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Old 05-10-2013, 07:03 AM   #41
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That is on the the plus of the DD as they can be rebuilt in place frame at 2 grand per hole.

I hope you get a kiss with the work, the parts kit , cylinders pistons and all the rest is about $1100 bucks.

Cylinder head is usually sent out, under a grand .

The engine still must be lifted to get the rods out and replace the crank bearings.

On yachts I have mostly seen engines killed ,destroyed rather than worn out.

Snow birding from ME to FL will be about 500 hours a year , so 5000-6000 hours takes a long time.

Use the engine as a gen set , charging batts and making refrigeration , no load, and the rebuild is far closer.
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Old 05-10-2013, 09:30 AM   #42
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If one rebuilds an old Ford Lehman one gets all it dated features like simple dependable mechanics BUT .....

You get,

Excess noise and vibration.
Ex fuel consumption.
Ex weight.
Ex maint. You even get to change oil in the fuel pump.
Oil sheen on the water at startup.
Parts are somewhat hard to find.
And you can't get more than 80hp out of them for fear of over heating.

Why would anyone want to rebuild one? Especially when the cost of a new and modern engine w none of the features of the old Ford listed above is only slightly more money or even the same amount.
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Old 05-10-2013, 10:20 AM   #43
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If one rebuilds an old Ford Lehman one gets all it dated features like simple dependable mechanics BUT .....

You get,

Excess noise and vibration.
Ex fuel consumption.
Ex weight.
Ex maint. You even get to change oil in the fuel pump.
Oil sheen on the water at startup.
Parts are somewhat hard to find.
And you can't get more than 80hp out of them for fear of over heating.

Why would anyone want to rebuild one? Especially when the cost of a new and modern engine w none of the features of the old Ford listed above is only slightly more money or even the same amount.


I bought the Eagle as a singe because of the DD 671 being a proven reliable engine for decades and parts and service are available. Besides the 671 will probable out live me. I donít want anything removed, hole cut to remove the 671 as its about in the middle of the boat, and there is no hatch. Our DD 671 is quieter than the gen set as we installed custom muffler system and the engine room is insulted. My diesel truck makes more noise.


Well, the 2 grand is estimate. Probable when the time comes I will prepare and strip down the engine, and be right there when itís done. So I have an idea of the time spend and cost. My mechanic constant bills me for less than what I estimated and willing to pay, and I have to remind him to send me an invocie.
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Old 05-10-2013, 12:50 PM   #44
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If one rebuilds an old Ford Lehman one gets all it dated features like simple dependable mechanics BUT .....

You get,

Excess noise and vibration.
I'm not sure so sure. A low rpm FL six vs a high rev 4 cylinder?

Ex fuel consumption.
It would take a long time to get the pay back on our fuel consumption.

Ex weight.
Since we are full displacement, I would consider adding ballast to make up for the weight loss of 600 lbs.

Ex maint. You even get to change oil in the fuel pump.
Ok yes on the FL120 but not on the SP135

Oil sheen on the water at start-up.
A little smoke but no sheen on start up.

Parts are somewhat hard to find.
Haven't found that to be an issue.

And you can't get more than 80hp out of them for fear of over heating.
The over heating is a potential on the FL120 but not the SP135. We are only using 60 or so hp anyway.

Why would anyone to rebuild one? Especially when the cost of a new and modern engine w none of the features of the old Ford listed above is only slightly more money or even the same amount.
Eric: You hit my hot button on this one! The engine Iveco you referenced is rated at 175.5 hp. To much hp for most FL replacements.

If we were to re-power, I would probably go with a Deere or a Lugger for proven reliability in marine applications, support, resale and reputation.
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Old 05-10-2013, 01:21 PM   #45
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The sheen on the water at cold startup is NOT oil for the 500th time. It is unburned fuel because of the incomplete combustion in the cold cylinders. All diesels of this generation do it to some degree. It may be very obvious, it might not be. It took electronic fuel monitoring and other technologies to stop it according to my friends in the engineering department at Northern Lights/Lugger.

The fuel sheen put out by old Lehmans, Perkins, etc will go away in a few minutes as the combustion chambers come up to temperature. If it doesn't there is a problem with the engine.
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Old 05-10-2013, 01:29 PM   #46
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Eric: You hit my hot button on this one! The engine Iveco you referenced is rated at 175.5 hp. To much hp for most FL replacements.

Larry, this engine is available as a 230hp, 173hp and 115hp. For a near exact power replacement just choose the 115hp engine.

If we were to re-power, I would probably go with a Deere or a Lugger for proven reliability in marine applications, support, resale and reputation.

Sure they are very good but how much do you pay for that and the biggest question is will you ever need it. Also you may be assuming Iveco is an unknown but worldwide they may be better established than Deere or Lugger. One of lugger's engines is made by toyota and one could be made by Iveco. Probably not though but it's a world market now.


Excess noise and vibration.
I'm not sure so sure. A low rpm FL six vs a high rev 4 cylinder?

More power strokes per revolution = less torsional vibration and rubber engine mounts are better at isolating higher frequency vibrations that low. All other things being equal smaller engines vibrate less. This engine is only 180 cu in. Less weight of reciprocating parts and computer controlled fuel injection timing v/s fixed = less vibes too. [/I]

Ex fuel consumption.
It would take a long time to get the pay back on our fuel consumption.

Of course ... I'll give you that.

Ex weight.
Since we are full displacement, I would consider adding ballast to make up for the weight loss of 600 lbs.

Yes to that too but for you and I and only a few more. Most are semi-planing on this forum and any weight reduction for SD is golden. Think of how much better a GB36 would be if it had one of these Iveco engines instead of two Lehmans. That would be not far from a two ton reduction in weight.

Ex maint. You even get to change oil in the fuel pump.
Ok yes on the FL120 but not on the SP135

Ture.

Oil sheen on the water at start-up.
A little smoke but no sheen on start up.

Dirty smoke though .. visable and loaded w stinky "stuff". And the clean burning is wonderful compared to the old oil engines of the past (Lehman).

Parts are somewhat hard to find.
Haven't found that to be an issue.

Read it over and over. Many use tractor supply sources for parts.
I'll call it a mixed bag.

And you can't get more than 80hp out of them for fear of over heating.
The over heating is a potential on the FL120 but not the SP135. We are only using 60 or so hp anyway.

I consider this to be a very serious design flaw. I can see running such a flawed engine untill it needs to be replaced but to rebuild it is nuts. So you've got an engine twice as big as you need and you think that's fine??? Underloading is undesirable but it would be a lot better if you wern't basically forced to do it. I'd be looking for a 65hp engine for your boat.
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Old 05-10-2013, 01:48 PM   #47
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A boat chugging at 3GPH is at best!!! using 60HP.More likely 45 or so.

The little Deere IS RATED 80 HP so would be a fine setup.

EWven tho the Deere is a tractor engine its an industrial rating , not a lawn equipment dream 10 min rating.

Even better as the Deere tractor folks sell factory rebuilt engines with NO!!! core required a ,couple of times a year.

Add a rebuilt Twin Disc , and your off cruising at 1/5 the Marine folks "good deal".
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Old 05-10-2013, 02:36 PM   #48
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How does the Deere 80 compare w the Iveco?
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Old 05-10-2013, 07:17 PM   #49
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The 115hp Iveco is rated for WOT operation for 25% of it's "use period".

On the graph/chart it looks like the 115 develops it's 115hp (max) at 2600rpm.
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Old 05-11-2013, 07:59 AM   #50
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Ivecio is really Italian Fiat , will they survive the Euro mess?

Deere is probably a Japan made block marinized by Deere.

Who will have parts on the shelf in 20 years , your guess is as good as mine.
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Old 05-11-2013, 11:23 AM   #51
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Ivecio is really Italian Fiat , will they survive the Euro mess?
Sure. I don't think Europe is going to fail but much hardship is probably yet to be experienced. And here in the US we may be no better off if one is to realistically and objectively consider our very deep debt. We either are going to crash in a day (more likely) or suffer like Europe (quite likely worse) when or IF we address the debt. Our present "sequester" is fly stuff and a "band aid" move in the direction of a solution to our debt. If we really have to pay all that money back we're in deep do do.

Deere is probably a Japan made block marinized by Deere.
I have no idea but would be interesting to know. There was a Lugger that I could have used in Willy that was manufactured in Japan. And in view of what the Japanese have given us in mechanical hardware would I be out of line in saying that Deere being Japanese would be a good thing? Probably not but I know nothing to indicate that the majority of engines w the Deere name on them are designed and manufactured in the US. The Deere has a fine name wherever it comes from. Today it's a world market.

Who will have parts on the shelf in 20 years , your guess is as good as mine.
Do you want me to guess? It's a volatile world now and I'd be a fool to guess. Japan is in trouble. The US is in trouble. Europe is in trouble. China and India have serious troubles. Who dosn't have troubles or isn't seriously threatened? That could be a good question. Hints could be forthcoming on the TV program GPS on Sundays.
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Old 05-12-2013, 07:27 AM   #52
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"If we really have to pay all that money back we're in deep do do."

Payback will be really quite easy to do once we are permitted by our DC Masters to tap the energy in the USA.

WE have the tech to convert coal into diesel , or gas or jet fuel , competitive at $30 a BBL. But are not permitted to do so.

We have the ability to change natural gas into liquid fuel at a slightly higher price.

As we are the energy equal of the mid east (with permission from our masters) selling a natural resource does make money. Ask the mid east, if they are cash starved.

I would like to think a buck a gallon diesel is on the way , after we change rulers.

CLEAN SWEEP is real change.
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Old 05-12-2013, 11:34 AM   #53
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Interesting response but ......



YOU ACTUALLY EXPECT ME TO BELIEVE THAT ?????
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Old 05-12-2013, 12:56 PM   #54
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You are allso ingoring the cost of fitting the engine from a different maker to the salt water in, exhaust lines, controls, etc.
I had a client do a swap from a pair of Iveco 4 cyl to a pair of Cat 6 cyl. He had to change engine mounts, relocate the shafts, exhaust lines, stringer spacing, hatch opening, etc, to the tune of $60k in 2004 dollars. That was over and above the cost of the engines, which, at $40k for the pair, he got a very good deal on.
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Old 05-12-2013, 01:13 PM   #55
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Eric

You are allso ingoring the cost of fitting the engine from a different maker to the salt water in, exhaust lines, controls, etc.
That was the beauty of American Diesel's 150hp replacement engine for the FL120. It was an exact replacement in every way. No need to modify engine stringers or mounts and the engine bolted up to the existing marine gear with nothing but an alignment adjustment required. I believe, but could be wrong, that even the exhaust aligned with the FL120's exhaust so the existing system of elbow, lift muffler and hoses could be used.

In contrast a friend had the failed original engine to his boat (Sabre) replaced with a new Cat diesel. Same cylinder configuration-- straight six-- but that was the only similarity. The cost of modifying the engine stringers and engine mounts, fabricating an all-new new exhaust system, reworking the raw water intake system, routing and installing new wiring and controls, and of course labor, greatly exceeded the purchase cost of the new Cat engine itself.

This has been the primary reason for our indecision so far to repower our own boat. The cost of the new engines is not the concern. It's the effort-- and cost-- of the extensive rework required in the engine room that questions the value of the project.
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Old 05-12-2013, 02:31 PM   #56
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I repowered my old Mainship from a Perkins T6.354 to a Cummins and the engine fit the beds perfectly. I had to do some re plumbing, etc., but those costs and efforts were not really very much.
So it's not always prohibitive. You just need to do all your homework up front.
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Old 05-12-2013, 06:45 PM   #57
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Eric

You are allso ingoring the cost of fitting the engine from a different maker to the salt water in, exhaust lines, controls, etc.
I had a client do a swap from a pair of Iveco 4 cyl to a pair of Cat 6 cyl. He had to change engine mounts, relocate the shafts, exhaust lines, stringer spacing, hatch opening, etc, to the tune of $60k in 2004 dollars. That was over and above the cost of the engines, which, at $40k for the pair, he got a very good deal on.
Keith,
Good point. Perhaps I should have mentioned it but I thought everybody was a grown up here and would have the sense to do a lot of measuring, thinking and evaluating and otherwise considering the differences in the engines prior to jumping in.

One of the engines I was considering for Willy required cutting the engine beds or going to a different type of gear to raise the engine. And of course w the engine I did choose there was the changing of the mounts and other lesser details but overall the engine change from an adaptation standpoint was w very little pain.

And if the Iveco required so much change that the cost of the installation was high enough to make getting the engine too expensive then of course the idea should be scuttled. But since the Iveco is so small it's unlikely many would find it too troublesome to do. And of course if the cost was the same as the cost for a rebuild of the old engine the new engine would be far more desirable.
One fellow on the Willard Group had his crankshaft (Perkins) break in Chatham Strait (Alaska) and it's hard to say it's breaking was not age related. He has a new Beta engine now.
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Old 05-13-2013, 06:20 AM   #58
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Many newer , if more modern, engines will actually have a smaller footprint.

Taking out a tiny engine and sticking in an industrial rated diesel will require loads more work that a modern transplant.

With the fuel burn per hour known a transplant can be better sized for the boat .

Diesels need to work HARD to be efficient ,

tho at 3GPH a 33% improvement to 2 GPH would take many decades to be worth the effort if the swop was done at a marine $hop.
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Old 05-13-2013, 07:26 AM   #59
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Diesels need to work HARD to be efficient ,
Get over the "efficiency" thing ... if an engine burns 7 gph at its most efficient point but that point is nowhere near what you want or need then a less "efficient" engine or the same engine burning 3 gph while doing what you need or want is a no brainer in my book.
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Old 05-13-2013, 09:29 AM   #60
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I would like to think a buck a gallon diesel is on the way , after we change rulers.

CLEAN SWEEP is real change.
That cracks me up... dollar a gallon diesel ISN'T EVER GOING TO HAPPEN

Keep dreaming..
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