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Old 10-27-2013, 09:24 PM   #21
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I don't think there is an easy answer to this question either but if I were buying a boat I might ask how many hours do you think an engine can have on it before discounting it for purchase. This makes a very general assumption that an engine with 1000 hours like mine is better than one with 5000 hours which is likely but not necessarily true due to factors given by previous posters. My 1000 hour engine is 32 years old. The 5000 hour engine may be only 5 years old and have meticulous care and maintenance. You have to look at the specifics of each case but if I were buying a boat I would still want something with under 2500 hours just because that makes me comfortable.
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Old 10-27-2013, 09:48 PM   #22
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Hi Hollywood
I do not think you can asertain my knowlege by my question! Answer the question and let the interpetation of the data speak for it self! As I shop for a trawler it is difficult to get these variables I dought seriously if any seller would tell the truth, oil analisys is great if the oil is used, compression can be played with, but all I am trying to find out if let say a lehman;s cost of ownership, versus a Cat, or a DD or a volvo which works better. It is fairly obvious under normal condition ie no blown radiator hose changed filters timely, air filters always on etc like Manyboats pointed out to understand a cat taxed with a higher HP (bigger turbo) would work how many less hours and Baker please limit your answers only to boat motors diesels in fact
Thanks Gregg
Gregg,
you still don't get it do you...
if you asked about a specific motor.. or three for that matter you will get a answer. But to ask how many hours a diesel motor will go and what are the associated costs it is entirely too vague.

There are a LOT of different diesel marine engines .. and even more configurations of the same motor... I sometimes run a small passenger ferry that has " pumped" 8v92ta motors. They get about 2000 hours between " major" in frame rebuilds. There are a lot of minor things that break , water pumps, fuel pumps, cams, turbos, that go at different times during that 2000 hrs. Those motors in a yacht would last longer. The way these are run at max power all day, all summer.. 2000 hrs max.

Since you do not appear to be very familiar with marine diesels it would be a good idea to refer to the services of a well known marine mechanic if you get interested in a boat with a motor you know little about.
HOLLYWOOD
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Old 10-27-2013, 10:09 PM   #23
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It has been suggested that my questions are too broad so I will be more specific I am talking about diesel motors that are often found in Trawlers like the members of this forum have, non commercial use. I will name the popular brands!
Volvo
Cat 3208 275 hp naturally aspirated
Cat 3208 375 hp turbo
DD 555
lehman sabre 135 HP
If I miss one or somebody has one that I did not mention please do not take it to heart and your input will be greatly appreciated!
I have not asked about cost of ownership because their are a lot of variables like taking it to the marina to change the oil or needing a mechanic to change a belt where others can do this them selfs
The purpose is like finding out if a lehman with 2500 hours is like a cat with 5000 hours this could be their half life, as I said I will be averaging out the data!
Thanks again
Gregg
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Old 10-28-2013, 12:10 AM   #24
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.......and Baker please limit your answers only to boat motors diesels in fact
Thanks Gregg
Uhhhhhh...I was. What made you think otherwise????
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Old 10-28-2013, 12:21 AM   #25
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Volvo
Cat 3208 275 hp naturally aspirated
Cat 3208 375 hp turbo
DD 555
lehman sabre 135 HP

Gregg
The Naturally aspirated Cat 3208 is 210hp..... Of the engines you listed, my first pick based on longevity alone would be the Lehman....followed by the NA Cat...followed by the TA Cat....followed by the Volvo...followed by the DD.

Others in no certain order:
Yanmar
Perkins
John Deere
Lugger
Cummins
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Old 10-28-2013, 03:03 AM   #26
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I cannot see how this helps, there are too many variables. Engines often die due to peripherals, rather than wearing out.
My 32yo Lehman 120s have just over 2000 hours. I expect they will outlive me. But, I recently learned (example of variables) one was pulled off its mounts when the shaft picked up a mooring float rope, in the hands of a PO. I just renewed the rear gearbox oil seal on that engine. Cause or coincidence?
I rate the Perkins 6354 as having similar properties to a 6.2L Lehman, and similar longevity. In either case a turbo version is a whole new ballgame.
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Old 10-28-2013, 07:59 AM   #27
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In the end, and I think someone has already mentioned it, an engine that has the lowest horsepower per liter is likely gonna live the longest....all other things being equal.

You have a Lehman 120/135. And you have my Cummins at 330hp. They are almost exactly the same displacement(6.2 vs 5.9 respectively). I would expect almost 2.5 times the hours out of the Lehman than the Cummins.

Somebody mentioned rating an engine based on how many gallons have been run through it. Same thing since fuel/heat/energy pretty much equals horsepower.
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Old 10-28-2013, 08:34 AM   #28
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.........And just to confuse you Wataworld, I have managed to kill two Lehman 120's in 15 years, a feat many thought impossible, just imagine what I would have done to a less reliable engine.

It reminds me when my old mutt Basil, an Old English Sheep dog, ran straight into a fully grown tree, having not noticed it. I said to a lady standing next to me, as by way of an explanation, well he's adorable but not the sharpest knife in the block. She looked straight at me and said, sheep dogs are quite intelligent, it's the owners who tend to be the problem.

Moral of the story, it's not the engine type you need to worry about but the PO's.
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Old 10-28-2013, 09:12 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Wataworld View Post
It has been suggested that my questions are too broad so I will be more specific I am talking about diesel motors that are often found in Trawlers like the members of this forum have, non commercial use. I will name the popular brands!
Volvo
Cat 3208 275 hp naturally aspirated
Cat 3208 375 hp turbo
DD 555
lehman sabre 135 HP
If I miss one or somebody has one that I did not mention please do not take it to heart and your input will be greatly appreciated!
I have not asked about cost of ownership because their are a lot of variables like taking it to the marina to change the oil or needing a mechanic to change a belt where others can do this them selfs
The purpose is like finding out if a lehman with 2500 hours is like a cat with 5000 hours this could be their half life, as I said I will be averaging out the data!
Thanks again
Gregg
I think you probably mean the Cummins 555 and DD 6-71
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Old 10-28-2013, 09:33 AM   #30
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To step back and try and take a different approach when buying a used boat:

Oil analysis of the engine for what wear is on the engine. If the oil is fresh avoid the boat as you can't tell what, if anything, is being hidden.

Oil analysis of the transmission.

Age of the the marine add ons Both water pumps, the heat exchange, alternator, the exhaust elbow.

Last time the drive plate, if any, was changed.

Turbo condition, if any.

Last time the engine had a valve job.

Whether the engine is a higher performance to weight engine especially the higher rpm engines. (Yanmars versus Lehmans, Volvos and Luggers)

When were the hoses replaced?

With this information a good marine engine surveyor can give a reasonable opinion on the condition of the engine and the add ons.

Hours of use and age are not alone the important factors.

Marty
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Old 10-28-2013, 10:06 AM   #31
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Hours of use and age are not alone the important factors.

Marty

Best statement made so far!

HOLLYWOOD
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Old 10-29-2013, 05:11 AM   #32
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The Resilts so Far

This survey has not turned out the way I thought it would

1 Lehman SP135 7929 NMOH (no major overhaul)
1 Lehman 120 2000 NMOH
1 Volvo MD17D 2300 NMOH
1 Lugger 12000 NMOH

10 Opinions No facts
12 Subjective answers No facts

I want to thank the responders who actually gave facts it appears that SMOH's are not that big of a deal
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Old 10-29-2013, 05:35 AM   #33
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So, what did we learn here?
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Old 10-29-2013, 06:57 AM   #34
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>So, what did we learn here?<

Yacht engines usually never get enough hours to actually wear them out.

They get Killed , Destroyed by lack of maint , especially maint before storage.

When put back in service a lack of maint on belts & hoses and fluids can cause early failure.
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Old 10-29-2013, 07:34 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Wataworld View Post
The Resilts so Far

This survey has not turned out the way I thought it would

1 Lehman SP135 7929 NMOH (no major overhaul)
1 Lehman 120 2000 NMOH
1 Volvo MD17D 2300 NMOH
1 Lugger 12000 NMOH

10 Opinions No facts
12 Subjective answers No facts

I want to thank the responders who actually gave facts it appears that SMOH's are not that big of a deal
Gregg
I've chartered three boats with Lehmans. Two had 125s one was twin 135s. They had 11,000, 13,000, and 14,000 hours.
Some of these opinions and subjective response come from folks who work in the industry or have tons of experience. Me, I am a bone head You just have to take what you get and make your own "opinion". You may want to join boatdiesel.com.
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Old 10-29-2013, 09:27 AM   #36
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Oil analysis of the engine for what wear is on the engine. If the oil is fresh avoid

Marty
Oil analysis is a much over blown criteria. As you mentioned, the engine hang ons are something to carefully examine, IMHO they trump any findings from oil analysis. Why on earth would you walk away from a vessel where the oil is fresh?
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Old 10-29-2013, 09:37 AM   #37
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The Resilts so Far

This survey has no facts
Gregg
Once again, you cannot expect facts when the survey basis is the proverbial how long is a piece of string. One thing I can tell for a fact, none on this Forum will see a new engine die on them if book maintenance were rigorously adhered to.
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Old 10-29-2013, 09:59 AM   #38
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I know this was an important number in the sport fishing world, as other posts stated DD run hard had a 2k-3k life span, so it was good to know when it was done last through documentation and inspection. In the trawler world not sure all the relevant, given the low HP required and typically "age" engine, I'd think replacement is a more cost effective way to go given all the peripherals needing replacement as well, I know this will ruffle some old school Lehman guys, but just my opinion, if I had a Lehman coughing up blood, I’d prefer to replace with a nice new Deere then rebuild and replace all the parts around it.
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Old 10-29-2013, 12:09 PM   #39
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I know this will ruffle some old school Lehman guys, but just my opinion, if I had a Lehman coughing up blood, I’d prefer to replace with a nice new Deere then rebuild and replace all the parts around it. [/FONT][/COLOR]
While I agree with you, in theory...if money were no object.... But, if it were my money and I was replacing a Lehman I would go with the plug-n-play replacement by American Diesel. it is just too easy.

And since the OP has decided to respond to me via PM instead of on thread, this is what I had to say:

You make it sound like overhauling an engine on a boat is as normal as changing the oil. The goal of most purchasers/owners is to NEVER have to overhaul or replace an engine. And when it comes to the point of having to overhaul, most people replace the engine since most engines are not sleeved....some people would call it "disposable"...and overhauling the engine IN THE BOAT would likely be just as expensive as just getting a new/rebuilt engine put in.

My boat has Cummins 6BTAs. The higher powered version(330hp). I would not purchase a boat with these engines with over 1000 hours unless I knew the complete history of the engines. These engines have certain items that need to be maintained over the life of the engine and if they are not, the engine will not make it to 2000 hours. They are good engines, but they need to be maintained and watched like a hawk....that is the high powered versions. The 210/220hp versions do not have aftercoolers and fuel coolers and generally are not put on boats where you need to run them hard(ie planing boats) so those will last forever. I know properly maintained high powered versions can get 5000 hours but I would not expect them to last much longer. The low RPM low horsepower engines(ie Lehman) will last forever and will last quite awhile even if neglected. If I were buying an older boat that was not a planing boat, my first choice would be Lehman 135. American Diesel makes a plug and play replacement for the Lehman that I am sure is a decent engine. If I were buying a "newish" boat(ie after the lehman era) I would go with Deere or Lugger....not a coincidence that Nordhavn uses both of those engines pretty much exclusively.

Sidenote....correct me if I am wrong, but I think Lugger is just a "marinizer" of John Deere engines???
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Old 10-29-2013, 12:18 PM   #40
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So, what did we learn here?
That a person this worried about engines should go sailing?
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