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Old 03-31-2010, 06:48 PM   #21
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RE: Lubricity Study

According to my business suppliers for both equipment and diesel fuel, lubricity in today's commercial diesel fuel is not an issue. This applies to 50 year old and new engines -*Cat branded.*California nutcase CARB declarations notwithstanding.

BTW, the lubricity "study" that started*this chain seems at odds with the type of "professional" fuel info I routinely see from Chevron. It seems statement rich, fact* short and biased towards what additive is the best/worst rather than "Is one necessary at all?" FYI, the refiners use additives to keep thier fuels within "spec." And what additives does the VW diesel owner use who makes points and press by burning french fry grease?
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Old 03-31-2010, 07:29 PM   #22
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RE: Lubricity Study

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You mean the old mechanical engines with larger clearances than modern close tolerance, high speed, heavily loaded pumps and fuel injectors that make those in the Lehman look like something built in China in the 60s?

I can only go on what we have been told by people in the engine industry.* According to them, the nature of the Lehman 120's jerk-injection Simms/CAV injection pump makes fuel lubricity extremely critical.* There are no seals on the plungers--- the injection pressure is created by the fit of the plungers in their bores.* I don't know how the tolerances compare to newer engines, but whatever the injection pressure is in an FL120, it is all created by*the*fit of*each plunger in its bore.

The only thing that lubricates the plungers is the fuel.* The lube oil in the sump of a Simms/CAV injection pump is there only to lubricate the pump's drive mechanism.

If the fuel does not have the required lubricity the plungers and bore walls wear abnormally fast.* This not only accellerates the rate of fuel dilution of the lube oil down below but it will eventually start to reduce the injection pressure at which point the pump has to be rebuilt.* Given that the pump is the single most expensive item on an FL120 and is very costly to overhaul, the advice has been from everyone I've talked to to use a lubricity additive in today's diesel fuel to ensure that the wear rate*of the plungers and the bore walls is kept as low as possible.

That's what we've been told and we have followed the advice of the people that have told us this.* How this relates to newer engines I have no idea.*

I'm not saying that*what you say is wrong.* But not being a diesel design engineer, or*the owner of*a shop that tears down and overhauls things like FL120*injection pumps,*I can only*go on the advice of people who are these things.

*
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Old 03-31-2010, 08:12 PM   #23
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Lubricity Study

Quote:
Marin wrote:
There are no seals on the plungers--- the injection pressure is created by the fit of the plungers in their bores.* I don't know how the tolerances compare to newer engines, but whatever the injection pressure is in an FL120, it is all created by*the*fit of*each plunger in its bore.

The only thing that lubricates the plungers is the fuel.
And that is exactly the way every diesel engine high pressure pump works. Even on the largest engines there is no seal, it is a lapped fit. The same applies for mechanical injectors.

There is simply nothing exceptional about the Lehman or any other small high speed diesel engine. None of them require a fuel additive for any reason. It is much more likely that the fuel system will be damaged by water and other contaminants in small boats than from the "poor lubricity" bogeyman.

If nothing else, those old industrial engines (Lehmans and its ilk) are far less demanding and far less prone to wear than modern highly loaded injection systems that use plungers ground and fitted to light wave tolerances.

It wasn't but a few years ago that diesels in small privately owned boats were the exception and they were surrounded by a highly cultivated mystique intended to enhance the status of their owners and the bank accounts of those who maintained them. Not much has changed except the "gurus" are now grinding the ULSD rumor mill.

This stuff is right up there with the fear mongering that surrounded "oversquare" operation that had the hangar flying crowd so freaked out a few years ago.

*


-- Edited by RickB on Wednesday 31st of March 2010 08:18:22 PM
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Old 04-01-2010, 04:41 AM   #24
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RE: Lubricity Study

"None of them require a fuel additive for any reason."

All modern diesels require an additive , its just the local distributor is "supposed" to blend it into the fuel.

Insurance if someone doesn't would make sense.

Penny wise or Pound foolish? Depends on who pays for the replacement items.
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Old 04-01-2010, 05:06 AM   #25
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RE: Lubricity Study

While they may not "require" additives, why would you not use them if they help prevent wear on your fuel systems? I may change what I use based on this article, but I'm still using them. As long as you use them per manufacturer's specs, they can't hurt and sure can help. There are lots of references and test results out on the web that show this. Check out Chevron's Oronite line of diesel fuel additives. I'd say they know what they're talking about.
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Old 04-01-2010, 06:08 AM   #26
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RE: Lubricity Study

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FF wrote:

Penny wise or Pound foolish? Depends on who pays for the replacement items.
Fuel meets the lubricity standard when it leaves the refinery. Period. That standard was developed by a consensus of engine manufacturers, the people who design, manufacture, and warranty the engines that would suffer from lack of lubricity.

There is no manufacturer that requires the user to blend an aftermarket fuel additive to maintain the warranty of their products. Most warn against the practice and state very clearly that the warranty is void if damage is found to be the result of using fuel that does not meet their specifications, which is universally the ASTM fuel standard as delivered from the refinery.

There is a huge body of literature available online regarding the use of additives. Most are published by those who sell the stuff.

There is practically nothing published about pump and injector failures due to low lubricity since the institution of ASTM D-975 after the ULSD low lubricity phenomenon was identified.

Please feel free to link to documented cases of diesel failure due to the use of fuel that has not been sanctified with aftermarket lubricity additives.

Like I wrote earlier, our yachts burn millions of gallons of fuel annually. Several of them make the crossing between the Caribbean and the Med on their own bottoms twice a year, some are on multi-year circumnavigations. We have an intense interest in the health of the main and auxiliary engines on those boats - of all sizes from 6m tenders to 80m megayachts. We are also interested in not wasting the owner's money on mythology or unnecessary maintenance and* materials.

There is no mystery about marine fuel, its handling or its use. You don't need to take my word for it, go talk to the technical superintendent or port engineer for your local tugboat fleet operation and ask what they do. Stop by Northern Lights in Seattle and ask what lubricity additive they require to keep their warranty in effect.

There is a huge amount of mysterious bulls**t surrounding the same engines and fuels when they are used on a 15 or 20m trawler yacht.
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Old 04-01-2010, 07:38 AM   #27
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RE: Lubricity Study

Quote:
Keith wrote:While they may not "require" additives, why would you not use them if they help prevent wear on your fuel systems?

Check out Chevron's Oronite line of diesel fuel additives.
Who, other than*those who sell the stuff, says that aftermarket lubricity enhancers reduce wear or provide any benefit to the user?

Why experiment with the fuel chemistry around which the engine was designed, tested, certificated, and warrantied*to operate as its manufacturer intended and the end user based his purchase decision.

Chevron has a long history of marketing its fuels by promoting "enhancements" that other refiners don't offer. It is pure consumer marketing strategy.*Chevron's marketing department*knows very well that many consumers are convinced that adding mouse milk to gasoline, lube oil, diesel fuel, and gin*improves their lifestyle*and they are not above cashing in on our insecurities.

Ask Chevron if their diesel fuel requires*aftermarket*additives to meet engine manufacturers fuel standards in order to maintain warranty and achieve design life.
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Old 04-01-2010, 08:45 AM   #28
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RE: Lubricity Study

Hiya,
** You meen Nitrogen WON'T help my fliver?
****** http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10185640-48.html
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Old 04-01-2010, 09:32 AM   #29
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RE: Lubricity Study

Pure and simple, Chevron clearly states to its big buyers ( I am one in my business world) its diesel fuel does not require aftermarket additives. rickB is correct (IMHO, on all counts on this issue), the additives business is exactly that, business. If Chevron doesn't sell the additive*to us that we want, Walmart or West Marine will.

Now if your tank is full of old water laden green slime fuel, forget this discussion. Just throw that fuel*away and start over.
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Old 04-01-2010, 09:51 AM   #30
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Lubricity Study

Rickbee will just never be happy until the entire world agrees with him.
http://www.chevron.com/products/oron...additives.html

-- Edited by Keith on Thursday 1st of April 2010 09:53:05 AM
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Old 04-01-2010, 11:42 AM   #31
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RE: Lubricity Study

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Keith wrote:
Rickbee will just never be happy until the entire world agrees with him.

It's got nothing to do with me, I don't know why my stating simple facts about this stuff seems to disturb you so much. I could care less how you waste your money or what you put in your engine. It's your money and your engine, have fun with them.

Repeating a link to Chevron's marketing folks doesn't tell anyone anything other than Chevron is on the additives bandwagon because gullible people want to spend money. If you had posted Chevron engineering's response to the question I suggested earlier then you might be able to contribute something to the discussion.

"Ask Chevron if their diesel fuel requires*aftermarket*additives to meet engine manufacturers fuel standards in order to maintain warranty and achieve design life."

That is a very simple question and it will elicit a very simple response. You use Chevron as the example of truth and light, ask them then post their response. That way you won't be offended since the information won't come from me.
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Old 04-01-2010, 11:49 AM   #32
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RE: Lubricity Study

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RickB wrote:Stop by Northern Lights in Seattle and ask what lubricity additive they require to keep their warranty in effect.
The head of their engineering department is a friend (he helped us determine if the boat we bought was a good one to buy) and he's one of the people who strongly recommended that we use a lubricity additive in our FL120s for the reasons I stated.
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Old 04-01-2010, 12:08 PM   #33
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RE: Lubricity Study

Keith, I am thinking that Oronite stuff is something that is added by the refiner or the distributor....not at the retail consumer level. I may be wrong.
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Old 04-01-2010, 12:43 PM   #34
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RE: Lubricity Study

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RickB wrote:Stop by Northern Lights in Seattle and ask what lubricity additive they require to keep their warranty in effect.
The head of their engineering department is a friend (he helped us determine if the boat we bought was a good one to buy) and he's one of the people who strongly recommended that we use a lubricity additive in our FL120s for the reasons I stated.

So, what you are saying is this friend of yours who works at NL recommended you use mouse milk in your Lehman. Fair enough, he is entitled to his opinion regardless of his lack of*supporting data.*After all, the world's most highly regarded Lehamn guru recommends using an*additive that has been shown to reduce lubricity.

What additive does NL require*customers use to maintain their warranty?

*
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Old 04-01-2010, 12:47 PM   #35
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RE: Lubricity Study

Oronite (a Chevron company or division name, not a product name) seems to be in the business of making chemical components that are then sold to additive manufacturers. Here are a couple of blurbs from their website.

"Oronite manufactures and markets a number of chemical intermediates and components for use in the manufacture of additives and chemicals. We are a major producer and marketer of propylene tetramer, highly reactive polybutene, PIBSA, alkylates, specialty chemicals, sulfonic acids and specialty chemicals. Our chemical components include detergents, dispersants, and inhibitors. These materials are produced at our major manufacturing facilities in Richmond, California; New Orleans, Louisiana; Gonfreville, France; and Singapore, and distributed throughout the world."

"We use a global approach towards fuel additive development, with extensive in-house research capabilities, including engine lab and test fleets in California, the Netherlands, and Japan."
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Old 04-01-2010, 12:59 PM   #36
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Lubricity Study

Quote:
Baker wrote:Keith, I am thinking that Oronite stuff is something ...
Regardless of what it is, Chevron does not claim*Oronite is a lubricity enhancer and that is what this*thread is about.

CAUTION FF: THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT CONTAINS INFORMATION AND PRACTICES THAT APPLY TO LARGE SHIP*OPERATIONS, TO AVOID BEING OFFENDED DO NOT READ*BEYOND THIS POINT!

*There are many additives designed to modify marine fuels for specific purposes.*A common one is*added to prevent the precipitation of vanadium in the exhaust path*and is added*while loading*fuels that test high for vanadium.

There are additives that reduce cloud point or improve cetane ratings. None of these additives claim to improve lubricity because fuels meet that standard as delivered and DIY fuel blending is pointless, expensive,*and could be risky.*


-- Edited by RickB on Thursday 1st of April 2010 01:00:31 PM
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Old 04-01-2010, 01:17 PM   #37
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RE: Lubricity Study

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So, what you are saying is this friend of yours who works at NL recommended you use mouse milk in your Lehman. Fair enough, he is entitled to his opinion regardless of his lack of*supporting data.

What additive does NL require*customers use to maintain their warranty?

*
Actually, his advice was based on teardown results on injection pumps of older engines like ours that had been run with and without lubricity additives.* However, this was twelve years ago when we were discussing this--- I don't remember any of the specifics he told me in terms of wear amount differences.*

While I agree it's just one man's opinion, albeit based on over 30 years of experience with marine propulsion and generator diesels, the fact that his opinion has been echoed by other people I've come to know who, among other things, overhaul the injection pumps of the type used on our FL120s, I can see the logic in the use of a credible lubricity additive in light of the changing nature of today's fuels.

While the fuel manufacturers and engine manufacturers obviously work closely together to ensure that today's engines and fuels are compatible, there comes a point when old technologies are no longer cost-effective to try to support anymore.* For example, the removal of lead from gasoline has resulted in problems for old engines that depended on the lead to cushion the valves in their seats.* My 1973 Land Rover has eroding valve seats today as a result of this and I know a number of people with old or classic vehicles that are in the same situation.* A number of years ago I purchased an "unleaded head" for my Land Rover that I may someday get around to installing.

So I think the notion that the fuel manufacturers are still ensuring that their fuels provide all the necessary qualities required of old technology engines is perhaps not so accurate.* The pressures they are under to meet an ever-changing set of environmental requirements make it very easy to write off the requirements of engines that, by today's standards, are Smithsonian exhibits and that would make the fuel companies' lives even more difficult if they tried to continue to meet all the old requirements along with the new.

I have no idea what the warranty requirements are for NL propulsion and generator engines since we don't have either one.

*
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Old 04-01-2010, 01:21 PM   #38
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RE: Lubricity Study

Here is another quote from the Oronite website. Note the last item in the list....

Diesel
Ignition characteristics affect all performance aspects of the diesel engine, including emissions, power output, fuel economy, and engine durability. Minimizing injector nozzle fouling enables high quality injection and good fuel ignition.
Oronite diesel additives (ODAsŪ) use a dispersant/detergent technology to reduce injector nozzle fouling. ODAs may also include additional components for:
Anti-foam
Water tolerance
Anti-corrosion
Oxidation stability
Cetane improvement
Low temperature operability
Lubricity
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Old 04-01-2010, 01:45 PM   #39
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RE: Lubricity Study

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Marin wrote:

Actually, his advice was based on teardown results on injection pumps of older engines like ours that had been run with and without lubricity additives.* However, this was twelve years ago ...

While the fuel manufacturers and engine manufacturers obviously work closely together to ensure that today's engines and fuels are compatible, there comes a point when old technologies are no longer cost-effective to try to support anymore.*

So I think the notion that the fuel manufacturers are still ensuring that their fuels provide all the necessary qualities required of old technology engines is perhaps not so accurate.*

I have no idea what the warranty requirements are for NL propulsion and generator engines since we don't have either one.

He told you what he saw 12 years ago when the problems associated with*low sulfur diesel*were not fully understood? He told you what he saw before the engine manufacturers and refiners developed new lubricity tests and standards.*And*how relevant is this today?

Correct, the old technologies are no longer applicable.*That is precisely why there are now tests and standards to ensure diesel fuel meets the lubricity requirements of old and new engines. New engines are far more demanding than old*clunker industrial diesels so the new stuff is*far better than your Lehman requires. It is good enough for an MTU that is built like a Rolex so*why insist it is not good enough for a Lehman?

The fuel manufacturers now have standardized*lab tests and equipment to ensure that their product exceeds the*strictest*requirements. They never had this kind of quality control in the past. Given the lifespan of diesel engines, the refiners have not abandoned those units installed before 1998.

Gee, if you were talking to your friend who is the head of engineering at NL you could have asked him ... or are you just regurgitating 12 year old hearsay and subjective*appraisal?*

All I am asking anyone to do is go to the source. Ask your engine manufacturer if it requires the use of any aftermarket fuel additive to maintain the warranty or obtain performance specifications. Why not eliminate the snake oil salesmen and people like me who tap away at the keyboard supplying opinions that may only be worth what you paid for them?



*
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Old 04-01-2010, 01:48 PM   #40
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RE: Lubricity Study

Quote:
Marin wrote:Here is another quote from the Oronite website. Note the last item in the list....

Lubricity
They don't list lubricity on the page Baker linked. If they show it somewhere else it must be for the aftermarket mouse milk trade.
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