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10-19-2018, 09:52 AM
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#1
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Guru
City: Italy
Vessel Name: Didi Mau
Vessel Model: Currently looking for next boat
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 1,081
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Not getting full RPMs
Last June hauled the boat and painted bottom. On way back to Marina I was able to get full rpms and speed or of my twin Cummins 330s. 2800 rpms at 15 knots.
Today I put the boat back in the water after hauling for hurricanes and can get only 2650 - 2700 rpms and 12 knots. Between the two events I disassembled and cleaned racor 1000s. There is some kind odd check ball/valve on the racor. Any chance a mis install could be causing my issue?
Thanks for thoughts suggestions?
Thanks
Gordon
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10-19-2018, 10:01 AM
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#2
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Guru
City: Gibsons, B.C., Canada
Vessel Name: Island Pride
Vessel Model: Palmer 32'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,409
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Don't know if that check ball would have caused this but there is a right and a wrong way to install the seat it 'seats' on. THere is printing indicating orientation and done incorrectly it can cause trouble.
Mike Negley has written many times about this seat and the need for attention to orientation.
Do you have a vacuum guage on the engine side of the filters? If not they can often help troubleshoot. You just want one with the telltale needle which stays at the highest reading achieved so you don't need to watch it.
Racor offers one as does Designated Engineer, a better one but needs some more fittings usually.
If you have any kind of fuel restriction that will limit power from the engines.
One question when you were down on power/speed, were you getting ANY BLACK OR DARK SMOKE?
If no dark smoke that usually means a fuel supply problem. If there is dark smoke that usually means an air restriction or overload for what ever reason.
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10-19-2018, 10:49 AM
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#3
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Valued Technical Contributor
City: Litchfield, Ct
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 6,775
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The following are probably more common reasons for low power/rpms:
1. Fouled bottom or prop.
2. Corroded turbo exhaus throat due to water intrusion from exhaust.
To check for #2, pull off the exhaust from the turbo and look inside. Any pitting or rust spots is a sure sign of sea water corrosion.
David
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10-19-2018, 11:00 AM
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#4
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Guru
City: Miami
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 800
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Sounds like you may have installed the check valve gasket upside down which is easy to do if you don’t follow racor’s instructions. The lip goes up and the ball needs to sit on the flat edge of the seal not the dished edge. Very counterintuitive.
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10-19-2018, 01:24 PM
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#5
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Guru
City: Italy
Vessel Name: Didi Mau
Vessel Model: Currently looking for next boat
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 1,081
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Thanks for the reply. Favor vacuum gauges read near zero. At max rpm lots of grey smoke, when running normal rpms no smoke
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10-19-2018, 01:27 PM
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#6
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Guru
City: Italy
Vessel Name: Didi Mau
Vessel Model: Currently looking for next boat
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 1,081
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Not bottom
[QUOTE=djmarchand;707805]The following are probably more common reasons for low power/rpms:
1. Fouled bottom or prop.
2. Corroded turbo exhaus throat due to water intrusion from exhaust.
To check for #2, pull off the exhaust from the turbo and look inside. Any pitting or rust spots is a sure sign of sea water corrosion.
Thanks David. New exhaust risers two years ago. They are built so even if they leaked water would go to muffler. Just came from the yard. Bottom is clean as is the running gear.
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10-19-2018, 02:08 PM
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#7
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Guru
City: Cape May, NJ
Vessel Name: Irish Lady
Vessel Model: Monk 36
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,947
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So what changed?
Disassembly and re-assembly of Racor.
Boat hauled and blocked.
Boat splashed back in water.
Anything else? Bought fuel, bumped bottom, air intakes clogged, tank vent clogged, etc?
Affects BOTH engines?
9 of 10 its the Racor somehow.
Do you have a second racor with a selector? If so, valve in second racor and test run.
__________________
Archie
Irish Lady
1984 Monk 36 Hull #46
Currently in Cape May, NJ
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10-19-2018, 02:11 PM
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#8
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Valued Technical Contributor
City: Litchfield, Ct
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 6,775
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[QUOTE=Gordon J;707842]
Quote:
Originally Posted by djmarchand
Thanks David. New exhaust risers two years ago. They are built so even if they leaked water would go to muffler. Just came from the yard. Bottom is clean as is the running gear.
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Exhaust risers failing and leaking salt water back into the turbo are a lesser concern. I appreciate that yours will drain down to the muffler if it fails. The more prevalent problem is sea water backing up from the transom exhaust and getting back into the turbo.
David
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10-19-2018, 02:28 PM
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#9
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Guru
City: Cape Cod, MA
Vessel Name: Island Seeker
Vessel Model: Willard 36 Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,303
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The Racor ball is hollow aluminum and floats on water closing off the passage. I doubt that is your problem. Although it's funny both engines are affected the same, first completely bleed your system up to and including each injector.
Could be that when the hauled the boat they tipped it bow down so water flowed into the engines. I happens but I hope not to you.
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10-19-2018, 03:57 PM
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#10
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Guru
City: Aventura FL
Vessel Name: Kinja
Vessel Model: American Tug 34 #116 2008
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 10,595
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooksie
The Racor ball is hollow aluminum and floats on water closing off the passage. I doubt that is your problem. Although it's funny both engines are affected the same, first completely bleed your system up to and including each injector.
Could be that when the hauled the boat they tipped it bow down so water flowed into the engines. I happens but I hope not to you.
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Check the oil for signs of water, drain the muffler.
__________________
Two days out the hospital after a week in the hospital because of a significant heart attack.
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10-20-2018, 06:34 AM
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#11
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Guru
City: Italy
Vessel Name: Didi Mau
Vessel Model: Currently looking for next boat
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 1,081
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Still no issue
[QUOTE=djmarchand;707861]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon J
Exhaust risers failing and leaking salt water back into the turbo are a lesser concern. I appreciate that yours will drain down to the muffler if it fails. The more prevalent problem is sea water backing up from the transom exhaust and getting back into the turbo.
David
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I cant imagine a scenario on this noat that would make that possible. Thanks for brainstorming with me.
Gordon
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10-20-2018, 08:55 AM
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#12
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Guru
City: Italy
Vessel Name: Didi Mau
Vessel Model: Currently looking for next boat
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 1,081
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Ski, you there?
Any ideas?
Gordon
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10-20-2018, 09:03 AM
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#13
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Guru
City: Vermont
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 10,076
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cafesport
Sounds like you may have installed the check valve gasket upside down which is easy to do if you don’t follow racor’s instructions. The lip goes up and the ball needs to sit on the flat edge of the seal not the dished edge. Very counterintuitive.
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OK, you guys have me going here. I was unaware of any check valve in the Racor filters. Where and why? Are we talking about Racor 500, 900, 1000 filters or maybe something else?
__________________
MVTanglewood.com
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10-20-2018, 09:14 AM
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#14
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Guru
City: Miami
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 800
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Peter all three have them to prevent the fuel from draining back to the supply side resulting in loss of prime. Here’s a nice article that explains it
http://www.racornews.com/single-post...s-Fuel-Filters
*And a brief excerpt for those who can’t access the link.
UNFILTERED THINKING
*
The first misunderstanding about fuel filters revolves around the ball. Many believe the ball serves
*
as a check valve to keep water from going up into the filter element. As the theory goes, the ball is plastic and floats, blocking water. In fact, the ball is aluminum, doesn’t float, and has nothing to do with water.
*
The engineers put it there to prevent fuel from draining out of the filter and back into the supply line when the engine is shut off. The flow of fuel back toward the tank pushes the ball into a seat, acting as a check valve to stop the flow. In some applications, such as when the filter has been installed below the tank pick up, this back flow would not be a concern. But in many applications the filter can be at the high point, and fuel running back to the tank can easily lead to a loss of prime.
__________________
Via iOS.
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10-20-2018, 09:41 AM
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#15
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Guru
City: Vermont
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 10,076
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cafesport
Peter all three have them to prevent the fuel from draining back to the supply side resulting in loss of prime. Here’s a nice article that explains it
Mythbusters: Fuel Filters | Racor News
*And a brief excerpt for those who can’t access the link.
UNFILTERED THINKING
*
The first misunderstanding about fuel filters revolves around the ball. Many believe the ball serves
*
as a check valve to keep water from going up into the filter element. As the theory goes, the ball is plastic and floats, blocking water. In fact, the ball is aluminum, doesn’t float, and has nothing to do with water.
*
The engineers put it there to prevent fuel from draining out of the filter and back into the supply line when the engine is shut off. The flow of fuel back toward the tank pushes the ball into a seat, acting as a check valve to stop the flow. In some applications, such as when the filter has been installed below the tank pick up, this back flow would not be a concern. But in many applications the filter can be at the high point, and fuel running back to the tank can easily lead to a loss of prime.
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Cool, you learn something new everyday - hopefully. I never knew that was there.
__________________
MVTanglewood.com
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10-21-2018, 04:36 PM
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#16
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Guru
City: Italy
Vessel Name: Didi Mau
Vessel Model: Currently looking for next boat
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 1,081
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Thanks for taking
Quote:
Originally Posted by cafesport
Peter all three have them to prevent the fuel from draining back to the supply side resulting in loss of prime. Here’s a nice article that explains it
Mythbusters: Fuel Filters | Racor News
*And a brief excerpt for those who can’t access the link.
UNFILTERED THINKING
*
The first misunderstanding about fuel filters revolves around the ball. Many believe the ball serves
*
as a check valve to keep water from going up into the filter element. As the theory goes, the ball is plastic and floats, blocking water. In fact, the ball is aluminum, doesn’t float, and has nothing to do with water.
*
The engineers put it there to prevent fuel from draining out of the filter and back into the supply line when the engine is shut off. The flow of fuel back toward the tank pushes the ball into a seat, acting as a check valve to stop the flow. In some applications, such as when the filter has been installed below the tank pick up, this back flow would not be a concern. But in many applications the filter can be at the high point, and fuel running back to the tank can easily lead to a loss of prime.
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Thanks for taking the time to explain. I can scratch this issue of my list. Even if wrongly installed Racors are lower than tank pick up.
Gordon
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10-21-2018, 10:59 PM
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#17
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Guru
City: hawaii
Vessel Name: #31
Vessel Model: ex-Navy MUB 50 fish/cruise
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 869
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Cables are known to stretch, limit screws sometimes move, so go through the control system, possibly remove cable at throttle lever and turn by hand to verify top rpms.
__________________
You can lead a horse to water,
But you can't make him ski...
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10-22-2018, 08:00 AM
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#18
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Guru
City: St. Petersburg, Florida
Vessel Name: M/V Sherpa
Vessel Model: 24' Vashon Diesel Cruiser
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 598
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I learned that it doesn't take much to decrease one's WOT RPM. I recently experienced a 200 RPM drop in WOT. I replaced all of my fuel filters and a few fuel lines that were due for replacement, changed the air filter, verified the bottom was clean, etc. My prop received a few coats of bottom paint a year or so ago, which was beginning to flake off in large areas. Combined with some barnacle remnants, I suspected the prop was the issue. I had the prop pulled, cleaned, and dynamically balanced; I used the Velox system for anti-fouling. I now achieve 3600 RPM at WOT, which is 200 RPM over my previous "normal" WOT of 3400--400 RPM over where I was prior to the prop being pulled.
A side note on the prop... My prop is a 16x8 bronze Chinese made Hung-Shen HTP-3 heavy thrust. The prop shop said it was "all over the place" and needed balancing--poor quality control I guess.
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“Go small, go simple, go now”
― Larry Pardey, Cruising in Seraffyn
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10-22-2018, 11:23 AM
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#19
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Guru
City: Italy
Vessel Name: Didi Mau
Vessel Model: Currently looking for next boat
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 1,081
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Ok, i am going to tell on myself. Of course the problem was easy, and i am kicking myself in the tail. My trim tabs did not deploy. Why, one might ask?. I failed to flip the circuit breaker to on. I thought i did not feel the bow go down because we were going so slow. I was wrong. Once trim tabs engaged, she was back to normal.
Gordon
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10-26-2018, 01:25 PM
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#20
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Newbie
City: newport beach, ca
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 3
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Embarrassingly cheap, great resolution.
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