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Old 11-04-2015, 02:10 AM   #21
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OK, so stuff you have used has not hurt you engine. How do you measure or quantify "not hurt" and like wise "does help"?
Not sure how to quantify or measure, just made sense that if you take the Lube out of the fuel, or reduce in the form of Sulfur, motors that were designed to run on the older fuel would suffer. If nothing else, I felt better in doing so.

I kinda look at it as the days when we had leaded fuel for for gas motors, we needed to add stuff to help them run when the govt. decided we didn't need it any more.

And I suppose it won't be long before new technology will change things again. Just a matter of time I suppose.

Again this is just my opinion, and you all know what opinions are like.
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Old 11-04-2015, 06:28 AM   #22
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As sulfur was removed from diesel, lubricity additives have been added prior to sale. They seem to meet the necessary standards.

Seems the concern for this by the big engine manufacturers is, if the fuel don't meet the standard, use an additive...if it does, there is no need to regularly add one.

So it would seem to me, without testing your fuel every fill up you are just guessing, I just havent convinced myself that burning several hundred gallons of substandard fuel every once and awhile will probably not hurt my engine to where I would ever know.

If I use it every time, then for the better, well known and proven additives, of which I don't consider MMO to be a member of, the cost is not great, but there. Also it is just having it on hand when travelling, and adding it at fill ups that is not a big deal, but still an added step. Again for something that is relatively unproven as necessary by any large body of science that I completely trust.

All I know is the vast majority of boaters and commercial operators I know DON'T use additives and don't seem to care and run their engines for as long as anyone else.
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Old 11-04-2015, 06:57 AM   #23
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A fuel additive study done by the trucking industry a few years ago tested a number of diesel additives for effctiveness. Some were found to be helpful. Some not so much, and a few were found to be detrimental. This study was posted by a member to the Grand Banks Owners forum which is where I read it.
Lubricity Additive Study Results - Diesel Place : Chevrolet and GMC Diesel Truck Forums
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Old 11-04-2015, 07:07 AM   #24
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Being a mechanical engineer and also one who has done some fairly extensive testing in the past using the same method used in the diesel place study, I can say results using this method are very reliable.
Therefore I trust the study much more than the "feel good" opinions of mechanics. Facts are facts. Period.
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Old 11-04-2015, 07:14 AM   #25
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MMO, Smells good too!

Has a friend at Mobile that sent MMO to the lab.

#1 diesel, red die and oil of wintergreen for the smell.

If anything for an old diesel I think 2 stroke lube oil would be best help.
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Old 11-04-2015, 08:26 AM   #26
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MMO, Smells good too!

Has a friend at Mobile that sent MMO to the lab.

#1 diesel, red die and oil of wintergreen for the smell.

If anything for an old diesel I think 2 stroke lube oil would be best help.
Fred

I'm glad to learn of lab test done on MMO to find its contents. Is "#1 diesel, red die and oil of wintergreen" all the test depicted... or were there other contents found (or not able to be found) in MMO. I've always wondered MMO contents. Any chance of report on the test?

As an oil additive: I had a very interesting, positive-outcome experience with MMO in a high performance 350 gasoline Chevy truck engine; at 90K mi +/-. It now has 110K and still going strong with same problem not reoccurring.

I.E., Previous Problem: While accelerating during up-shifts entering freeways there was a pronounced heavy puff of grey smoke each time changing gears. Engine emitted no smoke while running at speed or down shifting or while going down hill in compression and then tromping on gas peddle. Per recommendation from an old, seasoned mechanic, I changed oil (always do so at approx 3K mi); included 1 qt Marvel Mystery Oil. By next oil change - problem solved!

This is the only time I ever used MMO.
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Old 11-04-2015, 09:24 AM   #27
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IMO the only mystery in MMO is why people still buy it.
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Old 11-04-2015, 09:27 AM   #28
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As stated above few diesels wear out and mechanical diesels will burn most any oil. So much so that there was a system some time ago that added old lube oil to the fuel to burn it.
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Old 11-04-2015, 09:35 AM   #29
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Any time you use a product for something it wasn't intended there's a good chance undesirable things will happen.

Many over the years that don't know any better use automotive lube oil in two stroke engines. Auto lube has additives in it that reduce the tendency for it to mix w gas so fuel drain into the crankcase will float on top of the oil and evaporate more readily. Obviously you don't want something in your two stroke oil that prevents it from mixing w gas.

I don't think MMO was designed for anything but to sell to people that buy into "tricks" where some mystery product knows better than all the engineers of the land. I am more than suspect of a lubricant labeled "mystery oil". The appeal to suckers is obvious. If it said "Marvel upper cyl lube for Diesel engines" or just "Marvel upper lube" for short and it said (w footnotes) shown to reduce wear by Catapiller, JD ect ect .. whole different ballgame. It's about as snake oil as snake oil gets. Maybe it makes toilets flush better duh. Oh it makes my bathroom smell better .........
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Old 11-04-2015, 10:24 AM   #30
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This has been a discussion for several decades. 21 years and I have not added oil to the diesel as today's diesel already has additives that meet most mfg requirements. Besides we burn serveral hundreds of gallons in the wabasto which burns clean.
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Old 11-04-2015, 10:36 AM   #31
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Phill Fill,
Sure Marine suggested we burn kerosene as our Wabasto was so crudded up from burning diesel. So I replumed a dedicated kerosene tank in the boat. Was it all for nothing? You say you've burned hundreds of gallons of diesel and it burns clean.
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Old 11-04-2015, 11:00 AM   #32
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The trend towards cleaner fuels and bio diesel for improved emissions has created a very large body of science and testing protocols particularly in CA under the CARB banner. My first involvement with CARB was nearly 25 years ago when purchasing tens of thousands of gallons per month of diesel fuel for a gold mining operation.

CARB is nothing if not thorough in diesel fuel testing and compliance. They are the group that busted VW. Anyway, back to biodiesel. CARB found that when performing their test for bio diesel fuel that nitrous oxides were significantly higher when compared to standard Ultra Low Sulfur Fuels. Additives closed the gap. A perusal of the CARB website or Internet will show this study (July 2013) and others using ASTM and CARB guidelines for diesel fuel compliance.

Point being, diesel fuel additives and derived benefits are a science with established procedures not associated with seller hype and dock talk. To be noted in these types of studies, some additives result in non compliant fuel and are illegal. Of course this would never be the case with MMO.
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Old 11-04-2015, 11:14 AM   #33
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Phill Fill,
Sure Marine suggested we burn kerosene as our Wabasto was so crudded up from burning diesel. So I replumed a dedicated kerosene tank in the boat. Was it all for nothing? You say you've burned hundreds of gallons of diesel and it burns clean.

The newer low sulfur burns cleaner. The old high sulfur did smoke and smell.
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Old 11-04-2015, 11:50 AM   #34
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Tom,
I was wondering when you'd say something significant.
As to Mystery oil it's a mystery. Designed that way.

But I suspect that it really does make a good cutting oil. Why that is (if it is) is also a mystery.
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Old 11-04-2015, 12:09 PM   #35
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As far as using fuel lube additives, keep in mind that there are two general classes of injection systems where this matters: Most cars and pickups and some smaller diesels use fuel as a lubricant in the injection pump. CAV, Bosch VE, Stanadyne, 3208, anything common rail. Fuel lube matters there, but it is debatable how much. Other engines like Cummins with inline inj pumps, anything with cam operated injectors such as Detroit, 3116/3126, QSM, bigger Volvo and Lehmans have lube oil in the guts of the inj pump or injection hardware.

The only thing being fuel lubed on these is the plunger/barrel and the injector nozzle valve. These components are not very sensitive to fuel lubricity.

So if you have an engine with oil lubed injection hardware, don't worry about fuel lubricity.

If you have a fuel lubed pump, it can matter. I have a VW diesel car with a VE pump, supposedly sensitive, but I just run pump diesel and not worry about it. My choice. Pump has not failed in 15yr/230k miles so I guess pump fuel is good enough.

In years in the business, I have only seen a few failures of injection pumps due to lubricity. Most were Cat 3208's with ground down cams in the pump, and a couple CAV pumps.
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Old 11-04-2015, 01:44 PM   #36
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The only thing being fuel lubed on these is the plunger/barrel and the injector nozzle valve. These components are not very sensitive to fuel lubricity.

So if you have an engine with oil lubed injection hardware, don't worry about fuel lubricity.
I am trying to wind down my participation in TF but when I see something like this I feel something should be said.

I think the quote above is extremely bad advice, at least for the FL120 and engines with similar jerk-injection systems. I have read a lot about the care and feeding of these engines over the last 17 years since we have two of them in our 1973 cabin cruiser. I've also talked to people in the UK with long careers in maintaining, repairing and overhauling the Ford of England diesels that are the base engines for the Lehman marinizations.

And everything I've read and been told says that fuel lubricity is absolutely critical to the longevity of this type of injection system.

Lube oil, either in the pump sump on the FL120 or fed from the engine on the FL135, is there ONLY to lubricate the pump's drive mechanism. It has no role whatsoever in the lubrication of the fuel injection components themselves. The shots of fuel that are sent by the pump to the injectors are created by the action of the plungers in their bores which have extremely tight tolerances in order to create the very high injection pressures that are required for the engine to operate correctly.

The only thing combatting the wear of the plungers and the bore walls is the lubricity in the fuel. Without sufficient lubricity the plungers and bore walls will experience accelerated wear which in turn will result in lower injection pressures and increased fuel leakdown into the oil sump below. Diluting the lube oil in the bottom of the FL120's injection pump will reduce its effectiveness as a lubricant which is why the FL120 has an injection pump oil change interval of 50 hours.

Gradual plunger and bore wear is the nature of this particular beast. Eventually the wear will begin to affect the injection system and the engine's performance will begin to degrade. The cure is to overhaul the pump, an expensive proposition.

So the goal is to put as much time as possible between "now" and the arrival of "eventually."

Making sure the fuel going through the pump has sufficient lubricity is a key way to do this. Remember, this engine and its injection syatem were designed in the late 1950s to run on diesel fuel with 1950s characteristics.

Whether or not today's diesel fuel contains sufficient lubricity for these engines' old-style jerk-injection components is a matter of debate. I've seen or heard directly more commentary from people in the diesel engine industry that says it doesn't than says it does but neither position changes the engine's requirement for it.

We use a fuel lubricity additive for our two FL120s that was recommended by several people we know in the marine diesel industry when we bought the boat in 1998. Is it helping? Don't know. But based on the performance of the engines over the last 17 years it certainly isn't hurting.

What I do know is that anyone who claims that fuel lubricity should not be a concern to people with jerk-injection engines like the FL120 is someone who's not familiar with the characteristics and components of this type of injection system.

If one is interested in learning how the jerk-injection system used on engines like the FL120 works a good place to start is Nigel Calder's diesel engine book. There is a lot of other excellent information out there on the care and feeding of these types of engines if one knows how to look for it, and there are still people in the UK with an intimate knowledge of these engines based on their working with them during the engines' heyday if one is fortunate enough to meet them.
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Old 11-04-2015, 02:41 PM   #37
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Marin- My point is that the fuel lubed injection pumps such as CAV, Bosch VE, Stanadyne, 3208 and CR are much more sensitive to lubricity than the ones with only plungers, barrels and nozzles exposed.

So if the more critical class lives ok on pump fuel, then the latter class should be ok. And experience has supported that.

In 20yrs, I have seen zero worn out plungers and barrels. Not a common thing.

I do not think it is bad advice to run a Lehman on straight pump fuel.
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Old 11-04-2015, 05:30 PM   #38
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I do not think it is bad advice to run a Lehman on straight pump fuel.
Of course it's not. The vast majority of Lehmans spend most of not all their lives running on straight diesel with no extra lubricant additives added to the fuel. And they run for thousands and thousands of hours.
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Old 11-04-2015, 05:31 PM   #39
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In 20yrs, I have seen zero worn out plungers and barrels. Not a common thing.

I do not think it is bad advice to run a Lehman on straight pump fuel.
If current diesel fuel has sufficient lubricity for the old Simms/CAV/Minemec in-line jerk injection pumps, that's fine. A lot of people in the industry don't seem to think it does and so advise using a lubricity additive. Other people think the makeup of today's fuel is fine as-is. I don't know either way so have chosen to follow the advice of people in the engine industry who in my opinion have a great deal of credibility.

My comment on bad advice was not about whether or not to use additives but the notion that people with this type of pump have no need to be concerned about lubricity. They most definitely do.

As for not seeing any worn out plungers and bores, that just means you haven't seen any. From what the folks with far more experience with these engines here and in the UK than anyone on this forum have told me and from what I've read about these engines over the years, it's the number one cause of a Simms/CAV/Minemec jerk-injection pump needing an overhaul.
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Old 11-04-2015, 06:40 PM   #40
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i Only use Marvel Mystery Oil to help free up stuck valves, lifters and rings in engines that have sat for awhile. Diesels will burn it when squirted into the intake to give dry cylinders and rings a bit of extra oil to seal when turning over. Other than that, it doesn't do much. It's good for getting old engines going and kinda flushing out the old oil and crud. Then change oil and get back on a normal lube and fuel schedule. I've done this with many gas and diesel engines over the years. Regular use of MMO once up and running regularly doesn't do anything that I've seen.

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