Help! I've bled air somewhere FL-135

[Ben]

Ben:
In post #20 you mention moving on to your cooling system after the fuel issue is solved. New hoses and clean heat exchangers are a good idea, but, I would advise removing the heat exchanger and also the oil cooler and taking them to a radiator shop and let them handle the job. I have done this and the cost for both was under a $100 total. Both came back looking brand new and was worth not worrying about poking a hole in the heat exchanger while reaming.
Mike

Mike - Thanks! Excellent call.

OK On to fuel...

Called Brian at American Diesel Corp, the manufacturer of my engine.

Details:

1. Told him of my NAPA filter, supplied by the PO. He said this is the least recommended brand due to least reliability. Understand these are what I took off the motor initially, but will switch.
2. He recommended Fram, CAV, Caterpillar, Perkins, Purolator, just not the auto-store copies.
3. Asked about spin-ons. He was adamant that I would have more trouble with these. It was like I insulted his mother. I mean adamant.
4. He advised me on HOW to plunge the lift pump lever, which I will do and have done after the first couple times. (Slow and steady, not fast and hyper)
5. I followed the manual procedure and he agreed with my process (because it follows the manual they wrote. Imagine that).

On Tuesday I will try again. The education continues...

 

[Ben]

Good idea but how old are they? If the oil and/or transmission coolers are approaching ~2000 hours, replace them, even if they look good, they wear out. The heat exchanger on the engine, the Ford Lehman SP135 gurus say to replace approximately every 4000 hours. In all cases if you replace, make sure they are made with Cupro-Nickel.

PO had the date 2005 written on them. Motor has 5000 hours. PO took many shortcuts. I just want to go over the engine and assure good equipment without wondering where he did a short cut.

One example shortcut is he wired his own (land) inverter (to a marine application) with an improper grounding. My electrician said I could have blown up the boat in the right circumstances. The other is he had an improper shore-power to generator switch, that was not even installed. When I first got the boat, I had to unbolt a wire from one terminal to the other to use the generator.

So... now that I have had some intimate time with the boat, I want to be sure things are tippy-top and not blow myself up any time soon.

I got three battery boxes from the PO. One set of batteries sits inside the shower sump collector on a low platform. Batteries. In water.

I was pretty ignorant when I bought our boat. Hopefully system by system, I can fix and learn. Once I've rebuilt the boat, I hope to sell it for way, way less than I have in it. Because that's the nature of the universe.

Call me crazy.

 

[Gulf Comanche]

Yeah, kind of like my adventures in the stock market: buy high, sell low, never fails.

 

[Ben]

Came to boat. Ready to do filters over again. Found beer in fridge. Ordered spin-on adapters. I'd call that a productive day.

 

[Wxx3]

Yeah, kind of like my adventures in the stock market: buy high, sell low, never fails.

How else can you lock in that loss?

Far less stressful than watching a stock go up, up, up. only to go down, down, down, and further down (see Apple)

 

[C lectric]

Ben,
I'm glad you got a chuckle. T'was a bit boneheaded on my part, oh well.

 

[FF]

If one gets really stuck with finding an air leak the easy way to find the source is with some pressure.

Many places can be accessed the air drain on a secondary filter is easy to find .

Simply create a fitting that will screw in that adapts an Outboard fitting .

A 6 gallon OB tank full of diesel tank has a hand pump in the fuel line that will pressurize the fuel system lightly .
A frustrating minor air leak becomes a major source of fuel at even 1 or 2 psi.

Use paper towel strips at each fitting and discover how many leaks you actually have.

6 gal is a fine emergency fuel supply for displacement boats (only 3- 5 miles for the Sports) but perhaps 20 miles for the slow folks.

 

[Ben]

If one gets really stuck with finding an air leak the easy way to find the source is with some pressure.

Many places can be accessed the air drain on a secondary filter is easy to find .

Simply create a fitting that will screw in that adapts an Outboard fitting .

This is a good idea. I've actually just bought (they're en route now) some spin-on adapters. I want to eliminate variability in the process. I have little doubt it's the secondary filters because I made an adjustment and it got worse. So... with the spin-ons, I hope to reduce one point of the problem.

 

[Wxx3]

I thought you had said that Diesel folks had said NO to spin on filters??
Richard

 

[psneeld]

I thought you had said that Diesel folks had said NO to spin on filters??
Richard

While I respect American Diesels position, reputation and knowledge....

I got rid of my OEM filters BECAUSE I see nothing but potential problems with then versus almost ANY other filter I have ever seen.

EACH filter is a leak waiting to happen (either air or fuel)...mine had stripped plastic drains on them..I stripped another fiddling with it one day...thankfully the PO had a spare filter assembly to cannibalize.

Why would the OEM fiters be majic when no other diesel I have ever seen has them and every other has simple spin on?

Sorry...this was one area that I don't agree with the advice from AD and don't see where harm will come....even not with a clear bowl I have a better idea what is getting past my primary filters without the fear of stripping the crappy drain plugs and being stuck someplace over a $1.00 part.

Best of all now a filter change is measured in a few minutes compared to what seemed like an hour last time because of juggling all the parts on reassembly.

 

[Tom.B]

While I respect American Diesels position, reputation and knowledge....

I got rid of my OEM filters BECAUSE I see nothing but potential problems with then versus almost ANY other filter I have ever seen.

EACH filter is a leak waiting to happen (either air or fuel)...mine had stripped plastic drains on them..I stripped another fiddling with it one day...thankfully the PO had a spare filter assembly to cannibalize.

Why would the OEM fiters be majic when no other diesel I have ever seen has them and every other has simple spin on?

Sorry...this was one area that I don't agree with the advice from AD and don't see where harm will come....even not with a clear bowl I have a better idea what is getting past my primary filters without the fear of stripping the crappy drain plugs and being stuck someplace over a $1.00 part.

Best of all now a filter change is measured in a few minutes compared to what seemed like an hour last time because of juggling all the parts on reassembly.

 

[Bay Pelican]

An alternative to spin on filters for the Lehman 135 is to adapt an additional Racor as the secondary filter at the same location as the current secondary filters. By an adapter and a two hoses the additional Racor serves as my secondary. Monitoring it and changing it are simple and I cut down on the the different spare parts to carry.

Marty

 

[psneeld]

here's what I used to replace the OEM Lehman filters....not sure if the pic is the diesel one... and the good news is it's 1/3 the size and a breeze for access even if I have to change it 2x as often...with 2 micron primary that should still only be once a year unless I get atrocious fuel (which I never have in 30 something years in the US)

 

[Ben]

I thought you had said that Diesel folks had said NO to spin on filters??
Richard

Brian had said no, this is correct. I spoke with other captains afterward who were surprised (in unison) that Brian had said that. Most frequent issues have been in getting the top and bottom sealing rings properly seated or even mixed up because they are different sizes. Also, I fear I did not replace the o-rings correctly on the central shaft on my secondaries.

From the other captains who have the spin-on adapters, all were very pleased with them and reported excellent reliability. I am willing to deviate from ADC advice (Brian's) because of the reported success of others. Also, one captain reminded me that he heard Bob Smith of ADC lauding the spin-ons in a public presentation.

That was enough for me to get them.

 

[Ben]

This is why it makes sense to me to go to spin-ons. Just seems like the CAV design has too many opportunities to fail. Once this is done, I can crank engine and move on to other jobs.

 

[Blue Heron]

Have you checked the position of the start solenoid at the pump? I was chasing presumed air leak and it turned out to be a shitty relay.

Also, have you cracked the injectors?

 

[skipperdude]

I would start at the tank and work your way back. When you changeds the racor did you fill it with fuel?
Do you have fuel at the injectors. Crank the engine while cracking the injector at the nut on top if fuel sperts out you have fuel.

No fuel.

Next check the bleed screws at the fuel pump. I think there are two of them on the pump itself.

Random thoughts.

Sd

 

[Xsbank]

I removed the filters from the engine and installed a 500 Racor with a 2 micron element, but because I could not find out if Racors are rated for vibration, I remote-mounted it on a bulkhead. Worked fine, even with the fuel being pushed through the Racor by the lift pump.

Start over. Take out all the rubber o-rings and things and check the surfaces and reinstall, using your electric pump to fill the Racors. If you insist on installing spin-ons, wash them in clean fuel before you add the elements and make sure everything fits, then run your electric pump and look for leaks, then pump your lift pump and remember your water-lift muffler!

It's also possible that your lift pump is shot, it sounds like its high-time. They are cheap, buy a replacement and keep your original as a spare.

 

[Wxx3]

While I respect American Diesels position, reputation and knowledge....

I got rid of my OEM filters BECAUSE I see nothing but potential problems with then versus almost ANY other filter I have ever seen.

EACH filter is a leak waiting to happen (either air or fuel)...mine had stripped plastic drains on them..I stripped another fiddling with it one day...thankfully the PO had a spare filter assembly to cannibalize.

Why would the OEM filters be magic when no other diesel I have ever seen has them and every other has simple spin on?

Sorry...this was one area that I don't agree with the advice from AD and don't see where harm will come....even not with a clear bowl I have a better idea what is getting past my primary filters without the fear of stripping the crappy drain plugs and being stuck someplace over a $1.00 part.

Best of all now a filter change is measured in a few minutes compared to what seemed like an hour last time because of juggling all the parts on reassembly.

umm maybe time for a re-evaluation, as i am sitting here, just have changed my fuel and oil filters, fat, dumb and happy, when I read ben's post about leaving out the little black o-ring that goes on the long bolt. I didn't replace any damn o ring and the engine rang fine for 20 minutes. BUT, I decide to do the right thing, take it all apart and put those f...ing rings in.

Spoiler alert. I will now give you time to guess what happens next.

 

[Wxx3]

As you may have guessed, I stripped the fitting for bleed screw.So now, the housing is at a machine shop and I am thinking of where i can get a spin on conversion.

Seriously, i have seen the future,

Help

 

[Forkliftt]

Personally......., and honestly this maybe is the result of just having a limited boating budget.... I almost always maintain and repair the original system on my boat. CAV secondary fuel filters, original cabin lights are reconditioned with spare parts now in stock(sorry, still incandescent) and the original fuel tanks, holding tank and original style pumps. I believe there are improvements out there, but when making any repair I still hear "WHATS THE SYSTEM?" Shouted out my my old mentor Al Kemp. If you don't know how it works, how are you gonna guarantee you will be able to repair when it fails (usually at the worst possible time)??

 

[psneeld]

Pers.onally........, and honestly this maybes is the result mof just having a limitede boating budget.t... I almost aslways mainytain and repair the orisginal system on my boat. CAV secondarry fuel filters, originual caboin lightsy are reconditioned with s pare pwarts now in sotock(sorry, nstill incandeskcent) and the original fuel .tanks, holdin.g tank and original style pumps. I beleieve there aere improvementrs out there, bgut whean making any repair I still hear "IE SYSTEM?" Shouted out my my old mentor Al Kemp. If you don't know how it works, how are you gonna guarantee you will be able to repair when it fails (usually at the worst possible time)??

I agree...know your systems...

but...my boat is a 1988...just about every system on the boat could be and is currently being improved with newer tech.

The original fuel filters on a Ford Lehman have to be 1950's tech...ANYTHING made in the last 30 years is a qyuantum leap in improvement there...changing filters that require 10 parts and 6-8 potential leak sources (or more) just didn't make sense to me.

EVERY PART of my boat could be made from better materials and better design. From vinylester glass to non-wood corings and supports, stringers to even the engine.....

Staying OEM has some advantages when sticking with a particular system....but all in all...the only reason I bought an 80's vintage boat is because of my dire financial situation... many boats from that era are just a disaster waiting to happen and require way more work than they should.

 

[Ben]

changing filters that require 10 parts and 6-8 potential leak sources (or more) just didn't make sense to me.

The math is killing me. It's so clear.

If the probability of failure is 20% for each seal/bleed point, the probability of success is 80%. Then in a two-filter system there's 3 seal/bleed points per filter for 6 total. New system has one seal point for spin-on, or 2 total.

Old system P(success) = .8 x .8 x .8 x .8 x .8 x .8 = .26 or 26%
New system P(success) = .8 x .8 = .64 or 64%

Go with less seals. Change the failure rate to whatever. It's better to have less failure points.

The technology argument:
An iPod beats an 8-track every time.

 

[jleonard]

I agree...know your systems...

but...my boat is a 1988...just about every system on the boat could be and is currently being improved with newer tech.

The original fuel filters on a Ford Lehman have to be 1950's tech...ANYTHING made in the last 30 years is a qyuantum leap in improvement there...changing filters that require 10 parts and 6-8 potential leak sources (or more) just didn't make sense to me.

EVERY PART of my boat could be made from better materials and better design. From vinylester glass to non-wood corings and supports, stringers to even the engine.....

Staying OEM has some advantages when sticking with a particular system....but all in all...the only reason I bought an 80's vintage boat is because of my dire financial situation... many boats from that era are just a disaster waiting to happen and require way more work than they should.

AMEN Brother.

 

[Wxx3]

I agree...know your systems...

but...my boat is a 1988...just about every system on the boat could be and is currently being improved with newer tech.

The original fuel filters on a Ford Lehman have to be 1950's tech...ANYTHING made in the last 30 years is a qyuantum leap in improvement there...changing filters that require 10 parts and 6-8 potential leak sources (or more) just didn't make sense to me.

EVERY PART of my boat could be made from better materials and better design. From vinylester glass to non-wood corings and supports, stringers to even the engine.....

Staying OEM has some advantages when sticking with a particular system....but all in all...the only reason I bought an 80's vintage boat is because of my dire financial situation... many boats from that era are just a disaster waiting to happen and require way more work than they should.

I think you guys have convinced me. All is running well, after I took filter housing to machine shop to re-thread bleed screw fitting. Cost me $7 and then found new rubber bushings for inlet and outlet lines.

Even got my transmission fluid changed. Engine purrs like a kitten. i love sitting next to it at about 900 rpm. It is just

Richard

 

[Ben]

I think you guys have convinced me. All is running well, after I took filter housing to machine shop to re-thread bleed screw fitting. Cost me $7 and then found new rubber bushings for inlet and outlet lines.

Even got my transmission fluid changed. Engine purrs like a kitten. i love sitting next to it at about 900 rpm. It is just

Richard

You changed the tranny fluid, not the shop, right?

 

[Forkliftt]

I agree...know your systems...

but...my boat is a 1988...just about every system on the boat could be and is currently being improved with newer tech.

The original fuel filters on a Ford Lehman have to be 1950's tech...ANYTHING made in the last 30 years is a qyuantum leap in improvement there...changing filters that require 10 parts and 6-8 potential leak sources (or more) just didn't make sense to me.

EVERY PART of my boat could be made from better materials and better design. From vinylester glass to non-wood corings and supports, stringers to even the engine.....

Staying OEM has some advantages when sticking with a particular system....but all in all...the only reason I bought an 80's vintage boat is because of my dire financial situation... many boats from that era are just a disaster waiting to happen and require way more work than they should.

Note to self. Always check spelling before posting. Auto correct and an iphone 4 can be a dangerous thing in the wrong hands! To correctly quote Al Kemp, "What's the system??!!"

 

[BruceK]

.. I've actually just bought (they're en route now) some spin-on adapters...

I hope they are a fix, you sure deserve one for your persistence.
Where did you get them, what did they cost?

 

[Ben]

I hope they are a fix, you sure deserve one for your persistence.
Where did you get them, what did they cost?

Remarkably, another boater had them on Craigslist. I bought the two for $70 plus cost to ship. Their en route now. I saw the same in West Marine for $89 each. But I know they will probably go for $50 in other places.

As for persistence, I just take a page from Edison in that I am discovering new approaches that will not work. I just want to learn my boat and not feel helpless in front of the mechanic. The day a mechanic told me a 10-hour job might be "30 or 40 hours", I was jarred awake.

Here's a pic I saw of the adapters.

 

[BobH]

Do you have a part number for WM? I looked through their catalog but could not find anything even close.

Thanks,

Bob