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Old 09-09-2019, 11:57 AM   #21
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Hey Ken,

Thanks for making me feel better!

Good thing there is only one of those per boat, eh?

-Greg
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Old 09-09-2019, 12:16 PM   #22
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It really concerns me that you feel it is too hot in the bilge to even check the tranny fluid. Sure it gets warm down there after a few hours run but it should never get "intolerable".Makes me suspect the heat exchangers on the engines and transmissions. Did the engine temp stay under 180 degrees during your run ?

One old mechanic told me you can run a boat without a transmission cooler in an emergency. Run a loop of hose in your bilge and let a few gallons of water slosh around it. Wouldn't recommend it but the ambient temp in the bilge really shouldn't get much over the lake or sea water temp.

I suspect a bad oil cooler on the transmission, like the others. A replacement should be easy to find, They are not really boat/transmission/engine specific.

Good Luck

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Old 09-09-2019, 12:26 PM   #23
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Hey Pete,

I can't claim I like going down into the engine room after it has been running for a couple or few hours. I don't have a thermometer in my current one, but my Californian used to sit at about 110 F.

In the case of the Californian, when I'd do my underway checks or my check as we pulled into dock/moorings, I'd go in via the door under the stairs going forward. Going in this way didn't disturb any of the "crew". Unfortunately, it also didn't let a huge amount of hot air out the top or have me only partially in it.

In my new boat I end up pulling the floor by the galley. Due to the engine room and fuel tank arrangement, there is less room to crawl around the engines, so working from the top is easier. The bad news is the floor is open while I'm down there and someone not paying attention can fall in. The good news it as soon as I do that hot air rises into the galley and cold air sinks down, and I am never totally wrapped in it.

The upshot is I used to come back from checking on the engines in the Californian covered in sweat. And now, not so much.

I guess my bottom line is engine room arrangement, physical conditioning, and ventilation can all make a huge difference in how comfortable it is to work down there when underway or shortly thereafter.

I'm not too concerned about ER temps in this case, at least without knowing more.
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Old 09-09-2019, 12:42 PM   #24
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I ordered two new oil coolers, with fast shipping. Going to swap the trans cooler as soon as it arrives, fill the system and test the trans in the confines of the marina (while still tied to the dock, lol)



If it feels good then we'll motor down to Alameda as soon as I can round up some crew.


I'm told by another Paragon trans owner that the fact that we stayed in gear the whole trip, and that it wasn't noisy, and that it still has full range of shift on its lever means that the clutches might be okay.


We shall see soon.


I will swap out the engine oil cooler with my first oil change.
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Old 09-09-2019, 01:07 PM   #25
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I will look for that oil in the morning when we test it out.
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I ordered two new oil coolers, with fast shipping.
Seems like I missed something in between those two.

Did you find fluid in the engine pan or bilge? Did you confirm that forward gear works if you just add fluid?

Inquiring minds, and all that...
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Old 09-09-2019, 01:27 PM   #26
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Shaft Noise

Hello all, occasionally I hear a Medium to high-pitched Sound from my port driveshaft at Idle after shifting to reverse or shifting to forward in close quarters. This ususally occurs the when the Starboard shaft is walking the opposite direction at an idle also. The sound goes away with a touch of the throttle. I have a flanged two stud packing box arrangement, and have replaced the packing with new packing and proper lubrication during the process, and it came back occasionally on the second and third trip. It goes away completely above idle, or when I go out to sea, and does not return until the boat sits for a couple of days Iíve probably replaced the packing five times in 10 years and not had this problem before. I keep between two and eight drips per minute on the adjustment of the packing. The engine to shaft alignment is pretty good, but not perfect. The .003 feeler gauge is snug, like it should be, with clearance closer to .002, but the right to left offset is where it is less than perfect, perhaps 1mm out of alignment, even thought he bolts slide right in. I will need to make some adjustments on the engine mount studs mounts in the stringer to make it perfect. The boat has never been grounded in my ownership of 10 years, and this just started. I have at least 2500 hours on the port cutlass bearings, and when diving it feels good, but I will replace at the next Haul out in about a year and a half. There is a lock nut and stud on the topof the packing box and that I hremoved and screwed in to bottom and out 1/4 turn. It's purpose is unclear, unless it holds a bushing in place? Does anyone have any experience or ideas with this? Does the Cutlass bearing have any metal inside of it that could create this noise as it wears?

Thank you very much, Garry

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Old 09-09-2019, 03:49 PM   #27
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Capt Tom - no ATF in the bilge so it all went out the exhaust. New oil coolers arrive tomorrow if all goes as planned.



Pete - I wasn't just checking the level, but was adding ATF a bit at time and re-checking. Probably down there 15 minutes. Back at the back end of the engine I don't have much room, nor did I have much breeze finding me. It wasn't HOTTT, probably only 90, but I was sweating like crazy and exhausted and could see it was going to take even more ATF, so I figured why not come back out of the engine room and be comfortable? :-)



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Old 09-09-2019, 06:40 PM   #28
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Hey Gary,

Cutlass bearings can make a squealing. This is usually cause by inadequate lubrication. For example, something getting bent and rubbing. Or a rope preventing water flow.
Another possibility might be that bottom growth is preventing water flow through the bearing and cooling it.

Bearing problems usually change sounds if not get louder as RPM goes up. They usually don't go away. But, they can get burried under the rest of the sound and made unhearable.

Stuffing boxes usually don't make noise, at least not unless they are super tight. If you think yours is making noise, try loosening it way more than normal, let it drip really fast and make a bit of a mess. Does the same thing still happen? No need to test excessively. Then, just clean up the mess from the water.

Without hearing the sound or knowing exactly where it is loudest, it is really hard to even offer any guesses.
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Old 09-10-2019, 09:47 AM   #29
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Hello all, occasionally I hear a Medium to high-pitched Sound from my port driveshaft at Idle after shifting to reverse or shifting to forward in close quarters. This ususally occurs the when the Starboard shaft is walking the opposite direction at an idle also. The sound goes away with a touch of the throttle. I have a flanged two stud packing box arrangement, and have replaced the packing with new packing and proper lubrication during the process, and it came back occasionally on the second and third trip. It goes away completely above idle, or when I go out to sea, and does not return until the boat sits for a couple of days Iíve probably replaced the packing five times in 10 years and not had this problem before. I keep between two and eight drips per minute on the adjustment of the packing. The engine to shaft alignment is pretty good, but not perfect. The .003 feeler gauge is snug, like it should be, with clearance closer to .002, but the right to left offset is where it is less than perfect, perhaps 1mm out of alignment, even thought he bolts slide right in. I will need to make some adjustments on the engine mount studs mounts in the stringer to make it perfect. The boat has never been grounded in my ownership of 10 years, and this just started. I have at least 2500 hours on the port cutlass bearings, and when diving it feels good, but I will replace at the next Haul out in about a year and a half. There is a lock nut and stud on the topof the packing box and that I hremoved and screwed in to bottom and out 1/4 turn. It's purpose is unclear, unless it holds a bushing in place? Does anyone have any experience or ideas with this? Does the Cutlass bearing have any metal inside of it that could create this noise as it wears?

Thank you very much, Garry

Always Sunny, DF41, Twin Lehman 120s with velvet drives.</SPAN>


So are you saying that from top to bottom you have between .002 and .003 between the two flanges but the sides have a difference of almost 1mm? 1mm is almost .040" which is a lot to be out of alignment. That much could easily cause issues including noises and vibration.


Ken
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Old 09-10-2019, 09:48 AM   #30
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Hey Ken,

Thanks for making me feel better!

Good thing there is only one of those per boat, eh?

-Greg

I have 2, but at least they've both been overhauled now. So I'm hoping for another 4-5000 hrs.


Ken
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Old 09-10-2019, 01:24 PM   #31
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Hey Ken,

Why would you have two reverse gears in the same boat? With neither engine being a contra-rotating engine, shouldn't one be a CR2 and the other a standard 72C?

Out of curiosity, I called my mechanic and asked about the price tag for the rebuild. He told me that it is what the shop charged, and that it is pretty typical for what he has seen recently. He said they have all come back $1900 - $2500.

When I asked him if the 72C would be cheaper than the 72C-CR2 he said that he didn't think so, at least by much, but that he didn't really know for sure because the last 72s he sent their way were all CR2s.

He did confirm that the control valve was rebuilt. He also reiterated that in my case it was a full rebuilding including the valve, all clutches and bearings, all seals, etc, and that it was now like new.

He said that his rebuilder might be more expensive than some because he does a lot of post-rebuild testing with a real motor and jig post-rebuild. And that he uses him because they come back on time and perfect 100% of the time and, he just doesn't want to mess with anything else.

So, from what I gather, the actual rebuilder was probably not the least expensive out there, but has served this mechanic well and the price wasn't the most compelling factor in his selection.

And, as I mentioned in other posts, after working with or interviewing half a dozen or so folks who were reportedly mechanics (but often lacked any discernible understanding of how motors work), I feel like I've won the lottery with this guy. He seems to go beyond basic understanding to having genuine intuition from experience, gets things done, gets them done right, his labor bills seem accurate, he answers my calls, and gets things done in a timely way.

...so, I'm not too worried about what his rebuilder charges, either. I was thrilled to get to enjoy the boat over labor day!
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Old 09-10-2019, 01:31 PM   #32
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Why would you have two reverse gears in the same boat? With neither engine being a contra-rotating engine, shouldn't one be a CR2 and the other a standard 72C?
The CR2 can be set up to output same as engine or opposite, so you'd use one CR2 set up each way for counter rotating outputs. The ratio options are slightly different than the standard 72C and the output is lower than the input on the CR2 rather than in line, so you wouldn't want to use a 72C on one side and a CR2 on the other.
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Old 09-10-2019, 01:33 PM   #33
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The CR2's come both ways. Reverse and non reverse. I have one of each which is normal. They have a "dropped" output shaft - on the order of 1.6" lower than the input. So while you certainly could use a CR2 for the reverse and something else for the non-reverse, they would have the engines in a different location, height and/or angle. So one has the reverse idler gear in it and the other doesn't.


Funny so much talk about the control valve, they are very simple.


Ken
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Old 09-10-2019, 01:37 PM   #34
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CR2 manual.
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File Type: pdf Velvet-Drive CR2 Service Manual .pdf (1.69 MB, 17 views)
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Old 09-10-2019, 01:48 PM   #35
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Hey ken,

Thanks so much!

Somehow I totally missed that. I'd assumed the other one was a 72C. But, I am apparently totally wrong about that. I need to take a look at how it next time I am at the boat!

I guess I was looking more at the rebuild parts than the gear configuration when i was looking at the manuals and totally missed the difference in shaft configuration. I just somehow assumed that the "R" in CR2 was reverse.

My two gears do look alike to a casual observer, so I'm betting they are both CR2s. (Neither still has a plate).


My other gear is running well, reasonable smoothly and quietly, etc. Like I said, I think the reason the starboard one died was that chronic leak and low fluid situation. But, I am thinking of having it rebuilt in the early spring (after my winter break), just to have them both done. Right now the boat has 2 rebuilt engines and a reasonably new genset -- but only one rebuilt transmission. 20 years from now no one will expect only one to have been done. I was hoping to catch a break on the cost of the next rebuild -- but I guess not!

Another option is just, well, not to rebuild a perfectly good transmission. But, somehow, the asymmetry is bothering me. Maybe if I get the $4k in small bills and stack it on top of the perfectly good port transmission, it'll seem more symmetric and I can won't feel the need to spend it on rebuilding? :-)

Thanks again!

-Greg
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Old 09-10-2019, 01:53 PM   #36
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I had a transmission cooler fail last year. But instead of just losing all the ATF, the damn thing filled up with seawater. My understanding is if the cooler fails, ATF and raw sea water will mix, just as it did on mine.

My amateur suggestion would be to fill the tranny first and test it out in gear. Watch your wet exhaust on the water. If there's a sheen then the ATF is indeed leaking out.

Of course, as many suggest changing coolers every few years it certainly won't hurt to do just that! Good luck.
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Old 09-10-2019, 02:06 PM   #37
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I would go ahead and change out the coolers unless you know how old they are. If the age is unknown then swap them out just in case, they are not that expensive compared to a transmission. I just painted the 2 new coolers I bought since I have no idea how old the ones in my boat are. Unfortunately the new coolers look beautiful and when I put them on the engines they will make the engines look bad...
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Old 09-10-2019, 02:47 PM   #38
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What is the problem reaching the transmission ??
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Old 09-10-2019, 03:22 PM   #39
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Greetings,
Have you lost your propeller?


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Old 09-10-2019, 04:58 PM   #40
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What he said. That is way, way out of alignment. If it were my boat, I would run it only as far to a yard to have it aligned or not run till I did it myself. The standard is .001 per inch of flange diameter. So, if you have a six inch flange, best alignment is no more than .006 all around. Bad alignment stresses the entire drive train.
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So are you saying that from top to bottom you have between .002 and .003 between the two flanges but the sides have a difference of almost 1mm? 1mm is almost .040" which is a lot to be out of alignment. That much could easily cause issues including noises and vibration.


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