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Old 05-09-2009, 04:27 AM   #21
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RE: Oil cooler on FW instead of raw water side of the cooling system

Date: 14h, 13m ago


Don't you wish you had that 356 1500 with the original engine in*it now? $$$$$


NO,, I wish I had held on to the MB 300SL Roadster , I sold (furlough) for $2600 back in 1971 .

No problem tho with the Weymar inflation that will happen after Dumbo monitizes 5 TRILLION more debt , our TOAD a 1980 VW Diesel Rabbit will be "worth" (fiat currency) aT LEAST $100k , AFTER ALL HOUSE FUEL WONT HAVE THE $12.00GAL* ROAD tAX.
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Old 05-09-2009, 10:38 AM   #22
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RE: Oil cooler on FW instead of raw water side of the cooling system

Marin Wrote: "I'm a big fan of speed. If boat, engine and fuel costs were no object, I'd prefer a 15-20 knot boat. But our boating budget wouldn't accommodate that kind of boat ten years ago so we have a slow-poke. But if I can't have 15 knots I can at least have 8. I've got no interest in cruising at 6 knots or less in any kind of boat no matter how low the fuel consumption is. I enjoy a journey as much or more than the destination, but I don't want the journey to become interminable, particularly with our currents up here. Given the twisting courses we usually have to follow through the islands, we almost never get the benefit of a favorable current through a whole journey. We may be zipping along at 11 or 12 knots SOG down Bellingham Channel on a big tide day, but then we'll turn a corner and be going against that same current and we're down to 4 or 5 knots SOG. So you can't really use the currents to help speed up a journey in a 6-knot boat because they'll be slowing you down as often as they'll be speeding you up. The only practical solution in these waters is a faster boat."

This sums up my "preference" for a PNW Boat! Well said Marin...I'm kinda sick of hearing about 1.5 gph, 6.5 kts, etc. My god! I don't want to sit at anchor waiting for a slack tide or one going my way! (Now,* for the "flack".)
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Old 05-09-2009, 12:36 PM   #23
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RE: Oil cooler on FW instead of raw water side of the cooling system

Marin,
I would run your boat 10 knots IF fuel cost was not an issue. I think fuel costs are driving this under loading issue. Guys are running their boats real slow to save fuel and want real bad to be able to feel good about it so when somone like me or Steve D comes along and says they are doing something wrong I/we get covered w tomatoes. Thats OK on the Trawler Forum as it's not too messy. I remember the Albin club where almost everyone thought it was sinful to go over 6 knots and 90 % of the boats were capable of 10 knots and sustained speeds of 9 knots. Never did figure out why going so slow was so appealling to them. I ran 8.5 knots w that boat but later I went to Alaska and back at 7.5 knots. I'm with you in that I like high semi-planing speeds** .. 12 or 13 knots would be super but I need to feel comfortable in Dixion Entrance and I need that 1 gallon per hour as there are great distances to go up here. If I had lots of money a 31' (1960s) Bertram would be in my slip. You talk about "full operating tempeture" and I have a feeling you mean coolant. The coolant reaches operating tempeture long long before the engine is heat soaked. I remember my Albin after a 4 hr run there were lots of things (like the gearbox) that were much hotter than if I had been out for only 30 min. But then the engine load you cruise at is part of my warm up. But then if I had your boat I'd be running it even slower w modifications like removing the oil cooler, running extra high detergent oil ect ect. I'm poor** ..* can't even afford 6 gph. But I can afford my Willard and I've got the time.

Eric Henning
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Old 05-09-2009, 09:51 PM   #24
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RE: Oil cooler on FW instead of raw water side of the cooling system

Hey Slo,
I've got Jaguar in my blood too. In 1969 I had a XK 140 MC roadster, black w red brake drums, wire wheels and red leather inside. This was an open cockpit roadster w leather padding all around the "hole". The top was like a tent. It didn't power down like a convertible* .. you took it down like a tent, folded it up like a tent and stowed it in the trunk. That Jaguar was the best car for picking up chicks EVER. Several times while stopped at a light girls just hoped over the door and plunked right down on the seat. Of course it was a small college town and I was a lot better looking in 1969. My best friend had a 300SL Gull Wing and it was amazing how the two cars almost were a perfect match on paper but TOTALLY different to drive. The SL was a dog to drive but it did wonderful things. You needed both hands on the wheel around a corner (the steering was that heavy). No shifting in the corner. The Jaguar was unpredicable in* hard corrnering when pushed** .. not good but a total sweethart when cornnering as hard as a Mustang at it's raggard edge. The 140 MC had a brass plaque on the dash claiming it to be an exact replica of a 140 that went 149mph for 24 hours on a race track. What a joy that car would be today but it would have an awful chain around my neck for all these decades** .. not to mention the expense.
Walt
There are lots of boats that give great joy to thier owners that never exceed 7 knots. So far I've not sat at anchor waiting for a tide change (or at dockside). Iv'e been slowed to a bit under 4 knots and don't consider it a big problem* ..* "My God" whats YOUR problem Walt. By the way * ..* I burn almost half of 1.5 gph.

Eric Henning
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Old 05-09-2009, 09:58 PM   #25
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RE: Oil cooler on FW instead of raw water side of the cooling system

Eric: You can take the hook out of your mouth now...you came through like a champ!<grin>
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Old 05-10-2009, 05:46 AM   #26
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RE: Oil cooler on FW instead of raw water side of the cooling system

I burn almost half of 1.5 gph.

.75 GPH is perhaps 13 hp fine for a 25-30ft LWL in about a 6-10 ton displacement boat , at 6 maybe 6.5K (good designer , clean hull, right prop.)

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Old 05-10-2009, 08:05 PM   #27
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RE: Oil cooler on FW instead of raw water side of the cooling system

Another short story: in 1983, height of the oil boom in Houston, I decided to look for an E-type. Found some dogs in the want ads and passed. Then went to this Jag repair shop on Kirby Drive, just so happened that it was owned by one of my upper classmen from Texas A&M. Told him what I wanted to do, and he asked what I planned to do w/ the car. Why, drive it every day, take it on road trips for business, etc. His advice was " then you need to buy two cars cause the Jag will spend about half its time and a lot of your money here in my shop". Thank goodness for the Texas Aggie brotherhood, I ended up buying a Datsun 280 Z, hell of a car, 12,000 brand new. Drove it for a couple years and sold it for 8700. Wish I still had that one, it would fly.
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Old 05-10-2009, 10:23 PM   #28
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RE: Oil cooler on FW instead of raw water side of the cooling system

Yea yea Walt* ..* if I did'nt know I was being baited I would prolly be pissed. A man w any hair on his chest can't let an apparent insult go unchallenged. I may mention those dreadful low numbers again* .. even soon. I could put you on hold* .. what kind of music would you like?
Sloboat, The Es are very hot in warm weather and they have less foot room than a Triumph Spitfire and the gearbox is old school but after that** ..* FANTASTIC car. Five gph at over 8 knots for a boat as big as yours seems like really good efficiency. Is it a Cummins ? Walt does real well w his as I recall. Ganged engines! That sounds really interesting. Have you seen the write up on single engines w twin screws, PMM Feb 05 P 112 ? All done w gears. I think the kind of chain you're talking about requires a box w oil like an old Harley and probably a tensioning shoe of plastic. Are you prepared for an over the counter system or are you thinking of a home grown effort ?
FF, 16000lbs disp, 37hp at about 60% load (22hp) running 2300rpm on a 3000rpm engine w a BW gear w 2.57-1 ratio. and a 18X14 wheel. Burn rate .85gph. Indeed your'e very close* .. oh* .. 6.15 knots. Don't tell Walter we were talking about such rediculus numbers. You may not belive it but at a 75% (28hp) load I can achieve a speed in excess of 6.5 knots. I don't live in fear of 6 or 7 dollar a gallon fuel but* getting to the next port or anchorage before dark can be a problem. Actually it's a rather rare occurance.

Eric Henning
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Old 05-10-2009, 11:05 PM   #29
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RE: Oil cooler on FW instead of raw water side of the cooling system

Eric...touche!!* I hope you know I was not denigrating 6.5 kt boats as I can see the logic as well as the economy on such vessels.

All I was trying to say (as well as pull your chain) was that Marin's treatice on cruising boats pretty much coincides with my own thinking. I think that 6-9 kts is a relaxing speed to cruise at. There are times, however, that 20 kts comes in real handy, gph be damned. With that in mind, the GB 41 seems to fit my desires quite well but the jury is still out on the pod thing.

For those subscribers that took my "slow boat" remarks seriously, I offer my sincere apologies. We all can't have a speed demon like mine. (8.5 kts)
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Old 05-11-2009, 03:50 AM   #30
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RE: Oil cooler on FW instead of raw water side of the cooling system

..there are some very interesting silent chain drive designs used in Navy patrol boat research to "link" four engines to twin shafts....no reason they wouldn't work in the opposite direction.

Those gear boxes have SAE 1 so are EZ to use.

I figure a 4 cyl imitation John Deere , as the slow side ,

and series 50 DD on the fast side .

60-75 hp slow, 250-330hp (reliable truck numbers 24/7) on the defuler side.

ZOOOOM!
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Old 05-11-2009, 07:22 AM   #31
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RE: Oil cooler on FW instead of raw water side of the cooling system

I've been on a navy minesweeper that uses the same arrangement. I don't know the particulars, but they were running four engines into two prop shafts. Not fast, but very versatile. As the chief petty officer told my kid, "nobody wants to follow us where we go".
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Old 05-11-2009, 11:50 AM   #32
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RE: Oil cooler on FW instead of raw water side of the cooling system

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:

Marin,
I would run your boat 10 knots IF fuel cost was not an issue. I think fuel costs are driving this under loading issue.
Nope.* To get 10 knots out of our boat you have to run the engines at WOT.* I''ve tried it, and that's what you have to do.* Do that with an FL120 and you're going to make your local diesel shop very, very happy and they'll all be able to go out and buy classic Porsche Speedsters.

*
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Old 05-11-2009, 06:44 PM   #33
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Oil cooler on FW instead of raw water side of the cooling system

Quote:
sloboat wrote:

Pushin' that bow wave. I think the older Grand Banks semi-displacement hulls are closer to their displacement kin than to the planing genre. Not much lift occuring at slower speeds plus a lot of wetted keel surface creating drag.
Very true.* Actually I don't think the* shape of the GB hulls has changed at all until the introduction of the GB44 and now the GB41.* I see the newer charter GBs (mostly 1990s and early 2000 boats) in the yard in our marina all the time and the wetted portion of their hulls look exactly the same as ours.* In fact the molds for the GB36 and GB42 were only changed once in the almost 30-year history of the fibreglass boats.* They were changed in 1988 or thereabouts when both models got a wee bit longer, a wee bit wider, and noticeably taller.* In ours,*made during*the first year of fiberglass, my head touches the headliner in the aft cabin and I'm 6' 3."* In the 1991 GB36 we chartered, I had a few inches of headroom over my head in the aft cabin.

A GB with big engines can be pushed along at a reasonable clip, however. I recall the ads for the GB42 in the late 90s, early 2000s.* They had a fuel burn to speed chart in the ad, and if I recall the numbers correctly, with the stock Cat engines which I think were some 375 hp, the boat would cruise at about 9 knots with a fuel consumption of about*7 or 8*gph.* BUt it could also cruise at about 14 knots with a fuel consumption of about 23 gph.* So perhaps double the speed for three times the amount of fuel.

Based on our own boat, the*"standard"*GB hull can exceed hull speed by a relativley small amount--- a knot maybe--- without a big increase in fuel burn.* But push them up to 12 to 15 knots if you have engines powerful enough to do this and the fuel burn goes way up.

1600 rpm gives us a cruise speed just a bit above the theoretical hull speed (based on the LWL*formula).* At WOT (2500 rpm) the boat does almost ten knots.* But as you say, it's pushing a lot of water around and is VERY inefficient.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Monday 11th of May 2009 06:47:31 PM
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Old 05-12-2009, 05:18 AM   #34
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RE: Oil cooler on FW instead of raw water side of the cooling system

For folks that need a replacement for the old Ford tractor engines , the closest you can come today is the International DT 360 or DT 466.

They have a good power output and don't die from the TT light loading as Skool busses and delivery trucks MUST do frequently.

These are superbly built (the guts I have seen are better than Cat or Cummins) and wonder of wonders there CHEAP!!!


At least there cheap at the truck wrecking yard , although to get a low time NON ELECTRONIC unit is getting harder to find. Were talking $3000 here for a good low time running engine.

Dry stack, keel cooler and a Twin Disc rebuilt would get another 10,000 hr engine in the Hell Hole at minimum cost.

Fully rebuildable the kit is about $750, 3 or 4 times a year on sale , otherwise $900 or so.
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Old 05-12-2009, 12:09 PM   #35
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Oil cooler on FW instead of raw water side of the cooling system

Today insulation is good enough that it is a simple exhaust manifold* option. (but not THAT! cheap for the good stuff, custom fitted )

Marine Exhaust of Alabama may have Ser50 or DT 360/466 wet manifolds , but insulation is good at keeping both the noise and heat in .

Since water would only be injected after the riser , common plumbing fittings could be used , or a "Universal" style , with sufficient diameter.

Either a std COTS belted water pump could be fitted , as most truck and industrial engines have air cond , you could mount the water pump where the air cond compressor was or a set of high quality Obendorfer not Jabsco DC water pumps could be used. The quantity and volume of sea water is not high , easily one skinny V belt.

Dry stack is a horror to contemplate on a built boat , BUT??? a good look would be required before ruling out the best exhaust method ,super KISS!.





-- Edited by FF on Tuesday 12th of May 2009 12:10:43 PM
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Old 05-13-2009, 10:54 AM   #36
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RE: Oil cooler on FW instead of raw water side of the cooling system

Yea, Iv'e often thought of a one off marinization since there are so many great engines out there. Marinization of an engine is a piece of cake after you get past the exhaust manifold and the marine gear/bell housing adapter. I had a Sabre 120 (a British marinazation of the same British Ford engine the Lehman guys used for their 120) and I'm 99% sure it had a welded exhaust manifold** ..* I think it was stainless steel too. Can someone confirm that? Welding a manifold would be a project but I think it could be done. I would start w 2" (approx) exhaust stacks welded to flanges that fit the stud holes on the engine (a scrap cyl head would be handy). Purchase prefab 90 degree elbows and weld in place. Cut the inside box wall out of 2 pices (top and bottom) w half circle notches to fit over the port stacks. Weld, fabricate and assemble the rest of the box and water and exhaust ports. One may need to heat it and burry it in sand to normalize it, stabilize it or whatever it may require. Then the extra thick stack flanges should be milled all straight and flat. Now, I'm ready to be blown out of the water by someone that actually knows what he's talking about. Another very important part of the project would be to pre-engineer the installation to fit the boat. One of the engines I was considering for my Willard would have required cutting away a large chunk of engine bed/stringer to accomodate the starter motor in a fixed position on the flywheel housing. Thats interesting FF about the International Harvester. You mentioned wrecking yard. Is IH still in business ?

Eric Henning
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Old 05-13-2009, 11:13 AM   #37
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RE: Oil cooler on FW instead of raw water side of the cooling system

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:

*I think it was stainless steel too. Can someone confirm that? Welding a manifold would be a project but I think it could be done.
It probably was SS, 304 and 321 works well for a dry exhaust. Personally, I would not bother trying to fabricate a water cooled manifold but would design it to be insulated*then shielded externally. Beyond the manifold itself*I would use external insulation blankets to the point where the riser joins the spray ring.

You can use PVC tubing to mock up the system and if you aren't interested in TIG welding it yourself, take the mockup to a welding shop.

*
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Old 05-13-2009, 01:44 PM   #38
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RE: Oil cooler on FW instead of raw water side of the cooling system

Rick,

*** The Sabre was wet

Eric
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Old 05-14-2009, 04:56 AM   #39
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RE: Oil cooler on FW instead of raw water side of the cooling system

Eric,

My Ford Sabre 80HP has a fresh water cooled stainless manifold, looks like the original one and is still in good shape. Water cooled manifolds get fabricated locally here in Thailand all the time - marinised second hand truck and bus engines are the norm for local vessels. My regular machine shop even makes nice ones that incorporate the heat exchanger tube stack as well for the Isuzu four and six cylinder engines.

Cheers, Leon.
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Old 05-14-2009, 09:32 PM   #40
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Oil cooler on FW instead of raw water side of the cooling system

Sloboat---

This may not tell you all that much as it's a fairly crude illustration*but it's a page out of the Ford Lehman 120 parts manual.* It would appear that there are coolant passages in the sides of the manifold as opposed to coolant tubes running though the manifold.

I know in the case of the FL120 it's critical that the manifold coolant passages be completely full.* There is a petcock at the forward end to bleed air out (it's at the highest point on the manifold assuming*the typical*slanted-aft mounting attitude in a boat).* You never bleed the manifold with the engine running but with it off and cold.* When the header tank on the front of the engine has the proper amount of coolant in it, the level is higher than the front end of the manifold, so opening the petcock will bleed any air that has gotten trapped at the front end of the manifold.* You simply open the petcock a bit until coolant appears.* If the coolant level in the header tank*drops too low and allows an air pocket to form in the front of the manifold, the heat of the exhaust from the forward cylinder(s) can burn through the manifold.

This is not something that has to be checked before every engine start.* The petcock is ued primarily for bleeding the system when the engine coolant is changed.* The coolant level in the header tank, however, should be checked prior to each day's startup.



-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 14th of May 2009 09:38:58 PM
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