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Old 09-13-2019, 11:07 PM   #1
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Mechanical inspection

Hey all, just had a mechanical inspection done on a 40í Puget. It is a single screw Lehman with 5500 hours. Iíve attached the very minimal report. Any input would be appreciated, thanks
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Old 09-13-2019, 11:15 PM   #2
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Technical difficulties

Sorry, having a hard time attaching a readable document
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Old 09-13-2019, 11:50 PM   #3
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Welcome aboard. I could read it. Doesnít look too bad for an engine with 5500 hours on it. Mostly what is called out is belts and hoses which are not a big deal. I am not sure what was meant about a tank protruding thru the deck??? What about the boat overall?
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Old 09-14-2019, 12:45 AM   #4
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I can’t see much regarding a such a minimal report. What I do see is the PO deferred some basic maintenance. If the boat is priced accordingly great.
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Old 09-14-2019, 12:45 AM   #5
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Iíve only seen the boat once, I donít remember anything ďprotruding through a deckĒ. The hull survey is on the 19th. Will be looking a little more thoroughly at it. I didnít think my offer would get accepted😂
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Old 09-14-2019, 12:58 AM   #6
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I'm not a mechanic, and am a relative Lehman neophyte, so there is a lot I can't comment on. I'm assuming you have hired a mechanic to do your inspection/survey - in addition to what is probably a form he completes for every job he does, he should have provided you the opportunity to explain anything you needed to know about the engine condition, and anything he found.

For example, rather than just "fair" for hose condition, my mechanic told me that one specific hose simply must be replaced right away because it had oil leaked/soaked on it from an overfill of one of the injector pumps and there was no telling what its integrity was. And because of a lack of records or marking of installation dates, he recommended I replace every hose so I would have a baseline new hose installation date for my own piece of mind as soon as practicable.

I also see it is marked "oil leaks", which is true for (I think I've read) just about every Lehman engine out there. The question is, are they all the little annoying leaks that we all have, or problem leak that will cause you to have do do something to the engine. Again, hopefully he's told you that. We all have white diapers in our drip pans to catch those leaks, and replace them regularly to keep the mess from accumulating and watch for anything new cropping up, maybe that engine drip pan is a mess at it looks like rags, or the PO really does have rags down there?

I took a look at that Puget trawler about 16 months ago, not sure how much use its had or how much use it had HAD. We didn't look that close as the layout didn't suit us, and we weren't looking for a boat with teak decks. My understanding from the broker at the time was the owner lives in Montana.

Your brief mech survey doesn't seem to have much info on what happened with it at sea trial - just oil pres at cold and warm temps. I'm hoping you've had one, or will have one. Where the boat is to get a legitimate sea trial in you'll have to spend some time to get out of the no wake area so you can run the engine up to WOT for a bit to make sure you don't have any cooling or other issues.

I also note it has the same funky exhaust my boat came with. I initially thought that it was some sort of aftermarket shortcut someone added, but Harbor Marine in Everett provided me an original Lehman sales brochure showing those appeared to an original option or available exhaust. In talking with the current experts, American Diesel (Brian Smith, son of Lehman designer Bob Smith) those exhausts are not desirable due to their weight and the fact they don't actually provide any cooling right up against the exhaust manifold because of the required non-cooled adapter. Additionally, mine weren't plumbed correctly, from the photos and my memory I don't know if yours are. There is supposed to be water injected both low (in the riser) and high (in the top of the elbow) in them. The report says the riser is new, I see the photo now and the one from last year are the same, so they only replaced half of the system, its likely the lower piece corrodes away quicker? Dunno. All the more reason to make sure you have a good sea trial and that the cooling system as it exists is working up to par.

If this was supposed to be a survey of the boat, it is woefully lacking. The water tank protruding through the lazarette is concerning. I would be worried that is a symptom of a soft deck that has settled onto the tank. The one photo I have of that aft deck shows the fill back there, I wonder if he's talking about the fill is proud of the deck?

I wish you luck in your quest to purchase the boat - these old trawlers are a lot of fun and a lot of boat, but they can be a lot of work too!
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Old 09-14-2019, 01:05 AM   #7
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Thanks Fractal phreak. Depending on the survey on the 19th I may have to hit you up for some more info
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Old 09-14-2019, 05:33 AM   #8
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To me the simplest engine survey is to start it from COLD (not run for 24 hours) and watch the color and time of the exhaust to clear under light load..
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Old 09-14-2019, 08:44 AM   #9
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So many things.... that is indeed a very minimal report. The Lehman engines are very solid reliable engines, easily capable of many more than 5000hrs but they still need maintenance. First the basics. Oil level ok? And if the oil hasn't been changed since 2015 it should be changed soon. Antifreeze was green, but what about its concentration which is easily checked? If the antifreeze hasn't been changed in a couple of years or more, it should also be changed. Hoses fair? A blown hose is an easy way to overheat an engine. Oil leaks, but from what area? Most Lehmans at least weep a little oil and that's relatively normal, but not from someplace like the front or rear main seals or injector pump. It states "new riser" but Lehmans don't normally have a riser. I assume it means a new mixing elbow? An 80 or 120 uses a cast iron elbow which must be replaced periodically, the 90 and 135 use a stainless steel mixing elbow which has a much longer life so I assume this is an 80 or 120 and probably a 120. On a 120 the injection pump oil needs regular changing. At the very least the level should be checked. No comments about smoke or smoothness or noise. No comments about the transmission. What type, oil level, oil color ok, etc. Also no comments about maintenance records. If they exist can be very helpful. If they don't exist that would tell me random and probably missed some maintenance. Put dressing on belt? No, if the belt isn't perfect, change it.

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Old 09-14-2019, 11:14 AM   #10
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Very perfunctory report without any helpful analysis.
I agree, just replace the belt. In fact I would replace all hoses in ER. Keep decent ones as spares. Very surprised he did not check transmission. Simple job to pull control valve out to see if it is rusty, pitted, or gunked up. All indicating a rebuild. Did he check the zinc in the heat exchanger? Considering the lack of maintenance I think new coolers and heat exchanger would be on the replacement list.
Did he check exhaust water output? No indication that he did. Any smoke?
Oil pressure seems low. Mine is 50psi for 2500 hour engine.
If this is the boat on yachtworld the hot water heater is rusted out. I would suspect the generator to be in similiar shape.

Nothing that is a show stopper. A thousand in parts and DIY will get engine back into shape (ignoring low compression) Another thousand or two in misc. such as heater. Yard labor would double the price
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Old 09-16-2019, 06:38 PM   #11
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Oil samples

Ok, I got the oil samples back. The only one that came back with red flags is the transmission. The mechanic just stated that the oil needed to be changed. At what point is it indicating that the transmission is toast? Are there any tests I can do to further check the transmission? I am getting the hull survey and doing the sea trial on the 19th.
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Old 09-16-2019, 10:12 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanna-b View Post
Ok, I got the oil samples back. The only one that came back with red flags is the transmission. The mechanic just stated that the oil needed to be changed. At what point is it indicating that the transmission is toast? Are there any tests I can do to further check the transmission? I am getting the hull survey and doing the sea trial on the 19th.
I'm not sure how fast those number can build up in older oil. Hopefully someone with more experience with that than I can weigh in.

I think it depends on when the oil was last changed. If its been run for 2-3 oil change intervals (or more) then I would think higher than normal levels of certain items could be expected (ie deferred maintenance). If, on the other hand, that oil sample represents only a portion of a normal oil change interval, then it could represent a transmission with a problem...

What I've learned is that the oil tests are really advantageous when you do them on a regular basis, or rather, periodically at regular times during the oil change interval (like right at 100 hrs each time, or 200 hrs each time, depending on your engine interval) so you can compare results over time. Trying to do one out of the blue with little data on the oil history is difficult, at best, to draw conclusions from.

My guess in all this is your are going to have to depend on your mechanic to interpret this one for you based on what he is seeing with the drive and how it is operating, and anything he and you can discern from any available maintenance records you have access to on the mechanicals. Hopefully he is going on your sea trial so he can put eyes on the engine/drive and check temps and other operating details for you under way?
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Old 09-16-2019, 10:30 PM   #13
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Velvet Drives tend to be bullet proof and tolerate a lot of abuse. I'd be interested to know exactly which model it is. I've heard various scuttlebut about some and can check my notes for the rumors.

My observation is that high RPM shifts abuse them badly as does running them low on or without fluid. I've known a bunch, including one of mine, that needed rebuilt after being used without fluid or chronically being used low. The root cause of the problem is usually a bad front or rear seal leaking it out faster than the owner can, or does replace it. Other leak are possible.

Bad alignment can also eat one (or things farther back).

I just spent $4200 having a 72C-CR2 rebuilt. It was basically $2500 for the rebuild, plus 1.5 days of mechanic time to dig it out and put it back (it wasnt easy to access) and new fluid, etc.

In my case the tell was vibration at shifting and noise at cruise. I had to be at the lower helm with floor up or in the engine room to notice. But, when I was and focused on it -- it was clearly not of typical health.

But, I had a bad leak, reason to suspect the history, and thought I'd better get it rebuilt before running an increasing risk of trouble docking -- which would be a bummer!

Based upon the report from the rebuilder. It was the right call.

The other side didn't have the (strongly suspected) history of use with a chronic bad leak, shifts and runs smoothly, and runs at all RPMs with a normal report, so I so I think it is fine. Having said that, I like service to be symmetric, so I may do it this spring, anyway, just to have them both new.

So, you'll be able to learn a lot at sea trial if you spend some time focused on it, I think. Especially if you can bring a mechanic, surveyor -- or even boat friend or to be dock neighbor with you who knows how they normally feel and sound (if you don't happen to have that experience). Just do some shifts away from the marina/mileage/anchorage and other boats, but still in calm water, and then go out and run it in forward at different RPMs and in reverse at modestly different RPMs (no need to be crazy in reverse). Look for alignment problems, fluid level, and leaks before, and at temperature with IR thermometer underway, and for leaks again when done. Listen for unusual noises. Feel for unusual vibrations (no need to do it directly, the hull transmits pretty well).

As for the oil analysis and associated interpretation, unless owners cheat them by swapping oil or reduce their utility with fresh oil -- they are usually spot on.
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Old 09-20-2019, 12:46 AM   #14
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Just had the survey done

Ok.....where to begin. First of all, thanks for all the replies. It is obvious that the community on here is a pretty cool one. Seems like everyone really helps out where they can.

As the title states, I just had the survey done today. The boat is 41 years old, so I expected several minor things. There were a couple of issues that popped up.

First issue-
The lazarette holds 2 fresh water tanks. 1 of the tanks shifted because of rotted wood under it. I am unsure if there was currently water in the tank. Also, the stern showed some area of rot around the posts that the swim step was screwed into. It seems to me that the only way to remove the water tank to fix the wood platform it is sitting on and to make sure it isnít leaking is to cut the deck above it to pull the tank out, or cut the stern (because it probably needs to be fixed anyways) and pull the tank out through the hole in the stern.

Second issue-
Again, in the lazarette. Green wire was attached inside to the bolts of the swim step. No zincs on the other side. My surveyor said he didnít believe the boat was bonded. I canít remember if he said the green wire also didnít go to anything (sorry, Iím on information over load right now)

Third issue-
Under way we got these temps with an IR heat gun. (I will include a picture and you guys can try to figure out what I mean).
Water temp gauge 170
Grey p trap looking thing 77
black 90 degree pipe 99
black straight connection 211
red manifold exhaust 156

I also measured the 6 big bolts between the manifold exhaust and the engine block. Starting with the closest to the bow-
177
181
202
184
199
202

While at WOT water temp gauge got to 180 and the black pipes off the manifold exhaust got close to 300 degrees and the surveyor said he saw ďbubblingĒ coming from the valve cover area. It got a little smoky as well.

Ok, so 3 issues is about 6😂. Any thoughts on temps, or are those normal?

Thoughts on bonding or lazarette?

Thanks
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Old 09-20-2019, 02:56 AM   #15
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All of this is really about whether you are up to doing the work, can afford to have it done, and the economics of your purchase...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanna-b View Post

First issue-
The lazarette holds 2 fresh water tanks. 1 of the tanks shifted because of rotted wood under it.

Also, the stern showed some area of rot around the posts that the swim step was screwed into. It seems to me that the only way to remove the water tank to fix the wood platform it is sitting on and to make sure it isnít leaking is to cut the deck above it to pull the tank out, or cut the stern (because it probably needs to be fixed anyways) and pull the tank out through the hole in the stern.

Thoughts on bonding or lazarette?

Thanks
Bonding is a whole issue that I'm not a complete expert on. There are split opinions on not bonding, bonding everything, bonding the running gear only, etc. You should read up, learn more about it, and I'll leave that to some who know more about it that I do. Personally, my boat is very similar, and has its underwater metals bonded and protected by zincs. Its has that done by having most of them bonded with common wiring to a common zinc plate on the transom. My rudders have their own zincs and my shafts have their own.

Regarding the rot in the lazarette and transom. It really depends on what your skills are and what the the situation in the space are. You should first determine what has caused the rot, where the moisture has come from that has caused the rot in the two places, and seek to mitigate that. Then repair it. If the tank was sitting on plywood, that isn't good for it, and it probably needs a better mounting situation anyway - future moisture sitting against the tank can cause corrosion and leaks, if you don't have that already. It may be a matter of removing the tank, or it may be a matter of inserting non-wood supports instead without removing it, without us seeing it would couldn't advise you possible directions.

Regarding the rot in the transom supporting the swim steps - I'm assuming that is some wood/fiberglass structure on the inside of the transom that the swim step supports are through-bolted into. If that is the case, that is a fiberglass/wood core repair. Fairly easy for someone who has worked with those materials, but since its where it is, might have to occur during a haul since its likely slightly below the waterline. This comment is coming from someone who just glassed his own anchor locker since it was never done from the factory, though - take it with a grain of salt. If you've never worked with fiberglass / polyester resin or epoxy then its a bit daunting.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanna-b View Post

Third issue-
Under way we got these temps with an IR heat gun. (I will include a picture and you guys can try to figure out what I mean).
Water temp gauge 170
Grey p trap looking thing 77
black 90 degree pipe 99
black straight connection 211
red manifold exhaust 156

I also measured the 6 big bolts between the manifold exhaust and the engine block. Starting with the closest to the bow-
177
181
202
184
199
202

While at WOT water temp gauge got to 180 and the black pipes off the manifold exhaust got close to 300 degrees and the surveyor said he saw ďbubblingĒ coming from the valve cover area. It got a little smoky as well.

Ok, so 3 issues is about 6😂. Any thoughts on temps, or are those normal?

Thanks
So, I think you are intent on buying a diesel trawler. Look for some books on engines and boat maintenance. There are some great threads here that list some, it will help give you some base knowledge and terminology. Below I reposted your pic of the exhaust end of the engine with some colored arrows to clarify your temps and descriptions.

Your exhaust is a Chrysler marine lower and upper swivel exhaust that is mounted to the Leman exhaust manifold with a custom made adapter. I have not found the adapters are commercially available anywhere. When I first bought my boat, I thought mine was cobbled together, but I've since found a historical Lehman sales brochure showing that exhaust, so they must have used or offered it as at least an option at some point. Here is a link to a page showing one possible parts source for the Chrysler exhaust parts that puts proper names to them. Marineparts.com - Barr Manifolds Risers Chrysler V8 - 361,383,400,413,426 and 440 C.I.D 1959 and Up Log Style

The parts you called out, and what I THINK you are referring to as follows:

Green Arrow - Grey P Trap - Exhaust Riser Upper Elbow: 77 degrees is an appropriate temp. This piece has an outer water jacket that has seawater circulating through it from both the lower elbow (there is an o-ring sealed joint between the two) and from the red hose. It has the largest volume of your raw water and should be the coolest, and is showering the exhaust right before it hits the exhaust hose (purple arrow.) The exhaust hose shouldn't be much more than 80 degrees, either.

Blue Arrow - Black 90 Degree Pipe - Exhaust Riser Lower Elbow: I'm not sure on this temp. I don't recall what our temps were, and we changed ours out. I can tell you this, this piece gets less cooling water in it, because it has a smaller inlet, and its is closer to the exhaust heat, so I'm not surprised it is hotter. 99 deg does not seem alarming to me. It appears this boat has both halves of the riser plumbed which is proper. Mine was not.

Red Arrow - Black straight connection - Lehman to Chrysler Adapter: I think this temp is what it is. This piece is one of two reasons Brian Smith at American Diesel does not recommend this type of exhaust on the Ford Lehman today. That adapter is not able to be cooled, and the way the Lehman exhaust manifold is manufactured, the flange of that adapter (with a gasket) is sitting against the closed cooling system and could potentially boil the coolant. My boat had lived with it likely its entire life until this past fall though. As a new owner I chose to change it, it wasn't a deal changer or a negotiation point for me.

Yellow Arrow - black pipes off the manifold exhaust - is this what you are talking about being 300 degrees? I've never put the thermometer on this spot before. I always check my manifolds, my alternators, transmisssions, exhaust hoses, raw water hoses, and my water lift mufflers looking for consistent temps (engine to engine and from check to check.) Its not a spot I've ever looked at for temp though.

Regarding the temps of the exhaust manifold, its main bolts, and the engine temp gauge - the Lehman owners manual specifies operating temps from 175 to 195 degrees with 195 being optimum. That is the indicated temp of the water at the sensing location, so seeing some variance is expected. Assuming the 300 degree reading is not some kind of anomaly I'm missing I'm not seeing anything crazy here, assuming this was WOT for more than 2-3 minutes.

Regarding the bubbling valve cover, the question for the surveyor is what was the bubbling? was it built up oil heating up, or blow by coming out past a loosely fitting valve cover gasket, or? Its not surprising to me the boat started to smoke a little as much as its been sitting; especially if they put some paint on that adapter piece of the exhaust.


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How did the transmission come out as far as your concerns with the oil analysis? How did she shift and handle?

Wishing you the best as you decide if this is the boat for you!
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Old 09-20-2019, 10:43 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanna-b View Post
Ok.....where to begin. First of all, thanks for all the replies. It is obvious that the community on here is a pretty cool one. Seems like everyone really helps out where they can.

As the title states, I just had the survey done today. The boat is 41 years old, so I expected several minor things. There were a couple of issues that popped up.

First issue-
The lazarette holds 2 fresh water tanks. 1 of the tanks shifted because of rotted wood under it. I am unsure if there was currently water in the tank. Also, the stern showed some area of rot around the posts that the swim step was screwed into. It seems to me that the only way to remove the water tank to fix the wood platform it is sitting on and to make sure it isn’t leaking is to cut the deck above it to pull the tank out, or cut the stern (because it probably needs to be fixed anyways) and pull the tank out through the hole in the stern.

Thoughts onr lazarette?

Thanks
Most of those boats have a lazarette hatch that sits in a moulded tray of drains. Those are going to fill with dirt and then the rainwater will stay around for the winter and keep everything in the vicinity nice and wet. I know from my own. All that water will get into the lazarette and any wood below will be susceptible to rot, so look for it all around once you can empty out the lazarette. Your tanks should come out the hatch, as it is unlikely they were put in before the deck was laid. You will be able to get at all of the supporting timbers.

As for the swimgrid supports, you should find that your transom is airex cored. Those supports should be attached to the transom with fender washers on the inside and no wood in the neighbourhood. If yours have wood, some PO has had them off and thought they were improving on the original. When I had mine off I found the bolts mostly corroded away, so a PO having the swimgrid off in less than 41 years is to be expected.

(Aside) If you are removing the swimgrid anyway, get new, larger supports and get your swimgrid extended to a useful depth. The original on those boats was 18" or so. I extended mine to 30" or so and have found that mod to be the best thing that I have ever changed on my boat. I too carry my dinghy above the swimgrid, a 750# Caribe 12 with a 40 Honda, and though the deeper swimgrid is beow the dinghy, hoisting and deploying the dinghy is not an issue. Your new, bigger supports need not have any transom penetrations below the waterline, as that part of the support will be pressing on the transom, while the upper part will have bolts through the transom that are in tension. The holes left from removing the old supports can be filled with the old bolts in 5200.
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Old 09-20-2019, 11:11 AM   #17
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Oil Analysis:
Velvet drive clutch contains a pack of alternating steel and bronze plates. They are wear items and need periodic replacement. High levels of iron and copper in the oil would not necessarily indicate the clutch discs need replacement. Could be normal wear and the owner simply didn't change the oil frequently (or at all). A slipping transmission would be cause for a rebuild. Typical costs would be $750-1000 if you remove the transmission. But as gkesden mentioned, a complete rebuild can exceed $2500.

If you disconnect the drive shaft and rotate the transmission you should be able to feel any grinding or vibration. Shouldn't be very smooth. If not, bearings may need replacement. You can also remove the control valve as a quick indicator on internal state. If it's corroded and pitted, then the rest of the transmission is likely the same.
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Old 09-20-2019, 11:52 AM   #18
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-Engine temps seem normal. You will have to find some consistent spots to measure. I aim for a spot just below the injectors.
-As Keith mentioned, Lazarette drains plug up, so damp lazarette is not uncommon. Just cut the old tank out, install new smaller ones. Get a quote.
-Bubbling around valve cover is a lehman feature. Needs a new gasket.
-If no corrosion or pitting on anything underwater then no problems. Shaft zincs must be providing adequate protection.
-I would be a little concerned about the transom swim platform support brackets. If it's a wood core then repair may not be a trivial matter. Only way to find extent of rot is to drill a bunch of small holes from inside lazarette and poke around with right angle pick. Get a quote.
-No showstoppers but note that transom repairs can get a bit pricey.
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Old 09-20-2019, 03:01 PM   #19
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City: Seattle
Country: USA
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 21
Fractal- Yep, that red arrow (Chrysler to Lehman connection) was the hottest point. The transmission felt great. I had a mechanic change the fluid before the sea trial.

KOliver- Thanks for the info on the lazarette. I like the idea of a larger swim platform and keeping holes above the water line

SoWhat- Great info on the tranny and possible red flags with the transom repair.

Thanks again guys, I am waiting for a call back to get quotes. I will let you know what I ultimately decide....but if I buy it I will be hounding you guys for lots of info. Haha
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Old 09-20-2019, 03:04 PM   #20
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City: Desoto
Country: USA
Vessel Name: GOTCHA
Vessel Model: 1973 Alaskan 59-B PH
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 196
It sounds as if you have made up your mind on this boat.

There are some things that jump right out at me.
Miss-matched parts.
Oil not changed in five years.
Oil leaking into bilge.
Critical parts loose or not mounted.
Tanks loose.
Oil reports with red flags.

This is just the short list of problems. It looks to me like the owner didn't care, and is now trying to dump the boat. As you didn't talk about any service logs. I would assume their is not any, or none has been done.


I would not walk away, I WOULD RUN!


You are always better off to spend the money up front on a good boat, as to buy a money pit that will bury you in repairs.
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