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Old 05-19-2012, 11:24 AM   #61
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av8r gives us a hint as to how our consuming habits evolve.

We change our buying habits for many reasons.

Ever heard of the ad line ________ people can't be wrong? Howabout "this is'nt your fathers Oldsmobile. Or "Out with the old in with the new". How do fads become fads? People become accustomed to thinking new is good and better and old is bad and inferior. The explanation for this is that more often than not or even most of the time all the above leads us to better products. But often these habits and attitudes lead us to use products where they are'nt most suitable. Ever seen someone use duct tape on ducts? Probably not. It has become so popular people use it for almost anything but what it is suited for because it's popular to do so. What is popular is king here in the US.

People use multi-vis oil mostly for good reasons. It's better ........most of the time. It was created by the military to help start engines in extremely cold weather and is desirable and/or helpful much of the time but in some cases we do'nt need that feature of oil performance. But most importantly we think of a 1936 Chevrolet when we think of 30W oil. But the 30W oil we put in 1936 Chevrolets is WAY different than the old stuff. Has many useful additives that are needed most of the time but the oil refiners offer us a choice when it comes to viscosity improvers. I think they know that it's better not to have viscosity improvers in our oil where it's not needed and offer the product w/o the VIs. Stationary engines in heated buildings like a power house or pump house are excellent examples. A good example is where relatively warm conditions exist in an engine room or compartment where the engine will be given ample time for warm up. Operating engineers of stationary engines will probably almost universally opt for not using multi vis oil. And trawler boat operators should do so for almost the same reasons.

JUST SAY NO TO MULTI-VIS

av8r,
It's very likely you use bias ply tires if you have a trailer.
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Old 05-19-2012, 11:48 AM   #62
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Eric's point might be that while you have moved on to newer and better technologies the engines designed in the 50s and 60s haven't. They are just the same as when they were designed back in the straight-weight oil days. I was taught by one of the best aviation mechanics I've ever known to operate and maintain an engine in accordance with the way the people who designed and made it wanted it to be operated and maintained. So if it's a 1940s airplane radial, I operate it as though it was 1940. We operate and maintain the FL120s in our boat as though it was the 1950s when the engine was designed.

That's not to say that modern oils are detrimental (although some of them may be under some conditions) but that if the engine when operated in compiance with the 1950s operators manual went some 25,000 hours before needing an overhaul in commercial service and has a repuatation for going 12,000 to 14,000 hours in recreational service, I don't see a lot of reasons to deviate from the manual.
Marin you can't buy the oils that were used in 1940. I have a can of oil in my garage that has metal ends and a heavy paper cylinder in the middle. The additives and perhaps the oil itself is better than what's in that can. I do'nt buy your theory at all. But frequently some testing should be done before a new product is used. Remember when they put high detergents in automotive oils and lots of old engines died as they were held together by years of sludge accumulation? But if you rebuilt a 1950 Chevy engine and used synthetic lube all things would probably be fine but the operative word there is "probably". But where it has been proven to be fine I am of a mind to use the new stuff......AND this has no implications on my straight weight oil in trawler engines. New is not bad. Unsuitability is.
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Old 05-19-2012, 12:38 PM   #63
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So you use straight mineral oil and 78 octane leaded gas in that 985?

What oil does Kenmore use in their recip Beavers these days?
Unfortunately (their term), they have to use what's available. This is not always a preference for them. For example, 80/87 leaded fuel is no longer available and hasn't been for a long time. So they have to use 100LL which causes a number of problems. At one point they were considering switching to automotive fuel for these engines. They use additives to "make up for" the absence of lead. Also there are valve and valve seat conversions for the 985 to allow it to run on today's unleaded fuel. But the bottom line for them is that with the absence of the fuels that the engine was designed for the engines simply require overhauls or partial overhauls sooner than they used to. The same is true for the Cessna 180s in their fleet.

By WWII I believe mineral oil was no longer being used in engines. WWI, yes.

The lube oil recommended for use in the R985 is Grade 120 (60 wt).

But when I say operate a 1940s engine as though it was 1940, I don't mean so much use 1940s oils and fuels as I mean operate the engine. Warm up periods, how much power to use, rpm range, service intervals, etc.
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Old 05-19-2012, 01:39 PM   #64
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100 LL is anything but low lead. ALower lead that 115/145 but very high lead. Some used it in Ultralights and it promptly cowled their plugs w awful looking stuff.
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Old 05-19-2012, 09:25 PM   #65
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A real mechanic told me decades ago that oil is the cheapest insurance one can have for one's engines. I changed mine every two hundred hours for 25 yrs and over 6,300 hrs and did not add oil between changes.
Changed the fuel filters on the SAME SCHEDULE and never ever had a clogged filter.
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Old 05-19-2012, 09:33 PM   #66
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A real mechanic told me decades ago that oil is the cheapest insurance one can have for one's engines. I changed mine every two hundred hours for 25 yrs and over 6,300 hrs and did not add oil between changes.
Changed the fuel filters on the SAME SCHEDULE and never ever had a clogged filter.
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That's what most of us do...the rest THINK they gave the answer when in reality...it doesn't matter one little bit what oil, what viscosity as long as it's changed regularly with filter changes....
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Old 05-20-2012, 12:47 AM   #67
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I'll drink to that psneeld. Except it does matter a a little bit .......but so little it probably won't be noticed by anyone. We all "think" we're right and that makes us feel good and feeling good WILL make a difference.
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Old 05-20-2012, 03:41 AM   #68
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I agree. Many years ago I spent considerable time on the phone with the Shell Oil engineers discussing 60w compared with 20-50W. As a result I switched to multi-vis in our P&W R-2800s (CB-16s) on a Convair. We experienced lower consumption, fewer leaks, and easier starts, and we ran 4 sets of engines to TBO (time between overhaul, the FAA-mandated overhaul interval.) We found we could start in Thule, Greenland in March without preheat, which was impossible with straight 60W.
Like I said, my engines spin nicely when cold and have good hot oil pressure, and that makes me happy.
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Old 05-20-2012, 03:50 AM   #69
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Actually, I don't. When I replaced all six tires plus the spare on my 28's trailer 3 years ago I used radials because in my opinion they are better than bias.
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Old 05-21-2012, 09:37 AM   #70
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The engine's handbook is vague. (It emphasizes the need to avoid greater-than-a-five-minute idle time.)
If you boat in a populated area or one populated with protected marine mamals, you will spend far more than five minutes at idle speed quite often. I'm talking "Idle Speed/No Wake" zones here.

A boat engine needs to be able to operate under these conditions. Trying to tell a LEO or judge that the engine can't be operated at idle speed for more than five minutes will not get you any sympathy.
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Old 05-21-2012, 10:10 AM   #71
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A real mechanic told me decades ago that oil is the cheapest insurance one can have for one's engines. I changed mine every two hundred hours for 25 yrs and over 6,300 hrs and did not add oil between changes.
Changed the fuel filters on the SAME SCHEDULE and never ever had a clogged filter.
CCC
I won't argue the value of changing oil and filters, but many "real mechanics" are guys who grew up fiddling with cars or boats and have no formal (or informal) training or education, just their experience.

Just because you've replaced a thousand spark plugs or done a thousand oil changes doesn't mean you understand the inner workings of an engine.
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Old 05-21-2012, 10:25 AM   #72
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Chrisjs,
..............All real authorities I've ever read all agree that the higher the viscosity the oil the lower the wear. .............
And yet, most new cars run 5W-30 oil.
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Old 05-21-2012, 11:43 AM   #73
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rwidman wrote:
"And yet, most new cars run 5W-30 oil."
Yes....they are more conserned about the EPA sticker on the new cars giving high numbers than how long your car will last.

rwidman also wrote:
"Just because you've replaced a thousand spark plugs or done a thousand oil changes doesn't mean you understand the inner workings of an engine." Indeed yes but huge numbers of people take advice from mechanics as though they were scientists.

As to idling Mark Deere is just trying to tell you to make some effort to minimize it or just to avoid long periods of idling. Not to be taken literally.
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Old 05-21-2012, 11:45 AM   #74
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rwidman wrote:
"And yet, most new cars run 5W-30 oil."
Yes....they are more concerned about the EPA sticker on the new cars giving high numbers than how long your car will last. And they may not recommend synthetic oil just because they have'nt tested it. Not because they do'nt approve of it.

rwidman also wrote:
"Just because you've replaced a thousand spark plugs or done a thousand oil changes doesn't mean you understand the inner workings of an engine." Indeed yes but huge numbers of people take advice from mechanics as though they were scientists.

As to idling Mark Deere is just trying to tell you to make some effort to minimize it or just to avoid long periods of idling. Not to be taken literally.
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Old 05-21-2012, 02:20 PM   #75
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"We found we could start in Thule, Greenland in March without preheat, which was impossible with straight 60W."

The 3350 had a book , to look up the lowest temp expected , and a switch and a clock with a second hand to tell how long the switch would be held down.

115/145 av gas was used to dilute the 60 gal of oil for each engine.

A different page in Da Book told how long to run on the ground to get rid of the av gas.

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Old 05-21-2012, 02:35 PM   #76
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As to idling Mark Deere is just trying to tell you to make some effort to minimize it or just to avoid long periods of idling. Not to be taken literally.
Eric, you can say that again. Oh! You did.
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Old 05-21-2012, 02:40 PM   #77
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The 3350 had a book , to look up the lowest temp expected , and a switch and a clock with a second hand to tell how long the switch would be held down.

115/145 av gas was used to dilute the 60 gal of oil for each engine.
Even the Beaver has an oil dilute switch on it but it is almost never used, at least not in climates like the PNW. I'm not even sure the one in the Beaver we fly is connected anymore.
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Old 05-21-2012, 04:48 PM   #78
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The oil dilution thins the 60W oil so it flows enough for cold starts, and as the oil heats up the gas evaporates, restoring the oil to its original 60W viscosity.
In other words, a short-term, on-demand mult-weight oil.
I was aways more scared of the oil dilution than the multi-weight oils.
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