Maneuvering a Single in Reverse

[jefndeb]

Hello,

Our mainship 40 single has shown that it really doesn't want to maneuver all that well while reversing. I understand that reversing is a very different animal as far as physics is concerned, no water being forced over the rudder, size of the rudder and the fact that the stern is basically square and naturally doesn't help as a bow does.

I was just wondering if my idea of backing is close..

We have bow and stern thrusters so was wondering if setting up for a reversing turn to port might be like this..

With boat pretty much stopped, turn the rudder to port about 3/4, set motor into reverse idle, bump stern thruster to port, bump bow thruster to starboard and then bump throttle a little to try to get some water flowing over the rudder.

Wind and tide considered of course.

Does this sound close?

My rudder is really small which surely doesn't help.....

Thanks for your comments...

 

[LovetoBoat]

My 2 cents - stop using your thrusters. If you want to back into a slip - try this.


Pull the boat up to the slip before the one you want to back in. I turn my boat to the starboard side and try to line it up. With the boat rudder straight back - put it in reverse at idle speed for 1 or 2 seconds and put it in neutral. Allow the boat to show you how it is positioned - if you need to kick the stern to the port side to miss a pylon or a finger dock. Turn the wheel 3/4 to the starboard and put in idle forward gear for 1 or 2 seconds - take it out of gear. Turn the wheel back to neutral and put it in reverse at idle. Allow the boat to show you where it is positioned - can you continue to back in or do you need to kick the stern? I go back and forth until the stern is lined up for the slip. Some times 2 or 3 times - sometimes 8 or 9 depending on current or wind. If you get frustrated - pull the boat back out and attempt again.


Do not use the thrusters - this method will help you in the long run in my opinion...

 

[danderer]

I had a Mainship 34T which is about 2' smaller than the 40. She was completely unpredictable backing. On every other single I've had there was predictable prop walk to work with but not that boat. Don't know if the 40 behaves similarly.

In any case, when going astern, I would forget about the rudder. Just leave it centered. The rudder is so small you won't be able to generate any meaningful movement with it when going astern. Not touching the rudder also makes maneuvering easier - one less thing to worry about/frantically manipulate.

 

[ranger58sb]

I agree with the idea of bagging the thrusters for a while.

Jef, let's imagine a right-hand prop, The boat will move -- on gears alone -- in a "close parenthesis" motion: center the rudder; bump into forward gear, bow goes to port, stern shoves to starboard; bump into reverse gear, stern pulls to port, bow moves to starboard.

Let's imagine you have a 4-way slip on your port side of the marina fairway. Enter the fairway slightly to left of center, and stop with your midships approx straight out from the slip. Then do a 432-point turn using only slight bumps of forward and reverse, probably more reverses than forwards.

Something like that. Modify accordingly for circumstances you can see and I can only imagine.

After you can do it with gears alone, then maybe add bow thrust from time to time. After you can do it that way, add stern thrust when you're ready.

The rudder may become useful if you have a long distance to go astern and can get up enough way to make it work. Our Mainship 34 would back pretty well over long distances... once I got up enough way and could work out how to steer at whatever I was aiming at. Short distances, like backing into a 4-way, not so much.

-Chris

 

[jefndeb]

Can you explain what a 432 point turn is?

 

[mvweebles]

I don't understand. The boat has thrusters. Why not use them? A 40-footer with a small rudder and no keel is a Dixie-cup on water. Backing-down is tough. Why install thrusters if you don't use them?

Peter

 

[jefndeb]

I do use the thrusters, I was just asking about maneuvering without totally dependent on them....I've seen them draw 500+ amps.....probably not all that good for the deep cycle battery bank mainship tied them to.

 

[Jc180]

With all due respect, previous commentary way too complicated. All depends on wind and current, of course. We have found best to position rudder amidships and steer with the thrusters in reverse. Works for our motorsailer and our trawler. Good luck!

 

[ghost]

The answer is, it depends. Also, I don’t know your boat.

That said, the tool I did not see mentioned is to turn your rudder to stbd, then start backing. When you need to immediately kick the stern to port, grab a momentary fwd gear, which before the backward momentum is fully erased will be very effective in throwing the stern to port.

The rudder will typically not add significant effect in reverse, at least until you have some way on. What you need is quick effective corrections, and this does the trick.

Use every tool you have, this is just one of them, but a pretty primary tool for the typical single screw boats.

 

[Jc180]

I do use the thrusters, I was just asking about maneuvering without totally dependent on them....I've seen them draw 500+ amps.....probably not all that good for the deep cycle battery bank mainship tied them to.

Thrusters are intermittent duty machines. That is can’t tolerate long duration (generally only need several seconds). Don’t worry about battery consumption.

 

[Comodave]

Thrusters should be hooked to start type batteries since they are more like starting an engine, high draw short interval.

Does the boat back to one side reliably or is it all over the map as some said above. If it is predictable then use that to your benefit. Learn what it likes to do and then do that. Don’t try to make it do things it just can’t do. And there isn’t anything wrong with using the thrusters.

 

[GingerMd]

Like the comments above, a starboard prop walk combined with forward power with the helm to port can get the boat to rotate using short bursts. Another approach that has been successful with my boat to to get some reverse momentum and use the bow thruster like a rudder. Doesn’t seem intuitive, but works pretty well, with the boat tracking on the keel. Though I would say for boats with less of a keel it might not be as effective.

 

[Jc180]

Should have mentioned, unless wind or current setting you, reverse into slip is a very slow and deliberate manuever.

 

[BruceK]

The reason it has thrusters is probably because the owner couldn`t steer it adequately without. Lots of Clipper 40(same constructor as NP) singles here start life with a bow thruster and quickly acquire a stern one. The Clipper 40 on my marina uses the prop for power and the thrusters for steering when reverse docking.
So glad I have twins and a rarely used bowthruster. If you can achieve good reverse docking steering and control without using them, much or at all, you will have a valuable skill.

 

[Ski in NC]

I run a single with RH prop (like yours) and just a bow thruster. In reverse, it favors port. You can compensate for that if you want to tie up to stbd by putting rudder to near full port and alternating between fwd and rev. In fwd give it a snort of throttle to add to the rudder authority.

I have to back out of my basin about 300yds before I have enough room to turn around. I center the rudder and use bow thruster to steer. Works very well. And I had to run the boat a few years before I put the bow thruster in, so learned how to do it without (a bit dirty, though).

Play with it in open water, you will learn. Can do almost (!!) anything with a single screw and rudder, no thrusters. But you will also learn that there are some things to not try.

 

[SILENTKNIGHT]

Agreed ! use the thrusters . I get her in with a quick few burst , even with high winds 12-15 knts.. She responds well with thrusters and tells you where she wants to go .

 

[rslifkin]

Use the thrusters as needed, but for the basics, unless you're backing up very quickly, the rudder won't do much of anything in reverse. So leave it straight and see where the boat goes in reverse. When you need a correction, apply rudder and a burst of forward thrust (idle will usually be enough). That'll turn the boat and move the stern over, then you can continue in reverse.

Thrusters will produce a somewhat different turning motion, so practice with every tool you've got and figure out what works best in various situations.

 

[Arc]

Thrusters work best when there is no forward/ backward movement. They stopping, then adjust with thruster . You will have far less thruster on time

 

[markpierce]

I don't understand. The boat has thrusters. Why not use them? A 40-footer with a small rudder and no keel is a Dixie-cup on water. Backing-down is tough. Why install thrusters if you don't use them?

Peter

I agree. ... Two-engine craft use both propellers to maneuver. Do those criticizing thrusters usually use only one drive train? No. So, why should thrust-equipped not use the boat's capabilities?

PS: Prefer a "barn door" sized rudder.

 

[ranger58sb]

Can you explain what a 432 point turn is?

Just like a 3-point turn in a car... magnified by a whole bunch more back and forth.

-Chris

 

[ranger58sb]

I don't understand. The boat has thrusters. Why not use them? A 40-footer with a small rudder and no keel is a Dixie-cup on water. Backing-down is tough. Why install thrusters if you don't use them?

Peter

Nothing at all bad about using thrusters... until the time they don't work. I like our bow thruster.

I just think better to learn how to maneuver without, to the extent possible, to be prepared for that day... which might never come.

-Chris

 

[mvweebles]

Nothing at all bad about using thrusters... until the time they don't work. I like our bow thruster.



I just think better to learn how to maneuver without, to the extent possible, to be prepared for that day... which might never come.



-Chris

I don't disagree. Good seamanship skills mean ability to adapt to changing conditions. Take time and layered skills. Docking is such an example, especially backing a single into a slip.

I doubt there is a thruster-equipped boat owner alive who doesn't practice no-thruster docking in anticipation of the day there isn't a thruster.

Whenever topic of thrusters comes up, there is always a aimilar chorus. Question. When topics about docking twins comes up, no one ever says "practice on one engine. You never know when you're gonna lose an engine?"

 

[jleonard]

Get a Chapman's book and do exactly what it shows in the illustrations for single engine handling.
Exactly.
No one can explain it more simply and distinctly.

 

[Gdavid]

There are lots of good tips and advice here, at the risk of contributing to the overwhelming guidance, I'd like to add my two cents:

Focus on getting one corner of your transom started into the slip, it really doesn't matter which one, use whichever you have better visibility of. Keeping your eyes focused on one area will make it easier to judge the movement of your boat to the dock rather than looking back and forth in multiple locations. Once you have this accomplished you can square the boat up in the slip using your bow thruster or a spring line and then work the boat aft into the slip at your own pace. With time and practice you can get pretty good at where to position the boat relative to the slip so that wind and tide will square you up as you are ready to ease the rest of the way back into the slip, but for now, keep things simple and just work on getting one corner started and use the tools at your disposal to lower your stress levels, especially in tight quarters.

When you are lining up to back into the slip, intentionally favor one side and have your rudder pre-positioned towards the same side, this way if you are getting too close to the fixed object (piling, pier, etc), you only need to shift into forward and the stern will move away from your obstacle. In other words, don't try to get lined up perfectly to back in all in one smooth shot, set yourself up so that you are going to back into something and this way you are only having to correct in one direction.

 

[gholmesbm]

"I doubt there is a thruster-equipped boat owner alive who doesn't practice no-thruster docking in anticipation of the day there isn't a thruster. "

I am sure there are many, and I have observed in marinas some of them struggling when they dont have all their kit working. Some people just assume it is all foolproof. Poor judgement and laziness is all around us.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. j. As others have alluded to, get to know your boat and practice, practice, practice. Wind, tides, currents and boat trim differ with almost every maneuver. We went from twins to a single and back to twins (also have a single "up north") and now planning on going back to a single WITH a thruster.

 

[ranger58sb]

Question. When topics about docking twins comes up, no one ever says "practice on one engine. You never know when you're gonna lose an engine?"

I do. Ever since I once had to return to our home dock on one engine.

Face dock, usually not so bad but... bow in usually do-able... but...

Closest I've been able to come to entering stern-to a 4-way on the port side is with the starboard engine running.. or entering stern-to a 4-way on the starboard side with the port engine running. Because of the particulars of our specific prop walk(s)... but I've not been able to do it the other way.

Still learning...

-Chris

 

[Choices]

No one is mentioning the wear and tear on the tranny.

There are only so many shifts in a tranny. Some less than others.

There is much less wear and tear on a thruster than a tranny.

Know how to get it in a slip just in case, and use the thruster.

Most marine tranny guys will tell you thrusters save the tranny, by decades.

 

[Bmarler]

i've been a single screw guy all my life. i usually don't move the rudder too much when rotating the boat into position. i'll point the rudder the direction i want the boat to rotate, give a couple of seconds of fwd to start it moving, then some reverse to get it to start reverse momentum. back to fwd to continue rotating, back to reverse... all the while leaving the rudder position alone. left hand props want to back to starboard, right hand to port, so set yourself up for that. it can be nearly impossible to go against the prop walk on some boats.
but as others have said, use the thrusters to save the tranny. no shame in it. but do practice without thrusters so you have the skill when you need it.
i have thrusters now and really like having them. i find i use the stern thruster the most, to emulate how i'd set the rudder.

 

[LovetoBoat]

There are only so many shifts in a tranny. Some less than others.
...
Most marine tranny guys will tell you thrusters save the tranny, by decades.

Does this make any sense - are you grinding gears? Sure maybe.


What about lobster boats? You think they need to replace their transmissions every couple years? Go to a pot and put it in neutral all day long... Not sure where this gem came from...