John Deere "Right to Repair" Tractors

[BruceK]

Saw this in a local News feed. If it applies to tractors it could apply to Deere engines generally. I don`t own one and don`t recall anyone on TF raising concerns about it, but it could be of interest:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2...armers-the-right-to-repair-tractors/101839884

 

[Insequent]

I have 2 JD engines, but being based in a capital city where there is good dealer support the "right to repair" isn't a big deal for me. But if I were in a remote location, or making extended voyages to remote locations then it would be important.

Some TF members have opted not to install JD's in new builds because of similar issues. The biggie being not allowed to purchase and carry a spare engine ECU.

 

[Irish Rover]

The right to repair has been a legal requirement in the European Union since 2013. The EU is leading the way in outlawing this type of anti consumer closed shop practices. New rules requiring all manufacturers to have a common USB to C charging cable for phones, tablets etc by 2024 are a game changer - it's still not clear if Apple will follow suit in the USA or will wait until they're forced kicking and screaming to do it. US authorities have huge clout. They need to wield it for the benefit of consumers.

 

[Jeff F]

I have a 2005 JD4045TFM75 I recently replaced the injection pump and ECU. Cdn$6,500 and not easy to resolve.

Here's a case where corporate control blocks aftermarket support. Deere and Standyne agreed on a communications protocol to allow the ECU to control a metering valve in the IP. Injection shops require specialized software to calibrate the meter. Standyne licences the software for $50k. So a handful of rebuilders do a good business shipping out rebuilds as the solution to any suspected pump problems. I'm sure many of the returns suffer from trivial problems.

The ECM is the same story. Deere has a lock on it. No third party repair, testing or diagnosis available. Replacement cost is about the same as a couple of decent laptops.

Maybe that's an ok support model for some, but it bothers me a bit.

Edit: I should add that it's not just the cost I object to. I had several mechanics aboard and went through several unsupportive agricultural dealers before resolving the problem. As I said, not easy.

 

[O C Diver]

I have the same John Deere 4045TFM75, although vintage 2013. It's been essentially flawless after 5,000 hours (touch wood). I've done everything I can to make the engine room a more hospitable environment (lowering the temperature) and keeping the fuel immaculate and adding a lubricant.

Had a long talk with my John Deere dealer before purchasing the engine, regarding the electronically controlled fuel pump and ECM. My takeaway was that they are inherently solid pieces of equipment with occasional failures. For the amount of engines they've sold into commercial applications (farming, logging, construction, etc.), JD would be out of business if they weren't very reliable.

So I do everything I can to maintain optimal use parameters and have an insurance plan that covers failures as opposed to normal wear.

So far so good.

Regarding the Right to Repair, I'm not sure I see this as different than a patent on a new drug from a pharmaceutical company. You spend millions on developing a new fuel control system to meet a government imposed environmental emissions standard and a Chinese company makes a cheap copy that sells for less than half the price. In this case it may be aftermarket companies taking business away from the manufacturer or their dealerships. Nobody likes to pay exorbitant prices, but I also want JD and their dealerships to stay in business so I'm not stuck buying absolute POS parts from China.

Ted

 

[FWT]

Farm equipment is the real bread and butter for them followed by construction equipment.

I grew up in a farming community and over Christmas had dinner with an old friend who farms significant acreage. He has a barn full of Deere equipment. He would love to get rid of it all, over service, parts availability, and parts costs. But he can't. Deere technology has the others beat and that goes way past engines.

He says in the old days a decade or two ago a breakdown meant being out of action for a half day or day. Now its 3-10 days. When you are trying to hit weather windows to get a crop in the ground or out of the field the time might mean some serious money.

He gave an example of a piece of non-essential gear that was 3 years old, and a hydraulic pump died. Its a custom Deere pump. Deere wanted an outrageous price for a new one, about one third the value of the total piece of equipment. On a 3 year old piece of equipment. Since its not essential gear, he told them to stuff it and in spare time has been trying to find an alternative solution. His take is on this gear, he'll scrap it before paying the extortion and go with any other brand for this, on principle.

People rail against Volvo for similar issues, and its similar. But in the end if the Volvos make sense go ahead and hope for the best. Just keep the eyes open as you do.

Right to repair is a huge part of the issue, but not the only piece. You still have to source the parts, get delivery, and pay the price. But right to repair is a start.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
A somewhat similar issue is the way Tesla "issues" it's options. As I understand it you pay for an option (self driving, perhaps) and Tesla can remotely turn it on or off. A case arose where someone bought a used Tesla with an option on the car and a few weeks later lost the use of it because in spite of the fact he had paid the dealer for the car he didn't pay Tesla. Tesla argued they owned the software and could do with it what they wanted.

 

[Shrew]

Regarding the Right to Repair, I'm not sure I see this as different than a patent on a new drug from a pharmaceutical company. You spend millions on developing a new fuel control system to meet a government imposed environmental emissions standard and a Chinese company makes a cheap copy that sells for less than half the price.

I don't believe this has anything to do with copywrite infringement. Anyone could buy a JD engine and have a couple of engineers 'reverse engineer' it.

This is about maintaining a monopoly of sorts, by only allowing work to be done exclusively by their network of JD dealerships and certified mechanics. Remember that to be a certified JD mechanic you have to go through THEIR education program (for a large fee). Purchase their manuals (large fee), purchase their software (large recurring fee), and their proprietary interfaces.

Regarding their proprietary software, that is the gift that keeps on taking. These usually require a subscription, or regular purchase of 'updates'. To maintain certification you need to keep paying to go back to seminars when new models are released.

A mechanic tries to stay certified in Mercury, Mercruiser, Yamaha, and Suzuki (he does a lot of outboards). He tells me the classes, software and 'dongles' kill him.

Even the dealers tend to only have one or two guys actually up to date on the certifications.

 

[boatnbump]

Everything here in Mexico is like this. Cars and motor cycles. You can't even change your own oil or it voids the warranty. I was reading the book for my new truck and it says you have to take it to a certified GM dealer for collision work. The big pain is the ass is there is no customer service here. To get the oil changed you need to leave the car for the whole day. It took them 4 days to diagnose a bad A/C compressor. Then 3 days to install it after they received the new one.

 

[Portage_Bay]

A big part of what is going on is extracting more $$$ from the end user. Search something like "Everything you own will be a subscription" and you will see where it's all headed.

 

[Lepke]

I use to farm. Fixing your own equipment is a big deal. Hopefully this "right to repair" will eventually work it's way into all products sold in America.
For JD farm products, this has been about a 20 year fight.
I farmed in Tillamook, Oregon. The closest JD dealer was in the central valley. That meant hauling equipment over the coast range and back. Usually 2 round trips.
I've learned my lesson on computer controlled equipment and propriety software. I'm old enough that old, mechanically controlled engines and equipment will do for the rest of my time. On the ocean reliability means more to me than economy. And I could care less about the Chicken Littles of the world.

 

[O C Diver]

I don't believe this has anything to do with copywrite infringement. Anyone could buy a JD engine and have a couple of engineers 'reverse engineer' it.

This is about maintaining a monopoly of sorts, by only allowing work to be done exclusively by their network of JD dealerships and certified mechanics. Remember that to be a certified JD mechanic you have to go through THEIR education program (for a large fee). Purchase their manuals (large fee), purchase their software (large recurring fee), and their proprietary interfaces.

Regarding their proprietary software, that is the gift that keeps on taking. These usually require a subscription, or regular purchase of 'updates'. To maintain certification you need to keep paying to go back to seminars when new models are released.

I think you're mistaken. JD isn’t preventing anyone from working on their equipment, they're not facilitating it. Should they be required to train people who aren't going to be working at their dealerships? Should they be required to sell parts at the same wholesale cost to other repair shops? Should they be required to warranty parts improperly installed through unauthorized facilities? With the exception of the electronic components, what is it that can't be done by a quality mechanic?

The dealership I do business with has sold me any and every part I have wanted. If I need to purchase an ECM, I imagine that may need to be programed to my engine. For what the part costs, I'm pretty sure I want the warranty on the part and install. But then I asked about this before purchasing the engine.

If you don't like how their service works, don't buy the product.

Ted

 

[psneeld]

Not sure I am seeing under warranty and past warranty discussion.

For software, it is similar to buying factory or after market repair manuals.

 

[mvweebles]

..... Should they be required to train people who aren't going to be working at their dealerships? Should they be required to sell parts at the same wholesale cost to other repair shops? Should they be required to warranty parts improperly installed through unauthorized facilities? With the exception of the electronic components, what is it that can't be done by a quality mechanic?

Here's a bit more information - agreement just means that Deere will have a program to allow third party repair facilities to provide services...for a fee.

https://www.wired.com/story/right-to-repair-advocates-question-john-deeres-new-promises/

Deere’s new agreement states that it will ensure that farmers and independent repair shops can subscribe to or buy tools, software, and documentation from the company or its authorized repair facilities “on fair and reasonable terms.” The tractor giant also says it will ensure that any farmer, independent technician, or independent repair facility will have electronic access to Deere’s Customer Service Advisor, a digital database of operator and technical manuals that’s available for a fee.​

Ted - if I understand the article correctly, Deere is preventing owners from working on their equipment. There are apparently software triggers that 'brick' the tractor. It cannot be reset except by a Deere factory tech.

BTW - appears this is 100% a software issue, not a hardware issue. I'd also note that for farmers, there are not many options these days. Deere has something like 60% of the US market.

Peter

 

[bowball]

With my BMW I can’t replace the battery without it being coded to the car, which means an authorized bmw service center with the appropriate computer needs to do it. These seem to be anti competitive measures thinly veiled with some justification.

 

[rslifkin]

With my BMW I can’t replace the battery without it being coded to the car, which means an authorized bmw service center with the appropriate computer needs to do it. These seem to be anti competitive measures thinly veiled with some justification.

That has become more common on newer cars due to fancier charging systems where it may trash the new battery if it doesn't know what type of battery it is (being that there may be multiple options that fit).

In many cases for things like that, there are software tools (either OEM or otherwise) available that will let you talk to the computer and accomplish functions like that (as well as interrogate fault codes and other useful functions).

In my mind, the big difference is whether I can get my hands on the tools (and service manuals) needed to work on the thing. Deere has been very tight about that for a lot of things, and you can't buy the software at any price (or even an aftermarket one that only does some of the more common things). Whereas for most cars, you can get the service manual and at least aftermarket software tools if you want to buy them.

 

[KnotYet]

With my BMW I can’t replace the battery without it being coded to the car, which means an authorized bmw service center with the appropriate computer needs to do it. These seem to be anti competitive measures thinly veiled with some justification.

Our 2018 Mini Countryman needed a battery last year - pretty typical 5 year life.
It is based on the BMW X1 - mechanical twins. After some shopping around, the
dealership was competitive enough that buying the battery from them was a wash. I
already had the battery out so I took it to the dealership and traded it in on a new one.
I was able to have them update the coding at a later visit (if they even needed to).
My takeaway is that they try to compete on items that are easily bought elsewhere.

 

[Jeff F]

Ted - if I understand the article correctly, Deere is preventing owners from working on their equipment.

Not just owners, but independent repair shops as well. I had a chat about this with the local injection shop. These guys have Standyne certificates all over the walls, and could tear down the pump and get parts. But they can't do anything with the DE10 pump used by Deere because they lack the software tool to do the final calibration and testing. The only service he can offer is sourcing a fully rebuilt unit through Standyne Canada.

 

[O C Diver]

With my BMW I can’t replace the battery without it being coded to the car, which means an authorized bmw service center with the appropriate computer needs to do it. These seem to be anti competitive measures thinly veiled with some justification.

Friend of mine went through the same same issue a few years ago. Believe it or not, for his model, there was a YouTube video on how to code the battery to the car. No computer interface required. It was turning on and off certain electrical devices (headlights, wipers, etc) in a specific order to field code the battery to the car.

Ted

 

[O C Diver]

Here's a bit more information - agreement just means that Deere will have a program to allow third party repair facilities to provide services...for a fee.

https://www.wired.com/story/right-to-repair-advocates-question-john-deeres-new-promises/

Deere’s new agreement states that it will ensure that farmers and independent repair shops can subscribe to or buy tools, software, and documentation from the company or its authorized repair facilities “on fair and reasonable terms.” The tractor giant also says it will ensure that any farmer, independent technician, or independent repair facility will have electronic access to Deere’s Customer Service Advisor, a digital database of operator and technical manuals that’s available for a fee.​

Ted - if I understand the article correctly, Deere is preventing owners from working on their equipment. There are apparently software triggers that 'brick' the tractor. It cannot be reset except by a Deere factory tech.

BTW - appears this is 100% a software issue, not a hardware issue. I'd also note that for farmers, there are not many options these days. Deere has something like 60% of the US market.

Peter

I'm not saying it's right, but what percentage of tractor repair is electronics? Are you saying an oil and filter change on the engine shuts it down?

Ted

 

[mvweebles]

I'm not saying it's right, but what percentage of tractor repair is electronics? Are you saying an oil and filter change on the engine shuts it down?

Ted

I'm not saying anything, just following with interest. Not being well versed in these things, I can only speculate that a lot of what a tractor does relies on timing and sequence so electronics plays a huge role. To be clear, Deere makes the entire tractor, not just the engine - big difference compared to boats. Depending on how broad they ringfence their domain, it could really handcuff an operator for fear of bricking the entire tractor. It's possible/probable the engine is the most reliable part of the tractor.

Interesting topic. I didn't need more motivation but I won't be upgrading my old Perkins 4.236 anytime soon. I believe the newer engines are more reliable and efficient. But I'm intimidated by them. Fixability is important to me. My mechanic skills are decent but not great.

Peter

 

[heysteve]

Interesting topic. I didn't need more motivation but I won't be upgrading my old Perkins 4.236 anytime soon. I believe the newer engines are more reliable and efficient. But I'm intimidated by them. Fixability is important to me. My mechanic skills are decent but not great.

The new engines are certainly more efficient... but are they more reliable than our old mechanical engines? Lots of technology involved in producing less emissions and more mpg. I'd imagine there's much more to go wrong but I don't have much experience with the newer engines.

 

[O C Diver]

I'm not saying anything, just following with interest. Not being well versed in these things, I can only speculate that a lot of what a tractor does relies on timing and sequence so electronics plays a huge role. To be clear, Deere makes the entire tractor, not just the engine - big difference compared to boats. Depending on how broad they ringfence their domain, it could really handcuff an operator for fear of bricking the entire tractor. It's possible/probable the engine is the most reliable part of the tractor.

Peter,
I lived on Delmarva for 30 years. The land of AG where JD is king. Most of the attachments on tractors are plug and play where you just swap the disc harrow for the planter and keep on getting it done. In September they put the corn harvester on the combine and then switch to the soybean head in late October. Most of the farms are running 24/7 to get the seed in the ground or harvest the crops.

The production farms keep their equipment less than 5 trouble free years replacing wear parts and PM stuff. Many find it simpler to have a PM contract with the dealership, a known fixed cost on their business spreadsheet. From experience, they know they can't afford to be down for days or weeks. They sell or trade in their equipment because they know downtime and major repairs cost to much. This is no different than a 1st tier rental car company. Do basic simple preventitive maintenance and sell before you need to buy expensive parts and have extensive downtime.

I would imagine a lot or the issues being discussed are on the older equipment (6 to 20 years) from smaller farms which may be buying used equipment. Don't get me wrong, I'm very sympathetic to the small farmer and family farms. The unfortunate reality is that the complexity of electronic engines is past the skill set of the average farmer. This is no different than the old man that buys used cars and expects to be able to rebuild the carburetor. One day he finds multi port fuel injection under the hood of his latest car, and realizes he hasn't a clue.

Now one can argue that the independent repair facilities should be able to get parts, tools, and the computer programming and diagnostic equipment. The unfortunate sad reality is that when cars, trucks, and farm tractors went to electronic engines, the serviceable life expectancy took a nose dive. The days of an International Harvester tractor lasting 40 years are over.

Ted

 

[mvweebles]

The new engines are certainly more efficient... but are they more reliable than our old mechanical engines? Lots of technology involved in producing less emissions and more mpg. I'd imagine there's much more to go wrong but I don't have much experience with the newer engines.

Nothing empiracal, but I suspect the newer engines are a LOT more reliable than the ancient ones. My first car was a 1976 Chevy Caprice that I bought from a friend's dad. Back then, high-mileage was 100K. Heck, most car odometers rolled-over at 99,999 miles.

I put around 150k miles on a 1972 BMW R75/5 motorcycle. And I spent a lot of time adjust valves and several maintenance items. Lot of miles. Lot of maintenance. I'm good with that, and plenty reliable as long as I was willing to spend time during my morning coffee adjusting valves.

Detroit Diesels are legendary for many reasons. Some good, some bad. They can be long lived but require some looking after. I'm not a DD guy, but I could be - happy to trade-off simplicity. Lepke posted up-thread this exact sentiment.

A good friend has an Audi A6 diesel (I think it's an A6). He's had it 8 years or so, probably has 150k miles on it or more. He drives it like he stole it. Runs like a champ. Far cry from the Mercedes 300D's of yester-year.

The new engines are great engines. I am an old-school guy because my DNA is hard-wired that way. But I'm okay saying its more about me than a deficiency of new-school technology. There are only a few detriments to new engines - fix-ability being high on my list. But engines keep getting better. No arguing that. They're just not for me.

Peter

 

[rslifkin]

I would imagine a lot or the issues being discussed are on the older equipment (6 to 20 years) from smaller farms which may be buying used equipment. Don't get me wrong, I'm very sympathetic to the small farmer and family farms. The unfortunate reality is that the complexity of electronic engines is past the skill set of the average farmer. This is no different than the old man that buys used cars and expects to be able to rebuild the carburetor. One day he finds multi port fuel injection under the hood of his latest car, and realizes he hasn't a clue.

Now one can argue that the independent repair facilities should be able to get parts, tools, and the computer programming and diagnostic equipment. The unfortunate sad reality is that when cars, trucks, and farm tractors went to electronic engines, the serviceable life expectancy took a nose dive. The days of an International Harvester tractor lasting 40 years are over.

Ted

If the software and appropriate service documentation is available, a lot of the complicated stuff isn't really that bad to work on. The biggest thing is that you need to accept that reading the book and following the troubleshooting flows, part replacement instructions, etc. may be an absolute necessity.

Within the realm of cars I've obtained the tools for, I can't say I've ever had an issue that stumped me. Just ones that took a little time to figure out and required reading through the documentation carefully, as you couldn't just go in blind and figure it out (at least not without a good understanding of the systems). But with the information available, the ability to trigger diagnostic routines on the computer and ask it what hurts, etc. it's usually not too bad to figure out what's wrong.

 

[O C Diver]

If the software and appropriate service documentation is available, a lot of the complicated stuff isn't really that bad to work on. The biggest thing is that you need to accept that reading the book and following the troubleshooting flows, part replacement instructions, etc. may be an absolute necessity.

Within the realm of cars I've obtained the tools for, I can't say I've ever had an issue that stumped me. Just ones that took a little time to figure out and required reading through the documentation carefully, as you couldn't just go in blind and figure it out (at least not without a good understanding of the systems). But with the information available, the ability to trigger diagnostic routines on the computer and ask it what hurts, etc. it's usually not too bad to figure out what's wrong.

Ever worked on a high pressure common rail diesel? Ever worked on a diesel with a computer controlled regeneration system for exhaust emissions? Friend of mine runs a large Komatsu track hoe with a high pressure common rail diesel and regeneration system. When the regeneration system locks up, the factory trained mechanics from the dealership have a hard time diagnosing the problem. It becomes a part swapping exercise to see what makes the computer happy. Last time it cost 5 figures over a 2 week period and ended up replacing the turbo. This is a piece of construction equipment, not an over the road truck. I pity the farmer when this evolution of equipment is all he can buy on the used market.

Ted

 

[Lepke]

JD is leasing a diagnostic tool for $3000+/yr.

Farm equipment for high output farms is not simple. Tractors cross fields by GPS, placing fertilizer where it's needed and less or none where it isn't. Farmers do grid samples of field fertility and software creates a map. Also diesel farm engines have emission controls just like trucks will all the sensor problems cars and trucks have. Combines can change settings depending on field and crop conditions and then generate a map of crop yields. All software and sensor driven. When something fails, the equipment either doesn't run or doesn't run right. There are only a few days that are prime for harvesting most crops.

Your computers can upgrade their software when needed over the internet. Farmers can't do that. They have to pay a JD tech to come to the farm and do the up grade, even if it's a flaw in the original software. In the mean time their equipment isn't doing it's job. And we're talking tractors that start at 1/4 mil, and combines that start at a half mil.

The people I know with commercial boats that run days and weeks w/o stopping, travel with lots of spares. Much like I do with my diesel truck. Newer electronic engines are better than older ones, but not reliable as a mechanical engine. What Chicken Little doesn't get is it doesn't matter how much better mileage or how much cleaner the emissions if your engine doesn't run.

 

[Jeff F]

Your computers can upgrade their software when needed over the internet. Farmers can't do that. They have to pay a JD tech to come to the farm and do the up grade, even if it's a flaw in the original software. In the mean time their equipment isn't doing it's job. And we're talking tractors that start at 1/4 mil, and combines that start at a half mil.

I see that as being entirely JD's decision. I have any number of devices that offer free updated firmware that can be updated by the user. There is nothing preventing Deere from offering that capability.

My ECM firmware was a couple of versions out of date. When I was struggling to resolve an intermittent problem the options for resolving were a) pay the dealer close to $1k to update the firmware, with no guarantee of success, or b) pay the dealer close to $3k to replace the module, with no guarantee of success. There didn't appear to be any other options, so I chose option B.

 

[Deano]

One positive for JD is parts support. I have a 1958 JD 420 utility tractor and any part I’ve ever needed is still available from them.

 

[Cold Duck]

I would add beware of MTU engines. Even old tech engines if parts not in stock at dealers, you have to order from Germany. They wait and fill a container then ship it to primary dealer (I think in Mn) who then distributes to all the other dealers. Now if you stuck down in the Caribbean at some remote Island and need some gasket to get going, you are going to have to wait until all this shipping from Germany gets your gasket to the dealer in Ft Lauderdale then they can airmail it to you. And don't need anything in August because the entire company shuts down for the month, no orders, no shipping. Don't try to call the company and have your gasket FedEx'd direct to your boat as it must go the normal slow route. Forget about getting info on repairs. They would not tell me how to time the fuel pump (had two engines 100 ser #s apart and they timed differently), they told me that all 5 of the 4 bolt mains had to tighten all bolts at the same time. Great if you in Germany factory with special tools. This comes from experience. Beautifully engineered engines but I would never have another.