Hybrid electric drive

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lpedleur

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Hello everybody, i don't own a boat yet but some friends of mine are pushing me to buy my own and enjoy summer with them. I've read some post about repowering from diesel engine to electric. What are your thoughts about using the parts from a chevy Volt, battery pack, engine and generator.

These parts are pretty cheap at a salvage yard. The electric motor ( 11 Kw ) is sufficient to move a 3800 pounds car at hwy speed, i know that a trawler is way more heavier than this, but all it has to do is spin the props... Generator is rated at 50 Kw or so making it big enough to drive the electric motor when the battery pack comes too weak and even recharge it.

I'm looking for a 30-40' trawler with a dead or old engine. It could be a way to cut the operating cost of the trawler since that engine runs on fumes and solar panels + windmill could help with the battery recharge. What do you think ? Thank's for your insights.
 
Not ready for prime time just yet, just not as efficient or effective as s diesel

Except within a very narrow performance window
 
Bienvenue à bord!
Interesting subject, impatient to see the comments

L
 
Hello everybody, i don't own a boat yet but some friends of mine are pushing me to buy my own and enjoy summer with them. I've read some post about repowering from diesel engine to electric.


Welcome aboard.

If it helps, there are several threads here and on cruisersforum.com (sister site) about electric drives of various sorts. You could do a search on those and find discussions about pros/cons, hurdles and impediments, etc.

The short version seems to be they could work, in specific boats for specific missions under specific circumstances... but that for any sort of long-ish distances there are are several extra issues to consider at the same time (battery type/chemistry, solar and/or wind-generator augmentation, charge controllers and battery management systems, sail augmentation, etc.

There are also discussions about the green-ness (?) or lack thereof, one thread being about how electric propulsion mostly shifts original pollution sources away from the end-user back to some electricity producers... but maybe doesn't really reduce or eliminate whole-earth greenhouse gasses and etc. very much (some would say, if any).

Note that cars can coast, and regenerate electricity. Much heavier powerboats (your example) never really coast over distances, and powerboats can't really regenerate (as perhaps a sailing vessel could under certain circumstances).

-Chris
 
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Actually, I haven't yet seen any discussion on using an electric car drivetrain to repower a boat. Perhaps it could even make financial sense. (although that is rare for any boat project)

When I looked at options for re-powering my boat and replacing the fuel tanks, I considered going electric. The total cost of parts for the conversion (motor, batteries, charging system) was $32,000 A new diesel engine plus new fuel tanks was $14,000. I'm still filling up with diesel.
 
Actually, I haven't yet seen any discussion on using an electric car drivetrain to repower a boat. Perhaps it could even make financial sense. (although that is rare for any boat project)

When I looked at options for re-powering my boat and replacing the fuel tanks, I considered going electric. The total cost of parts for the conversion (motor, batteries, charging system) was $32,000 A new diesel engine plus new fuel tanks was $14,000. I'm still filling up with diesel.
Wow 32K... in my non engineer head, i would have used a wrecked Volt, they sell for around 8000$ (assuming that the parts needed are still ok) and just add labor. But as you said, it may be cheaper to put diesel in it.
 
PassageMaker Magazine had several articles about diesel over electric some time back. A company installed electric motors in a trawler with diesel generators. It looked good, but the idea seemed to die. It was not cheaper than diesel engines if I remember. The torque from a properly sized electrie motor is incredible at very low RPMs. That facilitated low speed handling.
 
The problem with diesel electric (diesel engine drives generator, generator powers electric motor that drives prop) is that right from the get go, you have a 20% or so power loss compared to a diesel directly driving a prop. That's because the generator has power losses, and the electric motor has losses. If you also charge and then discharge a battery, you lose another 10% or so. These are rough numbers, but not too far off, and serve to make the point.

Given this, you might ask why anyone would ever consider hybrid propulsion, and it is indeed a good question. The physics just don't support it in any way.

The simplistic, and incorrect argument is that if a hybrid is more efficient in a car, it must also be more efficient in a boat. This leap of logic fails to recognize WHY a hybrid works well in a car. A car's engine puts out a bunch of energy to bring the car up to speed, converting the engine energy into momentum of the car. But then the car mostly glides and much less energy is required to maintain speed. When you put on the brakes and stop the car, all the energy in the car's momentum is turned into heat by the breaks and thrown away. With a hybrid, the car is slowed down by placing a generator load on the wheels and instead of turning all the stored momentum energy into heat, a big chunk of it gets turned back into electric power stored in the battery and usable again later own.

None of this happens with a boat. It takes a constant, large amount of energy to move the boat. There is little to no stored momentum energy, and water friction stops the boat in short order when you remove the engine power. There is no energy to recover since it's all taken by the sea.

One argument in favor of a hybrid system is that it lets you run the diesel at it's most efficient power point. This might be possible, and could run the engine at perhaps 15% better fuel efficiency. With that, you might be back to break even, but most likely you will still be running at reduced efficiency compared to direct drive.


People also point at large cruise ships and tugs that have diesel electric drives as proof of efficiency. But it isn't really. In these applications the diesel electric provides more of a benefit as a transmission than efficiency. It's the same reason why diesel electric is favored for train locomotives.

But for boats, it really doesn't make any sense.
 
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A Chevy weights in at just over 3000lbs, a 40' trawler weights in at well over 30000lbs.
that Chevy power-train will have a very hard time just getting the trawler to move.
 
It's the same reason why diesel electric is favored for train locomotives.

But for boats, it really doesn't make any sense.

In the past when a loco was breaking the energy from breaking was transformed in electric power that was "burnt" using resistors. They were calling these "toaster" as i was really like a toaster on top of the loco and if by any luck a bird was there it would have been grilled in few seconds.
Nowadays this energy is put back in batteries for reuse instead of being just burnt.

I may be wrong but the benefit of diesel electric is more for long runs where the engine will always run at optimal rpm for a long period of time, what is the trawler type of usage. With this setup you do not run an engine for the screw but you provide electric energy that is used for propulsion as well as onboard systems.
The point (I think) is that, even if you have some lost in energy transformation between thermal to electric to mechanic, usually engine power required to produce power is less than engine power required to direct turn your screw.

But hey I am not an expert :)

L.
 
I think Twistedtree nailed it.

I would add that fuel cost is one of the least significant expenses of boat ownership and operation for most of us. (Mores the pity.)
 
But for boats, it really doesn't make any sense.

It doesn't make sense if the only consideration is saving money.

But consider a boat with a bunch of solar, a bunch of LiPO batteries, and a parallel hybrid system:

Household appliances with no worries about electric usage
No generator necessary
No shore power necessary
Redundancy (get home on solar)
Charge the batteries (when solar doesn't get it done) in a short time
Quiet and fume-free when using electric propulsion (canals)
Lots of torque at 1 rpm using electric propulsion (docking)
Diesel power when you need it

Does it save money? Who cares.
 
A Chevy weights in at just over 3000lbs, a 40' trawler weights in at well over 30000lbs.
that Chevy power-train will have a very hard time just getting the trawler to move.

The Volt electric motors produce about 150 hp and 270 ft-lbs of torque. That should get it done.
 
The Volt has a gasoline engine. Gasoline fumes are potentially explosive, so you would need spark proof elec equipment, and extra engine room ventilation.
 
Putting the money aspect aside several years ago. , most diesel electric concepts involve quite a bit more complexity and components than a conventional diesel drive. I understand wanting to be "green" or out front with technology, but then reality raises head.

There is a magazine and 2 shows a year dedicated to Hybrid Propulsion. Its a trade show and all the companies involved in the emerging technology are there as well as many technical presentations by some pretty smart people. Europe is way ahead of the US in this technology, they also have much higher fuel costs and the performance envelope of many of their vessels fit in the narrow range where the current technology works.

Home | Electric & Hybrid Marine World Expo 2018

There are also several boat manufacturers that are making hybrid boats. Greenline in Europe, Elco and Duffy here in the US. There have also been several experiments by production builders like the Lagoon Sailing Catamarans several years ago. This technology actually makes more sense for a sailboat than a powerboat at this time. I believe all but one of the experimental Lagoons was repowered conventional.

https://www.greenlinehybridusa.com/new-yachts/greenline-40-hybrid-info/

You can buy, make, develop, cobble together a Hybrid drive trawler, but the only upside at this time in technology development seems to be bragging rights. Range, speed, complexity, cost, maintenance, etc. are all reasons not to.......just yet.

:socool:


It doesn't make sense if the only consideration is saving money.

But consider a boat with a bunch of solar, a bunch of LiPO batteries, and a parallel hybrid system:

Household appliances with no worries about electric usage
No generator necessary
No shore power necessary
Redundancy (get home on solar)
Charge the batteries (when solar doesn't get it done) in a short time
Quiet and fume-free when using electric propulsion (canals)
Lots of torque at 1 rpm using electric propulsion (docking)
Diesel power when you need it

Does it save money? Who cares.
 
There used to be a TF poster named Rueben Trane of Florida Bay Coaster fame and also president of Island Pilot. One day he set out to build a hybrid electric drive boat called the called the 2009 DSE 12M Hybrid that was literally covered with 6KW of solar panels. Through batteries and solar panels, she would do 25NM per day on electric power. She was powered by two Steyr 75HP/7KW diesel/electric hybrid engines.

I first came across the boat about 4 years ago on Yachtworld as it was for sale and may have been for sale for some time. Today, it is still for sale. The point here is buyers haven't been swept off their feet by electric boats and if you do this conversion, you may have a hard time getting rid of it when the day comes.

If you want to view the boat, go to YW and do a search on Island Pilot.
 
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There have also been several experiments by production builders like the Lagoon Sailing Catamarans several years ago. This technology actually makes more sense for a sailboat than a powerboat at this time. I believe all but one of the experimental Lagoons was repowered conventional.


You can buy, make, develop, cobble together a Hybrid drive trawler, but the only upside at this time in technology development seems to be bragging rights. Range, speed, complexity, cost, maintenance, etc. are all reasons not to.......just yet.

:socool:

The Lagoon 420 was an unmitigated disaster! Yes, they were basically all retrofitted with diesel drive systems. Unfortunately. I tried finding one with the electric systems only. my plan was to fit a proper diesel in one hull to shaft drive a prop, but also have a generator on it that would drive the electric motor driven prop in the second hull. A cat with just one diesel would be a plus. A lot of cat sailors just run one engine, but that is not ideal.

I had a dock neighbour with a Lagoon 420 a couple or years ago, and his view was 'the drive system is perfect, the problem is the charging system'. He wasn't a tech kinda guy, just didn't get it. Even with oversized gennies for a sailboat (18kw or more) it just wasn't gonna cut the mustard. Even for a sailing boat of modest size battery capacity is way short of what is required for anything apart from harbour manoeuvres and docking. I still struggle to believe Lagoon actually advertised, produced and sold the things! I can'r imagine that the engineers involved are still employed by Lagoon!

Hybrid boats that work at present are day/picnic boats for rivers and small lakes. Nothing wrong with that.
 
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There are also several boat manufacturers that are making hybrid boats. Greenline in Europe, Elco and Duffy here in the US. There have also been several experiments by production builders like the Lagoon Sailing Catamarans several years ago. This technology actually makes more sense for a sailboat than a powerboat at this time. I believe all but one of the experimental Lagoons was repowered conventional.

:socool:

Greenline claims to have built hundreds of boats. How many have the full electric propulsion package is not clear, but most of the used boats available on Yachtworld, for instance, seem to have it.
 
In the past when a loco was breaking the energy from breaking was transformed in electric power that was "burnt" using resistors. They were calling these "toaster" as i was really like a toaster on top of the loco and if by any luck a bird was there it would have been grilled in few seconds.
Nowadays this energy is put back in batteries for reuse instead of being just burnt.

Those are also referred to as Dynamic Brakes

The point (I think) is that, even if you have some lost in energy transformation between thermal to electric to mechanic, usually engine power required to produce power is less than engine power required to direct turn your screw.

But hey I am not an expert :)

L.

But that's exactly the point. It will always take more diesel power to turn the same screw the same speed with a diesel electric as compared to direct drive. It's a basic law of physics.
 
It doesn't make sense if the only consideration is saving money.

But consider a boat with a bunch of solar, a bunch of LiPO batteries, and a parallel hybrid system:

Household appliances with no worries about electric usage
No generator necessary
No shore power necessary
Redundancy (get home on solar)
Charge the batteries (when solar doesn't get it done) in a short time
Quiet and fume-free when using electric propulsion (canals)
Lots of torque at 1 rpm using electric propulsion (docking)
Diesel power when you need it

Does it save money? Who cares.

I think there are two points in response to this.

First is that you are describing a number of what I would call life-style features, and I don't mean that in any negative way. They increase your enjoyment of the boat, and that's the primary goal, not efficiency. And in some cases there are efficiency gains as well. Solar, for example, to offset generator run time, has both lifestyle and efficiency gains.

The second point is that when it comes to propulsion, the numbers just don't add up. Very few boats can fit enough solar to cover their full house electric load. A few people here have come close, and one or two have completely pulled it off. But they are the exception, not the rule. There just isn't enough space on the typical boat, compared to the power loads.

And that's just for house loads, which are a tiny fraction of propulsion loads. Even if you have space for say 2kw of solar, that will yield about 10kwh of power harvested per day. Let's assume you use half of it for house loads, leaving 5kwh left over for propulsion.

A typical trawler might operate with 50kw (about 75hp) of engine output for normal cruise. That will consume your 5kwh of remaining power in 6 minutes. For reverence, the Chevy Volt motor mentioned in the original post is 111kw, so twice the power of my example, and half the run time at full load.

The Chevy Volt battery pack is 17kwh. With the 50kw cruise example, the battery would be drained in 20 minutes. That means the diesel gets started up pretty much right away, and the solar is pretty much useless for propulsion.

To put this in perspective, a gallon of diesel contains 38kwh of raw energy. That has to get converted into usable energy by the engine, and it does so at about 25% efficiency, so each gallon of diesel is equivalent to about 10kwh of stored battery power. That means the volt battery pack hold the equivalent of about 1.7 gal of diesel.

Let's look at it another way. Say you trawler holds 400 gal of diesel. That's 4000kwh of stored, usable power. Now let's pretend we have a magical battery pack that can store 4000kwh of energy, and see how long it will take for the previously mentioned 2kw solar system to charge the batteries. With 100% of the solar output charging the battery, it will take 400 days (yes, that's over a year) to charge the batteries. Another way to look at it is that a 2kw solar array makes diesel at about 1 gal per day.

With all this in mind, you might wonder how the various hybrid boats are working out, and the answer is not very well. If you look closely at all of them, they operate at very slow speeds when on electric drive - on the order of 3-4 kts. That's like running around with a 15hp outboard pushing your trawler, and at that speed you can run long enough to not be a total embarrassment. If you want to operate like that, then it might work and you can enjoy a quiet ride. But if you want to run a trawler in any sort of typical operation, electric drives just don't make any sense and you are much better off with a simpler, less expensive, and more efficient gear drive.
 
It sounds like a great way to make a small fortune (out of a large one).

The Volt motor is not designed to carry high constant torque loads and will need to be upgraded when it dies. The Volt batteries are tiny compared to the energy needs of a boat and will either need to be replaced with a correctly sized pack or you will need several Volt packs. If you intend the Volt gas engine to run whenever you are moving then you just have a boat with an inefficient gasoline engine that is wasting power by passing it through a generator, a battery and an electric motor, then through a marine transmission.

Good luck, I hope you have deep pockets and unlimited enthusiasm. I suggest that you get as much insurance as possible for an experimental boat since lithium battery fires are not unheard of with factory hybrid boats much less homemade projects. Google the recent hybrid boat fire in Germany: it ended with an explosion......
 
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The Volt electric motors produce about 150 hp and 270 ft-lbs of torque. That should get it done.

Indeed it will, for a few weeks..... This motor was designed and optimized for intermittent duty: momentary moderate power when acellerating and then very low power all the rest of the time at cruise on the highway. When asked to provide 50 to 80 % power for hours on end, which is typical marine usage, it will fail prematurely.
 
Indeed it will, for a few weeks..... This motor was designed and optimized for intermittent duty: momentary moderate power when acellerating and then very low power all the rest of the time at cruise on the highway. When asked to provide 50 to 80 % power for hours on end, which is typical marine usage, it will fail prematurely.
You have a point...
 
An electric boat. About 2 knots on a sunny day.
 

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Indeed it will, for a few weeks..... This motor was designed and optimized for intermittent duty: momentary moderate power when acellerating and then very low power all the rest of the time at cruise on the highway. When asked to provide 50 to 80 % power for hours on end, which is typical marine usage, it will fail prematurely.

That would match typical car power needs, but very different from a boat.
 
Greetings,
Along the same lines, my 1950 Chris Craft manual stated an automobile engine "worked" about 30% of the time it was running whereas a boat engine "worked" 90% of the time.
 
I think there are two points in response to this.

First is that you are describing a number of what I would call life-style features, and I don't mean that in any negative way. They increase your enjoyment of the boat, and that's the primary goal, not efficiency. And in some cases there are efficiency gains as well. Solar, for example, to offset generator run time, has both lifestyle and efficiency gains.

The second point is that when it comes to propulsion, the numbers just don't add up. Very few boats can fit enough solar to cover their full house electric load. A few people here have come close, and one or two have completely pulled it off. But they are the exception, not the rule. There just isn't enough space on the typical boat, compared to the power loads.

And that's just for house loads, which are a tiny fraction of propulsion loads. Even if you have space for say 2kw of solar, that will yield about 10kwh of power harvested per day. Let's assume you use half of it for house loads, leaving 5kwh left over for propulsion.

A typical trawler might operate with 50kw (about 75hp) of engine output for normal cruise. That will consume your 5kwh of remaining power in 6 minutes. For reverence, the Chevy Volt motor mentioned in the original post is 111kw, so twice the power of my example, and half the run time at full load.

The Chevy Volt battery pack is 17kwh. With the 50kw cruise example, the battery would be drained in 20 minutes. That means the diesel gets started up pretty much right away, and the solar is pretty much useless for propulsion.

To put this in perspective, a gallon of diesel contains 38kwh of raw energy. That has to get converted into usable energy by the engine, and it does so at about 25% efficiency, so each gallon of diesel is equivalent to about 10kwh of stored battery power. That means the volt battery pack hold the equivalent of about 1.7 gal of diesel.

Let's look at it another way. Say you trawler holds 400 gal of diesel. That's 4000kwh of stored, usable power. Now let's pretend we have a magical battery pack that can store 4000kwh of energy, and see how long it will take for the previously mentioned 2kw solar system to charge the batteries. With 100% of the solar output charging the battery, it will take 400 days (yes, that's over a year) to charge the batteries. Another way to look at it is that a 2kw solar array makes diesel at about 1 gal per day.

With all this in mind, you might wonder how the various hybrid boats are working out, and the answer is not very well. If you look closely at all of them, they operate at very slow speeds when on electric drive - on the order of 3-4 kts. That's like running around with a 15hp outboard pushing your trawler, and at that speed you can run long enough to not be a total embarrassment. If you want to operate like that, then it might work and you can enjoy a quiet ride. But if you want to run a trawler in any sort of typical operation, electric drives just don't make any sense and you are much better off with a simpler, less expensive, and more efficient gear drive.

Lifestyle features, that's right. But then you went back to the usual strawman arguments. Nobody serious is suggesting cruising at 20 knots with electric propulsion. And while solar is nice, and relatively cheap, it's not key. A Greenline 40', for instance, can be equipped with two 7kw motor/generators which will charge the 23 kwh of LiPO batteries in two hours. That's plenty for house loads, or to power the boat for 20 km at 4 kn.

There are 8,000 km of canals in France, and thousands more in Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, etc. A typical speed limit in a French canal is 10km/h. You can spend the rest of your life going from one quaint, history-filled town to the next. So, motor a little while, some solar, and quiet propulsion the rest of the day. The boat comes with a household fridge, dishwasher, washer/dryer, A/C, etc. What's not to like? Horses for courses.

If it's not already obvious, I'm considering a Greenline. But not because I'm trying to save money, and not because I'm trying to be green, and not because I'm trying to be holier than thou. It's strictly about the creature comforts.

I drive a Volt. I've had it more than 5 years, 100,000 miles plus. People say, "Let me explain how you're not really saving money." Yes, I know that. Don't care. "Well, let me explain how you're not really being green." Not sure I agree, but don't care one way or the other. "Well, let me explain how fast my Corvette can go." Don't care; the last time I drove 150 was never. Then why, you might ask? I'm tired of sending money to people who hate me.

I just don't get the visceral hatred of electric cars or boats.
 
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