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Old 01-13-2011, 02:36 PM   #21
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RE: Hybrid boats

"Many large mega yachts are hybrid, diesel electric."

Where did that idea come from? How many?
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Old 01-13-2011, 03:05 PM   #22
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RE: Hybrid boats

Were not*all subs during WWII diesel electric.

They would run on the surface under diesel to charge the batteries for submerged running*

Run silent run deep.

So kind of old technology.

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Old 01-13-2011, 03:19 PM   #23
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RE: Hybrid boats

Quote:
skipperdude wrote:



Were not*all subs during WWII diesel electric.

They would run on the surface under diesel to charge the batteries for submerged running*

Run silent run deep.

So kind of old technology.

SD
Of course the subs were diesel electric.* They ran under water on electric power.* Later the germans introduced a snorkel sub that would run on diesel submerged*without too much success.* The weren't what I would call hybrid power in the true sense.* I think the real diesel electric drives were on locomotives.* This was for getting extremely heavy loads moving.

However, I know absolutely nothing about MTUs.

*
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Old 01-13-2011, 03:24 PM   #24
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*

Were not*all subs during WWII diesel electric.

So kind of old technology.
The system is certainly*not new, but I would not say the technology today*is old.

In addition to pre-nuclear*submarines some larger vessels have been diesel electric.* For example there was a class of Washington State Ferry--- the largest class I believe--- that were diesel-electric.* Their propulsion systems, as I understand it, were identical to those used in diesel-electric railroad locomotives at the time.* I think the diesel-electric ferries are all retired now--- they were operating when I moved here in 1979.

I don't know that they did this for efficiency so much as for better control.* Today's Washjington State ferries are direct diesel drive*but with variable pitch props and computer management to provide the degree of control needed in a ferry.

But diesel-electric*technology itself has advanced.* Diesel engines can be made more efficient and I'm sure that electric motor technology has moved far beyond what was being done in the 30s, 40s, and 50s.

However there must be some inefficiencies in diesel-electric--- perhaps it's a matter of scale.* Because I believe that modern container ships, bulk carriers, tankers, etc. are all diesel powered (if they aren't steam turbine-powered).* For example the largest container ship in the world is powered by the largest diesel engine in the world.

But given the cost of the components I would think that converting a recreational cruiser like a GB or whatever from direct diesel to diesel electric would not be cost-effective.* A person may have other reasons for wanting to do it but in terms of the cost of the fuel the conversion might save vs. the cost of the conversion, there are probably no savings to be realized.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 13th of January 2011 04:25:46 PM
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Old 01-13-2011, 03:36 PM   #25
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RE: Hybrid boats

There have got to be some loss in diesel electrics.* Any time you convert from one form of energy to another there is some loss.* For a specific application for needed torque or smoothness I can see it working.* To me diesel electric is like the guy that came up with the single engine twin screw concept.* The worst of both worlds--------------two unprotected running gear and relying on a single engine.* Just didn't make sense to me.

Boats don't coast or brake so a flywheel would not work well for storing energy as would not a generator to run a charger.* Straight power seems the way to go on a boat.
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Old 01-13-2011, 03:43 PM   #26
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RE: Hybrid boats

Electric motors may be appropriate for ferry service, since they can be recharged easily and regularly.

electric ferry link Marseilles:

http://www.demotix.com/photo/241970/...rseilles241970

Japan:

http://www.handyshippingguide.com/sh...rry-launch_725
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Old 01-13-2011, 04:19 PM   #27
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RE: Hybrid boats

The Queen Mary 2 is Diesel Electric,

"As in most modern passenger ships, Queen Mary 2's propulsion machinery is electrically decoupled from her propellers and her propulsion arrangement can therefore be more accurately described as "CODAG electric" (by analogy with turbo-electric and diesel-electric). The diesel engines and gas turbines drive electrical generators, which provide the power to drive four 21,500*kW (28,800 hp) Alstom electrical motors located inside the podded propulsors (and thus entirely outside the vessel's hull).<sup class="reference">[11]</sup> Unusually, Queen Mary 2's gas turbines are not housed along with her diesels in the engine room deep in her hull, but instead reside in a soundproofed enclosure directly underneath the funnel. This arrangement allowed the vessel's designers to supply the oxygen hungry turbines with air intakes without having to run air ducts the entire height of the ship, which would have wasted valuable interior space.<sup class="reference">[11]"</sup>
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Old 01-13-2011, 04:28 PM   #28
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RE: Hybrid boats

The first diesel electric ship was a Russian tanker built in 1903. It is not new technology.

Later ships used steam turbine driven generators to turn synchronous electric motors.

Diesel electric is not the same as what the car marketers call "hybrid" it is diesel electric and there is no battery in the system.

The old Washington State ferries used DC drive motors to allow very fine control of thrust over a wide range. They were designed at a period when medium size marine diesels were direct reversing and diesel electric drive eliminated the risk of starting problems that were common but not acceptable for ferry operations on short runs. The new ferries are AC motor powered for the same reasons of maneuverability and control. The AC system allows rapid changes in direction and full torque at any shaft rpm so it makes for rapid acceleration and reversal. It is far better than the old CP controls for ferry use.

Very few megayachts use diesel electric propulsion because the normal operating envelope doesn't lend itself to the advantages of the system. There are a few, but they are very large and are not in the normal charter yacht type of use.

Diesel electric is more efficient when a ship requires large amount of propulsion power when underway at high speeds and a large amount of electrical power the rest of the time. A cruise ship is a good example. Rather than have one very large engine, or even two plus a half dozen generators the ship can have half a dozen medium size diesel generator sets that when all are online provide full power to propulsion and the hotel load. When operating at part speed, engines can be shut down while still providing the large electrical load to the hotel services. This is where the efficiency gains are made, they only use the number of engines they need when they need them.
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Old 01-13-2011, 04:43 PM   #29
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RE: Hybrid boats

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The new ferries are AC motor powered for the same reasons of maneuverability and control. The AC system allows rapid changes in direction and full torque at any shaft rpm so it makes for rapid acceleration and reversal. It is far better than the old CP controls for ferry use.

When I moved here in 1979 a shipyard on the Duwamish Waterway had gottenn a contract to build six new mid-size ferries for the Washington State system.**IIRC*they were called the "Issaquah" class.* These ferries differed from the existing fleet in that they were direct diesel drive with "computer controlled" variable pitch propellers.* The shipyard had never done a project this big and the propulsion control system was a new technology for the ferries.* Needless to say the shipbuilding program was in trouble from day one and suffered from huge cost over-runs, delays, and on top of it all there were constant problems with the propulsion control system.

I recall that the theory behind the propulsion system on the Issaquah boats was the engines ran at a more or less constant speed and the thrust was governed by varying the pitch of the props.* The "ferry issue" was in the press a lot when the boats were being built and tested*and the woes of the direct diesel drive-variable pitch prop system was a favorite topic.

I have been assuming that the later boats that have been constructed used the same basic setup.* I did not realize that the newest ones are AC, which incidentally is also railroad locomotive technology as GE has been building AC-powered diesel-electric locomotives for many years now (as well as DC, you have your choice).

I have ridden on the Issaquah-class ferries a few times and I recall hearing the diesels hammering away at a pretty constant speed the whole time regardless of what the boat itself was doing.

*
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Old 01-13-2011, 04:57 PM   #30
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Diesel-electric locomotive at Lisbon, Portugal harbor.




Diesel-mechanical locomotive at St. Moritz, Switzerland.






-- Edited by markpierce on Thursday 13th of January 2011 06:00:15 PM
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Old 01-13-2011, 05:02 PM   #31
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RE: Hybrid boats

The new boats are much easier to manage. Maneuvering the old "DC Electrics" was like learning to juggle in a mirror. To reverse the shafts you had to control 4 different rheostats, two for each shaft, field and armature. It was something you had to learn by muscle memory because if you thought about what you were doing you would get dizzy.

The Issaquah class were much nicer but the computer problems meant you had to expect a failure on each and every maneuver and be ready to over ride the system so the concentration was very fatiguing on the short runs.

The new boat are a delight in comparison. Here's a picture of the console on the Issaquah and one of the new boats, I can't remember which one it was, maybe the Wenatchee.
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Old 01-13-2011, 05:04 PM   #32
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RE: Hybrid boats

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markpierce wrote:

Diesel electric locomotive at Liston, Portugal harbor.



I'll see your diesel-electric switch engine and raise you a diesel-AC electric road engine... *
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Old 01-13-2011, 05:07 PM   #33
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Quote:
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Here's a picture of the console on the Issaquah and one of the new boats,
I like the*shelves of "How to Fix Your Ferry" manuals*in the Issaquah control*room.*

-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 13th of January 2011 06:08:10 PM
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Old 01-13-2011, 05:21 PM   #34
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RE: Hybrid boats

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Marin wrote:

I'll see your diesel-electric switch engine and raise you a diesel-AC electric road engine... *
Uh, oh.* My last "chip" is an external-combustion locomotive.




(Shay locomotive, Felton, California)

*
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Old 01-13-2011, 06:19 PM   #35
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Quote:
markpierce wrote:

*
Marin wrote:

I'll see your diesel-electric switch engine and raise you a diesel-AC electric road engine... *
Uh, oh.* My last "chip" is an external-combustion locomotive.

*

*Well, your external combustion engine in this case trumps them all.* While I don't like*old things when it comes to stuff I use every day, I can fully appreciate old stuff as it pertains to historical/nostalgic/sentimental value.* Steam engines are way cool.*

In the late '90s I had an opportunity to go the UK and take a one-week,hands-on course that would have*"qualified" me to be a steam engine driver.* The engine the course used was my favorite steam engine of all time--- a Gresley A-4 Pacific.* It was the center one in this photo, the "Sir Nigel Gresley."* The course was very expensive but regardless, my travel schedule at the time precluded my taking the course, and it is no longer offered using this locomotive.* One of my major regrets in my life.

Now, how can we hijack this thread even more?* We've pretty*much determined that hybrid electric is not a cost-effective conversion for recreational cruisers like ours.* So how about steam conversions?* Eric, Willy would look terrific with a stack spewing black coal smoke as you chuffed into Ketchikan.* What do you think?* And what about all those Nordic Tug conversions that could finally use the stack for what it's intended for.

Maybe Hustler could work up a photo of Willy or a Nordic Tug as a steam conversion......

*


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 13th of January 2011 07:28:48 PM
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Old 01-13-2011, 06:25 PM   #36
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Here's a steamboat console:

And one for a slow speed diesel


-- Edited by RickB on Thursday 13th of January 2011 07:30:07 PM
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Old 01-13-2011, 06:27 PM   #37
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RE: Hybrid boats

See, "new" steam. I love it.
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Old 01-13-2011, 06:32 PM   #38
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RE: Hybrid boats

Marin, * * ...they'd prolly send the fire boat out to hose me. And yes I'd retain the stack on the Nordy and put it to use.

Diesel electric? YES that's the ideal trawler power. I'd have tripple screws, move the engine crossways and aft and move the water tanks fwd. The food of dreams lads.


Hybrids?
Baugh Humbug. Who needs them?
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Old 01-13-2011, 06:35 PM   #39
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Quote:
RickB wrote:

Here's a steamboat console:
Whoa!* No wonder modern*life seems so much more complicated.

Here the fireman controls boiler water-level and the flow of fuel so as to control boiler pressure (she's eyeing the BP gauge).




The engineer would control the throttle, Johnson bar, rail sander, and brakes to control engine/train.**Still, on a boat one wouldn't have a rail sander or brakes!* But then the engineer didn't have to worry about steering the train.

*


-- Edited by markpierce on Thursday 13th of January 2011 11:00:58 PM
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Old 01-13-2011, 06:46 PM   #40
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Another advantage--- maybe--- with a steam conversion of a recreational trawler is that if you did it right, somebody would have to shovel the coal. And since we are busy navigating and talking on the radio and stuff, it would seem that the role of fireman would fall to the significant other. So instead of nagging in your ear---"Watch out for that buoy," "You're getting too close to that other boat," "How come the little boat symbol's not on the line?", "I think you're going too fast," "I think you're going too slow," "What's that funny noise?" you will drive in peace and quiet as your partner will be down under the cabin sole feeding the boiler.

The photo is of the restored "President," one of the last surviving examples of a steam-powered narrowboat.* They were not popular or practical as the powerplant took too much space away from the revenue-producing front end so the steam*era on the canals was very short lived and only*a few were made.*

On the other hand, the engine room was a great place to park the wife or kids to keep the boiler fed.

-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 13th of January 2011 07:56:26 PM
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