looks like I just changed it. Don't know if it has anything to do w the syn but I felt compelled to mention it. I suspect the syn is recommended so the best numbers will appear on the new car window sticker re gas mileage but I really don't know. In this regard I intend to follow the book.

Why does it say "sent from my I-pad" ?
This is coming from my i-pad .. do you see "sent ...... ?
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Old 11-19-2013, 07:56 PM   #97
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For the moment, take cost out of the discussion. If conventional/dino, semi synthetic, and synthetic all cost the same, what would you use?
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Old 11-19-2013, 08:01 PM   #98
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For the moment, take cost out of the discussion. If conventional/dino, semi synthetic, and synthetic all cost the same, what would you use?
A combo...many experts think the drain off of pure synthetic is too much for occasionally used engines yet the synthetics do have a few advantages...just not enough to switch in my opinion till the price is similar. better to change often than slightly better performance at a longer interval.
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Old 11-19-2013, 08:31 PM   #99
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For the moment, take cost out of the discussion. If conventional/dino, semi synthetic, and synthetic all cost the same, what would you use?
Manufactures recommendation is 30W Dino. It's already gone 37 years with no appreciable wear. What's the point in changing oils now??

It's just like my sailboater friends. . . Why should I feed them 20 year old Brandy, when they're just as happy with Wild Turkey in a red solo cup??

Besides, the dirty rotten biach is going to out live me, sippin Dino, the way it is!! Why should I feed her something special??
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Old 11-19-2013, 08:39 PM   #100
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For the moment, take cost out of the discussion. If conventional/dino, semi synthetic, and synthetic all cost the same, what would you use?
Synthetic, almost regardless of cost, within reason.

Let me try to clear all the haze and obfuscation/diversion etc., from the air.

My assertion is that Synthetic Oil is superior to Conventional

To illustrate, itemize the things oil does

Prevents metal-to-metal contact
Reduces wear from such contact
Reduces friction
Removes heat
Prevents corrosion
Maintains a film during idle times to protect during startup
Keep engine clean and free of deposits
Withstands damage from excessive heat


In all these characteristics, Synthetics win - hands down.

You can go on about Caterpillar, or other people and what they recommend or not if you wish, but that is mute, i.e. beyond the scope of my assertion.

In a head-to-head, characteristic by characteristic competition, Synthetic wins - period.

Sorry to use the "chump" word.
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