My first mainship 34 ! Now a wiring question

[Cooper]

Hello everyone . I just got my first trawler . 1979 main ship with a 160 Perkins . The PO had destroyed all wiring with wire nuts, multiple tie ins . I have a trash bag full of old wires . I have been labeling and tracing everything back as best I can to try to put back as close to factory as possible. Most the main wiring harness has been cut off . I have the key switch out now and realize I only have 2 leads on key . continuous on and keyed on to starter . My ignition side of key has fallen off ? I know enough to be dangerous , but this should go to fuel solenoid to keep open to run the diesel correct ? And shouldn´t this be in main harness somewhere with its own color code ? And the engine did run before I started so there was something there ? Thank you for any advise

 

[Mkeller]

New to me boats (and cars) are always fun. Be glad it's not a marine trader where all wire is red or black.

Given its diesel you would most likely only have on and off unless there is also an accessory position.

 

[DavidM]

I started helping MKeller with his wiring question over on boadiesel. Can any one tell us if the Perkins 6.354 uses an energize to run fuel solenoid or an energize to stop fuel solenoid. Engine manufacturers use one or the other. Cummins are all energize to run and Yanmars are all energize to stop. I am pretty sure the Perkins 6.354 is energize to stop, but please confirm.

David

 

[Cooper]

Yes that is something im curious about also . Mine had a stop button but was not in use . It has a key switch that was used exclusively . I assume it has to provide power to the solenoid with key on to keep it open . But I don't know which wires ? And the factory wiring harness has been hacked up ? It seems pretty easy if someone has been down this road before . And before you could see solenoid moving with key on , but now nothing . I may have to come backward from there ?

 

[boatpoker]

I started helping MKeller with his wiring question over on boadiesel. Can any one tell us if the Perkins 6.354 uses an energize to run fuel solenoid or an energize to stop fuel solenoid. Engine manufacturers use one or the other. Cummins are all energize to run and Yanmars are all energize to stop. I am pretty sure the Perkins 6.354 is energize to stop, but please confirm.

David

My HT6-354 was energized to stop.

 

[Cooper]

So not to sound to ignorant , which I really am . so if I understand correctly the key switch activates the starter but provides nothing to the solenoid . The solenoid is always open , so it cranks when starter hits . When you want to stop you hit button sends a positive charge and it stops fuel to engine while pressed .but as soon as you release it is back open and remains open ?

 

[boomerang]

My 6-354 fuel supply is normally open & the only time the solenoid is engaged is to shut the fuel down & stop the engine.

 

[jleonard]

Yes there is always fuel to the Perkins. To shut it off you energize the stop solenoid button until the engine quits then release the button.

 

[Cooper]

Thank you , starting to understand all this a little better

 

[DavidM]

Which forum would you like to continue with: this one or boatdiesel. I just posted some suggestions to boatdiesel. There are more Perkins owners here. Let me know and if necessary I will repost here and continue.

David

 

[Cooper]

Been watching both to see who responded , but here is totally ok with me .

 

[DavidM]

OK, so lets stick with Trawlerforum. To help those who missed the boatdiesel thread, here are the relevant posts. A bit long.

Me:
I am pretty sure that the Perkins has an energize to stop solenoid, so the ignition voltage doesn´t go there. There should be a stop button or similar. The ignition output from the switch typically powers the engine instruments.

Coopercanvas:
Thank you for responding . It has a push button but was disassembled . When it ran before we didn´t use that button ? the key started and stopped it . would the push button provide 12 volts positive to solenoid to shut of fuel and then remain open after ?

Me:
Well, if the key turned the engine off, that does sound like an energize to run solenoid. But OTOH, what was the push button for?

I just talked to a friend who has a Perkins 6.354 and he confirms that his engine has an energize to stop solenoid and a stop button.

If your engine is able to start and run now, watch the solenoid when you first turn the key and then see if it cranks. If it starts and the solenoid doesn´t move then it definitely is an energize to stop system. Then wire it that way using the stop button to stop the engine.

Coopercanvas:

Thank you .I have no history at all with this boat .A friend sold it for a sick friend .I got a good deal for this reason I am having to learn every step of the way . We brought it back from about 3 hours away , ran amazing at about 1200 rpm and so close to home we tried to run up to 2000 just to see if she would , she did and then flamed out . Like she was shot dead , no sound , no sputter , just dead .fuel system was horribly clogged . Thought if we put clean fuel to it and bleed she would crank. Nothing probably bleed it 10 times now with 5 different people , nothing !Started to think it took all the fuel crud into pump and now clogged . So in the mean time I was redoing the 12 volt and came across the button and key issue ?

Me:
The post on Trawlerforum also confirms it is an energize to stop solenoid. So make sure that the solenoid is in the rest position and stays that way when you try to start it. You can even remove the wire hooked to the solenoid to start it to make sure, then move the solenoid by hand to stop it after it starts.

Have you replaced both the external fuel filter, probably a Racor, and the internal on engine fuel filter? You might also try hooking up a temporary fuel tank to the fuel pump. Maybe the fuel lines are plugged. Use clear plastic hose from the temp fuel tank to the fuel pump and watch to see if the fuel gets sucked up when you crank.

So maybe there was something keeping the fuel solenoid shut (some crazy DC circuit) or the fuel system is plugged or ???? won´t let it start. Fuel, air, compression and cranking speed= start.
**********************************************************

That should bring everyone up to speed. The ball is in your court.

David

 

[Cooper]

Ok solenoid is working . Did power test and manual to see it move . Fuel system was already determined completely clogged and filled with something close to baby poop . Didn't look like algae .Mostly around metal parts and valves , some as hard as roofing tar . Boat say for a very long time up north and condensation from changing temperatures may have allowed growth
? Lift pump and cva filter also had it in them . Previous owner said he idled it here (SWFL ) from up north . So when I brought it up to 2000 I probably pulled junk into Injector pump . Yes I did by pass all dirty filters and put in new fuel line into clean fuel and still nothing . New lift pump came in and will install tomorrow ( bought just in case ) . Have bleed pump every which way from Sunday , Perkins shop maunuel , Internet , Old diesel Guys , cant get more than a weep out of anything . Even top of injector pump and rear return . Shoots great out of the 2 bleeds on pump but just wont come out of top ?Some people have said try to get injector cleaner threw pump and see if it clears? Just don't feel I can get enough in there to make a difference . I'm ok with have it sent out and refurbished if I know I am not missing something really stupid . I now will have to read how to get injector pump off with out disturbing timing if that is next thing to do ?

 

[Cooper]

And also, not that much of a rookie that I didn't check racor main filter before leaving dock. But some one had changed filter and dumped bowl before I got there , so when I looked at it and dumped some fuel it was all good . Never ASSUMED everything was completely trashed . Motor at dock cranked right up . I have on and off commercial fished and chartered my who life and always seem to get my butt handed to me on old strange diesels . Maybe over thinking things ?

 

[Mkeller]

Could you have sucked in air and therefore need to bleed the injectors?

 

[dhmeissner]

Can you check if the baby poop is in the bottom of the fuel tanks? What’s the reason the P.O. ran at idle for 900 miles? How many hours on the Hobbs meter, or was it non-functional? Can we assume no survey?

 

[High Wire]

Are the ring gaskets properly installed on the CAV duplex filter? If not you only get enough fuel to make it look bled. The engine will start for a couple seconds then die completely.
http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s6/cav-filters-29558.html

The mechanical fuel lift pump has an internal filter screen. Anything large that gets by the Racor eventually clogs this screen.

And DO NOT BYPASS FILTERS, REPLACE WITH NEW ELEMENTS.

 

[markpierce]

Your first Mainship 34? How many more do you plan to acquire?

 

[jleonard]

I did an R&R on my then Perkins 160 injection pump and getting timing back was a non issue. I marked everything as I took it out and it went right back in place.
I DO remember having to buy a very long 1/4" drive extension and a 7/16 swivel socket because that was the only way I could get at one of the three nuts that hold the pump in place.
Getting the pump rebuilt will be a good thing. Mine made my engine run so much better afterwards, even though it ran good before.
Any diesel injection shop can do the rebuild, they all have access to the specs and parts.

 

[DavidM]

It sounds like you have massive pluggage in the entire fuel system.

All of the above suggestions sound good to me. At this point, I wouldn't take any shortcuts; I would go through the entire fuel system meticulously. Remove each fuel line, tube and soak them in carburetor cleaner and blow dry with compressed air. Replace the lift pump and hook up a temporary fuel line to a clean tank of fuel.

Then when everything is clean and hooked up, disconnect the fuel tube to the injection pump and crank until you get solid fuel squirts out. Then hook it back up and bleed each injector. If you can't get positive squirts from the injection pump then it is also plugged up.

In that case, take it off of the engine and remove the simple stuff. Don't get into the guts of it- that is best left to the pump rebuilders. Then soak it in carb cleaner. Hold the pump under the cleaner level (it might take two quarts to do it) and rotate the pump mechanism. Let it sit for a few hours, turn it upside down and rotate again. Let it sit for at least eight hours, rotating every few. Then repeat the process with clean diesel but no need to let sit, all you want to do is flush out the carb cleaner and crap.

I wouldn't dream of doing this with an injection pump that I wasn't ready to send to the rebuider if it didn't work, but you may save yourself hundreds of dollars of rebuilding, so what do you have to lose?

Hook it back up, maintaining timing of course and try again. If no go, then it is off to the pump rebuilder.

David

 

[Cooper]

FOUND IT ! Had a good friend diesel mechanic that had a cancelation come by and take a look . We went all the way from beginning step by step , from every screw to filter . Which at first annoyed me because I had done this 5 time , but found his reasoning. He wanted nothing to wonder about himself .Very , very methodical which I came to learn and respect today . He finally got down to injector pump had fuel to it but not to the injectors . They would weep when pumped or turned engine over but never more than weep . Some didn't even do that and others a little more . So after methodically checking everything he decided to take top off pump . Low and behold the pump was not spinning when engine turned . Broke coupler !. The fuel we were getting was from the lift pump pressure. The injector pump stuck in the position kind of lined some of the ports up so we got some in some and none in others and just enough fuel out to look like there was still air in system . Removed pump completely and for sure spin spindle and nothing moved . He thought it might of been a combination of the preasure of the sludge or leaned out from the restriction but now we know ! I don't care that I have to replace it but now I know !!!!! any body have a good suggestion on a pump rebuilder , that's the next step . Thank you everyone for your input.

 

[jleonard]

Any diesel injection shop should be able to rebuild it. Find one that does work on trucks/cars and it should be cheaper than a marine shop.

 

[dhmeissner]

Great find Cooper!

 

[boomerang]

You're lucky to have a friend who also happens to be a competent mechanic! Not only did he diagnose your problem but just as important, you learned a valuable lesson.

 

[DavidM]

I will add your friend to my limited list of professional mechanics. Great job step by step working his way though your fuel system until he found the problem.

Yes, I suspect the gunk overloaded the mechanism and broke the coupling to the engine.

Make sure all of the gunk is gone while you are rebuilding the pump- all the way back to the fuel pick up (screen) in the fuel tank as well as the contents of the tank itself.

David

 

[Cooper]

Again thank you everyone for helping me and offering all the advice . It really helps when your at your wits end and can not come up with a real solution . I know for sure I will be back on here asking goofy questions again soon . It really is a great forum !
Jim

 

[swboater]

my 79 34t is the same

 

[High Wire]

Make sure all of the gunk is gone while you are rebuilding the pump- all the way back to the fuel pick up (screen) in the fuel tank as well as the contents of the tank itself.

David

Really important to purge that junk out of every single line methodically. If it was bad enough to get to the injection pump, the injectors may yet be plugged. That stuff could be laying in wait to finally see some fuel flow to move it down the line.
Let us know how this works out.