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Old 04-07-2013, 11:08 AM   #41
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With the usual boat running 200 hours a year a poorly maintained gasser will run a decade , 2000 hours if heat exchanger cooled.

A modern built gasser will run closer to 4000 hours , even more if in a displacement boat.

That could easily be 25 YEARS!

There are throw away diesels (require removal to overhaul , no inframe possible) ,

CAT 3208 comes to mind .

For 200 hours a year the cost of ownership and operation would favor GAS by 2 or 3-1.

To get an idea of how easily a diesel can become trash , simply review the broker listings and see how many non sport fish have replacement diesels , some only 5 or 10 years old!!!



Hey Marin - Yeah... What Fred Says! Read his post carefully...

Face it, Marin - In boats and land-vehicles, well maintained and carefully used gasoline engines can experience little to no problems during their lifetimes of a decade or two or three while running smooth and quiet all the way through. Unlike diesels, replacement is easier and less expensive. I know this first hand having dealt with both engine types in boats and trucks. Experience Marin... firsthand knowledge about marine items comes down to what one experiences during decades of boating-life.

I've noting against marine diesels... matter O' fact I at times recommend diesels in boats for instances and reasons. I always say that I feel in boats 45’ +/- diesel power is nearly mediatory... but in smaller trawlers (i.e. boats such as size of yours and mine, that you affectionately call “toy-boats”), as well as for many other such sized boats on TF, gasoline engines could/would/do provide a really good lowered cost and reduced effort alternative to diesel. I have nothing against having diesel in any size boat... if that is how it came equipped or how the owner wants it to be powered

Whereas, you, Marin... you simply like to refuse to give marine gasoline engines in small to midsized trawlers even an inch of room for their proven qualities and useful applications/purposes. I've had personal experience with self contained cabin cruisers equipped with twin and single screw diesel and gas engines. I well listen to your stories and other TF members’ stories about many items regarding diesels. You, Marin should listen to stories about gasoline engines... open your mind... you might learn something!
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Old 04-07-2013, 11:26 AM   #42
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Wonderful post FF.

The main reason we usually have diesels in our trawlers is because of the first word in the expression "heavy duty". Before the cutesy name trawler evolved trawlers were called heavy cruisers and to put a lightweight engine in a heavy duty boat just didn't fit. People need things in their lives that fit so the world can be a proper place and often a notional fit is most important. What we wear is chosen mostly by what we look like when wearing it ... practical considerations (objectivity) takes a second place.

The diesel choice is laden w the very objective (it seems) fact that there's a very real safety issue w gas. Very few get objective enough to run the numbers and see how really unlikely a gas explosion would be even w average safety precautions.

So FF brings to bear some very objective things to consider re a gas engine in a trawler. Next to nobody is going to run right out and put a gas engine in their trawler because of what it would do to the resale value. If someone would put a good gas engine in my Willard and take it out and reinstall my Mitsu when I was ready to sell I'd consider it. I'd consider it because of the wonderful smoothness and quiet running of gasoline engines. There are many other real advantages but I've said enough.
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Old 04-07-2013, 12:10 PM   #43
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Engine life span is not measured in hours, engines are measured in how many lbs of fuel they can consume before they ware out, Even engine hrs for maintenance is not real good to a point, < example > I run my engine @ 4500 RPM vs you run the same engine @ 2500 PM, My engine life span will come up sooner than yours in HRs & my log maintenance should be @ shorter hour intervals. This applies to gas or diesel power, Gas and diesel have a place in the boating market and cost and weight is a large factor as well as the intended function of the boat, I have seen many large high HP v10, v12 & v16 not go 1000 hrs before over haul from full load operation all the time and the same engine block design but with less HP used in a slow full displacement hull go 15 to 20k hrs, Engine design , stroke, rod ratio , compression, bore, # of rings, piston skirt length, rotating weight and the list goes on & on, some engine designs have proven themselves over the test of time when maintained properly. I find in boats that corrosion over time is the biggest problem.
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Old 04-07-2013, 02:00 PM   #44
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Watch it Al. Better keep looking over your shoulder. A unicorn could be running up behind you. That would hurt.
I'm not worried. BTW, did you know they taste like chicken?

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Old 04-07-2013, 03:40 PM   #45
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You, Marin should listen to stories about gasoline engines... open your mind... you might learn something! [/FONT][/COLOR]
We have diesels in our boat. Therefore this entire thread is moot as far as we're concerned because since we didn't settle for second-best at the outset it means we have no reason to attempt to rationalize some sort of coolness onto something that isn't.

But don't let that stop you from soldiering on. It's as entertaining as listening to the fellow who bought a Yugo way back when justify his decision.
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Old 04-07-2013, 07:22 PM   #46
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Marin if you think smelly, noisy diesels are cool you must associate w garbage truck drivers and bull dozer operators. What can possibly be cool about a truck or industrial engine?

We're at Starbucks in Bellingham and I just told my wife Christine that I was giving Marin (yea she knows who he is) tons of crap today and she said "what is it .. Marin's Day?.
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Old 04-08-2013, 12:06 AM   #47
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We have diesels in our boat. Therefore this entire thread is moot as far as we're concerned because since we didn't settle for second-best at the outset it means we have no reason to attempt to rationalize some sort of coolness onto something that isn't.

But don't let that stop you from soldiering on. It's as entertaining as listening to the fellow who bought a Yugo way back when justify his decision.
Marin

You seem intelligent, yet you keep ears closed and eyes shut regarding the good potentials and clear reasons for gasoline engines simply being a reasonable alternate marine power source to diesel. I know you do not want to hear from me, in down-beat sentences/paragraphs you often make that crudely, blatantly obvious... so... I recommend you listen to other TM contributors who clearly understand the high and low points/reasons that are associated with the use of both diesel and gasoline engines. As often said: For boating everything is a trade off! Diesel and gasoline engines each offer reasons to be a boats power.

BTW - - > Due to your too often incessant innuendoes toward me and some others I’ve simply become tired of being one of your punching bags and feel I must address this issue/condition, for the good of all concerned... yourself included:

Your crudely pointless innuendos are a poor showing as a way to try and deride persons as well as try to put down product... such as gasoline engines, an officially, broadly acceptable marine power source. If you’ll notice, I and others you have assaulted with derisions via vernacular that is at times sharply cutting and sometimes plain dumb... we don’t lash back at you, we stand above that level... you do good enough job digging your own ditch. Come on now Marin – lighten up and open your eyes and ears to reasons why gasoline marine engines are also a good source of power for small to midsized boats. No matter what you may think, your diesels do not make you a better person, or your boat necessarily better that when a boat may be powered by gas engines. And... Although Diesel Engines are a fine source of power – SO ARE Gasoline Engines a fine source of power! I hope for your sake that you can eventually comprehend that true fact.
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Old 04-08-2013, 01:24 AM   #48
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Al---- You are making a mountain out of a molehill. I don't care what kind of engines you have in your boat. I don't care if you even have a boat. I just find it amusing to read attempts to justify a power source that the industry turned its back on fifty years ago.

You say open my ears. Sorry, but I'm simply not interested in what some amateur boater with an old gas Tollycraft has to say on the subject. That may not be polite or tactful but it is honest.

What I am interested in, and what I do open my eyes and ears to, is what I experience when I visit Maine and Prince Edward Island where there are hundreds if not thousands of commercial lobster boats. Thirty to forty-five foot boats that operate for hours at or near idle or running pot lines, and then get up on a near plane at 15 or 18 knots to get their catch to port. Every one of them (that I've seen or been on) is diesel powered.

Lobstermen have to make every penny count. If there was a better engine for the job, one that was less expensive to own and operate over time while doing the job they need it to do, they'd have it. And they all have diesels.

The fishing fleet in our marina is composed of purse seiners, crabbers, gillnetters, and combination boats. Same deal--- their boats have to cost as little as possible to own, operate, and maintain without compromising longevity and reliability. Diesel, everyone of them. I'm told even the purse seiners' net boats, ugly brutes of things that all used to be powered by huge Ford or Chevy V-8s, are mostly all diesel now.

So don't waste any more words trying to convince me that gas engines are worthwhile engines for boats like the one I have. Of course you and Eric and FF are certainly free to continue your armchair-theory discussion about the wonders of gas engines, but the boating world, at least the cruising and commercial part of it, bailed on gas ages ago.

As have I. Unlike you and I guess Eric and Fred, I do not believe a gasoline power plant is a viable power source for boats like mine, full stop. Eric is always admonishing me for not expressing my own opinions; well, there's one. I don't believe gas engines are "a fine source of power" for boats like mine. I think they're a crap source of power for boats like mine. Debating the issue is pointless as far as I'm concerned because in my view there is no issue to debate. All you have is an outdated idea to try to rationalize.

(This is where Northern Spy is supposed to jump in ad say, "But you are debating the issue, dumbass.")

When the New England and Canadian lobster fleets, the Irish and North Seas langoustine fleets, the English Channel scallop fleets, the Persian Gulf dhow fleets, the PNW salmon fleets, and Grand Banks, Nordhavn,, Nordic Tug, and Fleming start putting gasoline engines in their boats, then you come talk to me about gas engines in boats and I'll listen.

Until then, it's just amateur forum fodder.
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Old 04-08-2013, 06:51 AM   #49
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"When the New England and Canadian lobster fleets, the Irish and North Seas langoustine fleets, the English Channel scallop fleets, the Persian Gulf dhow fleets, the PNW salmon fleets, and Grand Banks, Nordhavn,, Nordic Tug, and Fleming start putting gasoline engines in their boats, then you come talk to me about gas engines in boats and I'll listen."

Size counts , and yearly hours counts ,,most of these listed boats require over 100hp (per engine) to operate within their normal conditions.

AND they operate over 200 hours a year , the fuel bill for 2000+ hours a year would as always cause most rational folks to choose diesel.

One point not yet discussed is the QUIET that is easily has from a modern gas engine, operating a couple of hundred hours a year..

With the same level of noise proofing that is required to tame a diesel, it would be hard to know the engine is operating. Yachting is supposed to be fun , not just endured.

True modern big buck diesels with 4 -5 injections per stroke are far better than the old farm implements found in yachty "trawlers" , but there still far from enjoyable, and $30,000+++ each .

With our 6-71 and dry stack at high cruise I do find the exhaust note very pleasing, BUT that's outside , not inside. And rare because unlike the lobster fleet ,I cant pass my fuel cost on to taxpayers.

"Next to nobody is going to run right out and put a gas engine in their trawler because of what it would do to the resale value.

This assumes the value of Strutting the dock is higher than the actual cost of repairing or operating a rec boat.

The old Ford Econo Power is replaced today with a Perkins , costing big bucks.

Any gas modern engine could be an easy install to produce under 100hp ( usually about 20- 40 for cruise) .

The lower cost of maint - 6 quarts of oil not 6 -8 gallons, , $5.00 oil filter not $25. ,$2.50 spark plugs vs $75.00 injector rebuilds , even a starter rebuild at $40.-$60. compares better to a $300 -$500 change out.

When the EGO factor is removed , gas could make sense in many "trawlers" .

The only hassle is the ethanol dumped in the fuel that shortens its storage life , and the very pricy cost of gasoline and reduced avalibility on a long cruise out of the country.1 trawler in 1000?
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Old 04-08-2013, 12:03 PM   #50
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The only hassle is the ethanol dumped in the fuel that shortens its storage life , and the very pricy cost of gasoline and reduced avalibility on a long cruise out of the country.1 trawler in 1000?
Ethanol is no hassle at all, I found the cure last Tuesday. Kick it up to 20 knots and empty the tank quicker. Found out it's a heck of a lot of fun too.
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Old 04-08-2013, 02:25 PM   #51
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One point not yet discussed is the QUIET that is easily has from a modern gas engine, operating a couple of hundred hours a year..

Shoot, Fred, what's the point of operating a machine if you can't get the benefit of the sound? I love the sound of the R-985 on the Beaver. One of the (less important) reasons we ordered a nice big V-8 in our new truck instead of Ford's high-tech but limp-wristed EconoBoost V-6 is to get that V-8 rumble, which this truck has in spades. Even Consumer Reports complained about the "annoying whine and whoosh" of the Econoboost engine.

Hearing our diesels growl away under the floor of our GB is part of what's neat about running the boat. I've ridden in a gas boat (Tollycraft 26). Pretty pathetic by comparison.

It's iike riding in a Prius. Great car, cool technology, and as exciting and satisfying an experience as watching grass grow.

I agree with you in that there's a point at which noise can become annoying, tiring, or even uncomfortable. Good friends who used to live on Sucia Island in the San Juans had a 70' steel fireboat powered by twin Detroit 8V-71s. The exhaust run left each engine, ran a few feet to the side of the boat, and exited. Talk about loud. Gary eventually installed mufflers which helped some but that was one loud boat, although the noise level up in the pilothouse was actually not bad at all.

Sound, like music and art, is subjective. I know there are boaters who hate hearing even the tiniest bit of sound from their engines. But I'm not one of them. Hearing the engines tells us what they are doing, and is one reason we will not run a boat from the flying bridge. At the lower helm we can hear, feel, and smell them and they are but seconds away from a visual check if necessary.
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Old 04-08-2013, 02:33 PM   #52
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Ethanol is no hassle at all, I found the cure last Tuesday. Kick it up to 20 knots and empty the tank quicker. Found out it's a heck of a lot of fun too.
Good one Craig - That means you can have new hi-tech engines installed in boat sooner than later... so you can do 25 knots during next group of tank drains! Runnen near WOT on newbie’s ain’t never much a problem... long as they be a newbie – which don’t last too awful long! Turn up da Rock n' Roll – Yeah Baby!! LOL

Or... you can simply add Soltron http://www.soltron.com/ (sold in NAPA stores) to your fuel, gas or diesel! I don’t experience ethanol fuel problem... for several years, not a smidge of water or gooey-gunk in my gasoline screw on filters, in line filters, or carbs’ entry line cone-filters.

Rule of thumb(s) I use to get long life and best economy from my marine gas engines:

1. Cruise 15 to 20% below hull speed as much of the time as warranted while running only one engine at a time (I often alternate engine use / our BW VD trany free wheel prop with no problem – check with your trany mfg about freewheeling a prop, you might need to lock a shaft in position). This technique for “mellow” cruising can enable many more “overall” running hours (does not extend per engine’ actual hour life) on a twin screw boat before either engine needs repair. This method gets our Tolly between 2.5 and 2.75 nmpg – traveling at 6 to 6.5 knots (7.58 is our boat’s calculated hull speed).

2. When on a high plane with both engines running (never even try to hit plane or stay there using just one engine – too stressful on the engine and freewheeling of a trany) rpm should not be kept over 70% of WOT rpm for any length of time... in our Tolly that amounts to rpm at WOT 4500 x .70 = 3150 rpm for a nice level plane of 16 to 17 knots, depending on load aboard. That gets us about 1 nmpg... with enough speed to get some place rather quickly (that’s near 3X over our mellow one engine cruise speed). If equipped, adjust trim tabs properly... can make a world of difference for speed, nmpg, and reduced engine stress.

3. WOT should be used only in short as possible burst to remove boat from a dangerous situation or for occasional check up on something.

4. At 100 hours use the finest oil of your choice and add 4 oz ZDDP (sold in NAPA stores) http://www.zddplus.com/ (see the video) at each change with another 4 oz way between changes. New filter at change. My preference in all of my classic, flat tappet gasoline engines, marine and land, is 4 oz ZDDP with Valvoline 5W-40 HD Diesel Oil (dino oil not synth oil – although, I am contemplating to begin using synth oil) Caution: ZDDP’s zinc content is not recommended for use with catalytic converters.

Let’s keep our engines purren and boats a cruzen!

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Old 04-09-2013, 07:30 AM   #53
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Shoot, Fred, what's the point of operating a machine if you can't get the benefit of the sound?

You are conversing with a guy that sold his 250 Ducatti Scrambler and got a BMW R60 US .

I had enough noise with round motors to never need it again, esp INSIDE!
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Old 04-09-2013, 09:42 AM   #54
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I know what a 250cc Ducati scrambler sounds like ...

An obnoxious symphony of a pounding little piston barking out it's exhaust pipe.

When I was in the Navy in San Diego in the 60s the Ducati dealer would regularly jump on a 250 Scrambler and blast up and down the street. Sometimes we'd hang out a bit extra to hear the little Duc make it's 2 min blast up and down the street. Beautiful! The British thumpers would sound basically the same but the Ducati seemed to have a sweet edge.

Lots of engine sounds can be beautiful but enough is enough. I put higher performance muffs on my 455 Buick and there's just a slight sweet rumble. VERY sweet if your'e standing 5' behind the rear bumper but after an hour on the road ......................................

I hear what your'e say'in Marin but on a boat ...... hour after hour .. FORGET IT! I'll take as quiet as possible.
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Old 04-09-2013, 11:08 AM   #55
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I put higher performance muffs on my 455 Buick and there's just a slight sweet rumble. VERY sweet if your'e standing 5' behind the rear bumper but after an hour on the road ......................................
Hi Eric

I think you mentioned before that you have FlowMaster muffs on your Buick (a Centurion, which replaced Buick’s Wildcat model in 71 - right???). I've dual 2" i.d. pipes w/ 33 degree rear-flow bend in a cross over pressure equalizer pipe just behind oil pan and "mid range" FM muffs amidship on my 67 Wildcat for sweet, sweet sounds, at different rpm! I leave in an hour for 150 mi round trip to examine w/o equip in a warehouse. Always look forward to enjoying a hwy trip in the 4,400 lb “Luxo Muscle Car”... i.e. My Cat! I love to screw around with all the little speedsters on open road. You know – Beemers. Benzees, Vets, Stangs, and now even the fast electric Tesla’s. Of course, in comparison to many – My Cat does drink up some gallons of hightest petrol! LOL
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Old 04-09-2013, 12:32 PM   #56
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We need to start a fund for Marin to get him a Harley D with megaphones.

The folks 3-4 miles away will notice the wonderful sounds motorized jewlery can make.

With the noise, the unending shaking and engine vibration , he will be in heaven!
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Old 04-09-2013, 02:55 PM   #57
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HAHAHA Marin would have a blast until he couldn't hear anymore.

Actually a motorcycle engine could power my Willy.

A 500cc water cooled CX V twin. They are very durable, dependable and require very little maintenance. They are ultra short stroke and develop their rated hp (60) at 10500 rpm. I remember cruising my CX at high sustained rpm and while leading a MC group taking it to redline in the gears to keep from getting over run by all the faster bikes.

The water cooled exhaust could be a bit of a challenge and it probably would need a pre-reduction drive because of the high engine speed. An HTD cog belt reduction should work fine.

Just exercising my out of the box tendencies.

How many hours it would give good service I couldn't guess except I'm quite sure it would be longer than 95% of TF members would guess.
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:11 PM   #58
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We need to start a fund for Marin to get him a Harley D with megaphones.

Wouldn't own a Harley. World's crappiest, over-priced motorcyle. If it wasn't for the Hell's Angels image they'd have gone out of business long ago.

I've never been much into motorcycles. I had a WWII surplus BMW for a bit my first year at Colorado State. It had been built as a sidecar bike so had a stick shift and a reverse. No sidecar, though. I got rid of it for an Austin Healey 3000 MkII with a Jaguar XK engine in it.

That car and the National Match Garand M1 I had at the same time were the two things in my life I should never have gotten rid of.

I think motocycles are neat machines and if I didn't have so much other stuff taking up my time I might consider one. But I like English motorcycles, specifically the Vincent Black Shadow although I've also always like the vertical-twin Nortons, too.

But Harleys? Chrome plated rubbish.

To keep this a bit on topic, I love the sound of our diesels in the boat hour after hour. Sounds like you're going somewhere and doing something fun. I would get tired of the shattering blast of Detroits, however. The aku boats I filmed on in Hawaii a few times all had a single 6-71 for power but they ran the dry exhaust through a huge muffler. So on deck the sound of the engine was just a distant rumble.

But there are some boats in our marina with 8V-71s and even though they have mufflers of sorts, when they start them up you can hear the damn things in Seattle. That racket I would get very tired of. But a couple of 4-stroke in-line sixes under the floor, that's a great sound and I never get tired of it even on an eight or ten hour run.

Same thing with the wonderful, big, three-cylinder Lister air-cooled diesels in the narrowboat we hire in the UK. Magnificent sound. It's the sound of the working boats of the 30s, 40s, and 50s.

I love running engines and the more the merrier. A big part of what I like about it is the sound. But then I'm (among other things) a music producer so cool sounding sound is a big part of my life.
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Old 04-09-2013, 11:02 PM   #59
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Gassers

Our current boat is a SeaRay 400 express with 700HP in the form of twin 7.4L V-8's. I will admit that it warms the heart when I fire up both of those monsters and she idles at the dock. The exhausts are 6" dia. at the corners of the transom and it has quite a lope to the exhaust sound.

At slow cruise it is remarkably quiet.. a bit less so at 2900 rpm @19kts. As a long term diesel guy the gas motors do invoke a bit of concern regarding the ability to blow one's self up and the CO issues.

After Volunteer's nearly 4mpg the .70mpg is also a bit hard to handle. About the best mpg I can coax out of her is 1.5mpg @ 6.5kts. Hopefully someone in the near future finds that they would much rather own the Sea Ray than I would and I can get back to a respectable trawler!

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Old 04-10-2013, 03:52 AM   #60
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Eric, FF, and Art, when are you guys going to realise Marin is having a ball yanking your chains....
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