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Old 12-10-2010, 07:41 PM   #21
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RE: Oil Change Frequency

I like that post Marin. Don't forget DD 2 cycles as part of the TL fraternity.
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Old 12-10-2010, 08:29 PM   #22
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RE: Oil Change Frequency

Quote:
Marin wrote:
Vehicles (and aircraft)*that incorporate*the Total Loss oil system are easily identified by the puddle of oil that accumulates under the engine after it's been switched off.
What a coincidence, last weekend I got some great pictures of a Mallard that has tubing fittings installed on the lower cowlings for connecting a length of plastic tube going down to a 5 gallon can so they can collect the drips before they either blow on the fuselage or stain the ramp.

Unfortunately, there is something wrong with the picture upload feature today so I can't post the pics.

*
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Old 12-11-2010, 07:44 AM   #23
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RE: Oil Change Frequency

Eric, the bypass filter goes down to 1 micron, which I believe catches most carbon and is below the machine tolerances of the contacting surfaces of a new engine .* I think another aspect is that much of the additive package is devoted to agglomerating carbon so that the OEM filter can filter it out.* Remove the amount of carbon that has to be dealt with and the additive package lasts longer, or so the theory goes.
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Old 12-11-2010, 07:47 PM   #24
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RE: Oil Change Frequency

Marin:
My ex partner had a 78 Rolls that spilled oil all over his parking spot at the office for years. I always thought that was because it was English. After all, their electricals were by Lucas, the Prince of darkness, so how could you expect better of their engines! I couldn't then, or now, understand why anyone would want to stay in the 19th century with those English cars. And pay extra for the priviledge.
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Old 12-11-2010, 09:02 PM   #25
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RE: Oil Change Frequency

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koliver wrote:

I couldn't then, or now, understand why anyone would want to stay in the 19th century with those English cars. And pay extra for the priviledge.
Quote:
koliver wrote: I couldn't then, or now, understand why anyone would want to stay in the 19th century with those English cars. And pay extra for the priviledge.
Because British cars (back then) had more class and style than anything else.* Japanese cars were a joke, German cars were boring, Italian cars were always broken, even the Ferraris, French cars were weird, and American cars were giant chrome-plated turds.* But British cars--- Jaguar E-Types, bugeye Sprites, TR-3s, Morgans, MG TDs and As, Rileys, Bristols, fastback Bentleys, Austin Healey 3000s, Aston Martins, the list goes on--- were fantastic.* They looked like cars should look, they drove great (for their day), and they were just plain cool.

That Lucas business is crap, by the way.* I've had several British cars including MG-TD,* Austin Healey 3000, Land Rover, and Range Rover, and I never experienced any electrical problems other than the electric overdive in the AH which could be a bit iffy.* I've had far more electrical problems with my BMW than I had with all the British cars I've had combined.* And the few electrical problems on the Range Rover have all been with Bosch equipment.
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Old 12-11-2010, 09:11 PM   #26
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RE: Oil Change Frequency

Delfin,
Being as old as I am I remember lots of mechanics thought "full flow" filters only kept out the gravel. Real by-pass filters actually filtered the oil. Catching "most carbon" would indeed be of great value. Agglomerating???? A wild guess*** ...gather in clumps? Hopefully the "clumps" would get to the filter before the bearings. I remember a by-pass system that used TP for the filter element. They still around? How would an aftermarket by-pass system be installed typically? Specifically where would one tap oil under pressure and where's a good place to return it? What hardware should be used to insure minimal chance of leakage? Carl*** ...only if you have plenty of time for this stuff. No question mark there eh?
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Old 12-11-2010, 09:50 PM   #27
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Oil Change Frequency

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nomadwilly wrote: I remember a by-pass system that used TP for the filter element. They still around?
You may be thinking of the Gulf Coast filter.* It uses (I think) a paper towel roll, and they are still around.* Some people--- mostly people who ponied up the bucks to install them--- think they are the greatest thing since sliced bread.* Other people--- mostly people who didn't pony up the bucks to install them--- think they're a waste of time.* It can be as long and drawn out a debate as the "what anchor is best" question.

If you want to look the horse in the mouth you might start with their website, http://www.gulfcoastfilters.com/.

I don't have an opinion one way or the other.* I'm sticking with the big Baldwin oil filter we use on our engine and oil changes every 100-150 hours.* It's a system that's been working for our engines since 1973 so I don't see much point in changing it now.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 11th of December 2010 10:51:27 PM
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Old 12-11-2010, 10:00 PM   #28
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RE: Oil Change Frequency

Quote:
Marin wrote
*
nomadwilly wrote: I remember a by-pass system that used TP for the filter element. They still around?
You may be thinking of the Gulf Coast filter.* It uses (I think) a paper towel roll, and they are still around.* Some people--- mostly people who ponied up the bucks to install them--- think they are the greatest thing since sliced bread.* Other people--- mostly people who didn't pony up the bucks to install them--- think they're a waste of time.* It can be as long and drawn out a debate as the "what anchor is best" question.

If you want to look the horse in the mouth you might start with their website, http://www.gulfcoastfilters.com/.

I don't have an opinion one way or the other.* I'm sticking with the big Baldwin oil filter we use on our engine and oil changes every 100-150 hours.* It's a system that's been working for our engines since 1973 so I don't see much point in changing it now.
-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 11th of December 2010 10:51:27 PMI am with Marin on this one. I had a one hour conversation with the owner of Gulf Coast many years ago, ending with my own conviction that it had merit. He sent me a lot of literature to support his claims, as well as a video which demonstrated their testing. In the end, I found myself compelled to think it a viable product. But, after some deliberation decided not to go that way. Very expensive to set up, and not exactly quantifiable given what the manufacturer was willing to divulge. Bottom line is that I wasn't able to arrive at a bottom line, so decided not to go that direction.

*
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Old 12-12-2010, 06:35 AM   #29
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RE: Oil Change Frequency

Being as old as I am I remember lots of mechanics thought "full flow" filters only kept out the gravel. Real by-pass filters actually filtered the oil. Catching "most carbon" would indeed be of great value.

Guess you are as old as our 6-71N , it is fitted with what was (1950era) a color filter.

This is a factory installed by pass filter , there is NO full flow on the engine.

It operates very different from the "modern " full flow , as with the full flow the oil is dirty black 15 seconds after an oil change.

The 6-71 is very low hours and afyter a change the oil looks fresh for 26 hours!! , and only begins to darken at 50.

WE run 125 to 150 hours (oil sample each time) between changes, on cruise.

But that's mostly 8 o 10 hour days , so perhaps 20 cold starts in 150 hours .

I would go down to 75 hours if the engine use cycles were different.
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Old 12-12-2010, 09:17 AM   #30
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RE: Oil Change Frequency

Gullf Coast (paper towel) Oil filter canisters can be had on ebay.

I got mine for around $80.

Very easy to install on my Cummins 5.9B.


Here is my schedule for oil:
Change the element(towel) every 100hrs + top up oil level which takes 1 gallon.
And do a complete oil change (remove and replace all) every 400 hrs.
I do an oil sample test once a year.


Probably overkill based on the oil report, but oil is cheap.


I do like the fact that my oil remains virtually clear all the time - the GC filter does seem to capture pretty much everything that ends up in the oil.

Also, it makes for an easy 10 minute 'oil change' when we are cruising. The spent filter goes in a ziplock and only 1 gallon of oil is needed, so I don't have to haul around a ton of oil.
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Old 12-12-2010, 09:24 AM   #31
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RE: Oil Change Frequency

Eric, there seem to be two schools of thought on bypass filter strategy.* Well, three actually if you include those who see no value to them.* First are those like Gulf Coast who think that by changing the big by pass filter and topping up the oil you add enough additive package to keep the oil functioning as it should.* That's why they sell a filter without additives.* Second are those like Puradyn who sell a filter that includes a slow release additive package that supposedly keeps the additives at optimum levels.* One function of the additives is to cause the carbon bits to stick together (agglomerate) so they can be picked up by the OEM filter, which usually will let pass anything less than 15 microns.* Bypass filters have a much larger total surface area that filter down to a micron or so, and are plumbed with the inlet to the filter to the pressure side, and the outlet to the oil pan.* On Delfin, the size unit I have filters at about 6 gallons an hour, whereas the OEM filter has the full flow of oil going through it at all times.

Just to be perverse, I have the Puradyn, but use the filter they make without additives because it is cheaper, and I spend the difference on oil analysis.* In any case, I'm only extending the change interval while having the assurance that whether new or not, the oil has very, very few particles in it large enough to cause wear.

I'm not sure whether Gulf Coast uses paper towels, but the TP version was and still is made by Frantz.* Or at least I think it is.

Alternatives are spin filters, which are used on most industrial sized engines, with an interesting and very cheap model being manufactured in India, the name of which I can't remember.*

The argument against bypass filters is an argument against clean oil, whatever your philosophy on change frequency is.* At least IMHO.
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Old 12-12-2010, 11:08 AM   #32
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RE: Oil Change Frequency

Quote:
bshanafelt wrote:

Gullf Coast (paper towel) Oil filter canisters can be had on ebay.

I got mine for around $80.

Very easy to install on my Cummins 5.9B.
BS

I was facing about $800 to convert my boat to Bounty, with all the sundry accoutrements, and no first hand knowledge that it would work. If I could have done it for a hundred or two, I'd have given it a shot.
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Old 12-12-2010, 05:44 PM   #33
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RE: Oil Change Frequency

Love your avitar Cary!
Well*** ...it seems to me my practice of changing my oil more frequently and doing the filter only every third time is better than I thought. Since I only leave one quart of old oil my additive package is mostly changed (80%) so my control of carbon is high relative to my time and money spent on the oil issue. It sounds like the additives in the fresh oil should grab onto the bits of carbon in the little bit of remaining oil make it filterable w the OEM filter. In view of the fact that my new engine will last well over 10000hrs at 80% load and I operate at about 60% anything beyond regular changes probably would be a waste of time and money but I'm a lot like you Carl** ... I get great satisfaction out of doing things a bit closer to perfection that the average bloke.
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Old 12-12-2010, 05:51 PM   #34
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RE: Oil Change Frequency

Where did this "additives grab little bits of carbon" get started? I thought that was the filters job. Chevron has a good description of what additives do on their website - I missed the carbon grabbing statement.
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Old 12-12-2010, 07:06 PM   #35
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Oil Change Frequency

Soot starts out <.05 microns, too small to be filtered out by much of anything.* Without the right additives, the carbon attaches to itself, deposits on parts and causes wear.* The OEM can't filter out particles until they are larger than about 20 microns, which is large enough to cause some wear.

The biggest component of all additive packages in diesel oil (even Chevron's) are chemicals that keep carbon soot from forming large enough particles to cause wear.* Here is what Amsoil has to say about it.* In their statement, they are referring to the kind of agglomeration that occurs without dispersants, that is, when the carbon simply clings to itself eventually making chunky style oil:

AMSOIL synthetic diesel oils are formulated with robust additive packages
that effectively disperse soot particles so they do not agglomerate and
cause engine damage.
In actual on-highway heavy-duty truck field trials, at
soot levels as high as 10 percent volume and higher, AMSOIL diesel oils
maintained an extremely low viscosity of 17 cSt. Excellent wear control was
maintained with an average iron content under 50 ppm. AMSOIL diesel oils
provide outstanding protection against viscosity thickening and soot
generated wear.


But I have been told that there is an effect of dispersant chemicals that enhances soot filtration with the small micron rating of a bypass filter.* The way polyamines that make up the dispersant chemistry work is that they provide a receptor site for a tiny soot particle to attach to, rather than allowing them to attach to each other.* The net effect, I believe, is to create groups of particles and polyamines that are still pretty small - < a couple of microns, but still large enough to be trapped in the bypass filter, if not the OEM filter.*

Sunchaser, for a description of the "carbon grabbing" concept you find elusive, here is an excerpt from another site that explains it pretty well.

Dispersants : These are chemicals that can disperse and suspend solid particles formed in the combustion of fuel that might otherwise be deposited in your engine as sludge.* Consisting mainly of polyamine chemistry, these molecules have* polar heads that attach to acidic molecules and solids such as **soot, and a hydrocarbon tail that keeps it all in suspension until removed by the filter or oil change.* Think of them as pollywogs who surround a particle the fat heads bite the particle and the tails keeps them swimming.* Dispersants are the largest component in the DI pack, especially in diesel formulations where there are a lot more soot particles to deal with.

After installing our bypass filter, the oil got cleaner, but not like new.* I assume this is because there will still be the very small soot particles that can't be caught by the Puradyn, and therefore can't really cause wear, but are enough to darken the oil a bit.

-- Edited by Delfin on Sunday 12th of December 2010 08:07:37 PM
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Old 12-12-2010, 07:36 PM   #36
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RE: Oil Change Frequency

Eric, I don't think the OEM filter will do much good for the size particle formed with normal diesel oil, since they are still too small.* Your changing the oil more frequently will remove the soot, but the OEM filter won't until the particles get up over 20 microns - which is getting pretty big.* The dispersant additives keep the lunkers from forming, but do so by attaching themselves to the soot, making a larger particle still too small to filter by the OEM, but maybe by a finer filter.

Your routine sounds pretty good to me.* Either way, both of our engines will probably outlive us.
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Old 12-12-2010, 09:58 PM   #37
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Oil Change Frequency

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:

Love your avitar Cary!
Well*** ...it seems to me my practice of changing my oil more frequently and doing the filter only every third time is better than I thought. Since I only leave one quart of old oil my additive package is mostly changed (80%) so my control of carbon is high relative to my time and money spent on the oil issue. It sounds like the additives in the fresh oil should grab onto the bits of carbon in the little bit of remaining oil make it filterable w the OEM filter. In view of the fact that my new engine will last well over 10000hrs at 80% load and I operate at about 60% anything beyond regular changes probably would be a waste of time and money but I'm a lot like you Carl** ... I get great satisfaction out of doing things a bit closer to perfection that the average bloke.
Eric, Eric, EricYou know that I don't get credit for my avatar. I stole that photo from Marin. He is actually responsible for three different avatars I have used. He's got a great eye.
I am sort of with you on the oil changes. I began, about fifteen years ago changing oil every hundred hours. Then, seeing that the manufacturer (not that they have my interests at heart) were recommending 250 hours, I had to re-think the whole thing. I now change oil every two hundred hours. I did skip the filter change once, but found mysel feeling so dirty that I couldn't face myself in the mirror (not that it's all that easy under the best of circumstances). I now change every two hundred hours, or once per year. It feels so good to get that off my chest.*

*



-- Edited by Carey on Sunday 12th of December 2010 11:14:40 PM
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Old 12-12-2010, 10:10 PM   #38
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RE: Oil Change Frequency

Delfin

Ahhhh, now I understand. Once again the Amsoil debate.
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Old 12-12-2010, 10:18 PM   #39
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RE: Oil Change Frequency

Tom, it doesn't matter what oil you use, all have the same additives to attract soot, forming 'agglomerated' larger particles, which are still too small to be filtered with the OEM filter.* Amsoil, Delo, take your pick, they all work the same.
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Old 12-13-2010, 04:37 AM   #40
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RE: Oil Change Frequency

"Probably overkill based on the oil report, but oil is cheap."

Dino oil is cheap,

If you ran synthetic you might have a different concept dumping $250 worth of oil.
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