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Old 08-14-2014, 09:05 AM   #41
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Having a plan B is always a good idea; a plan C and D might even be advisable.

My plan A is a 36hp single diesel.
Plan B is 300 square feet of sail.
Plan C is the 3hp dink outboard on the swim platform
Plan D is the local Volunteer Rescue service.

So far I've only had to use A & B.

Adding a mast isn't usually cost effective for most trawler type boats; but I would still consider it before any type of stern drive.
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Old 08-14-2014, 09:18 AM   #42
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...at boat shows, people would occasionally ask if we would build our Great Harbours with single engines (we actually did build ONE that way.) If they seemed to have even the least bit of a sense of humor, I would tell them, "Yes, but it would be installed off-center in the engine room - oh, and for no-extra charge, we'll include a wing engine just like it on the other side."
You jest, Eric, but don't think that I haven't imagined an N-37 with a port side main (84 HP) with a larger rudder, and leave the 56 HP standard starboard. From what I recall, you can nearly get hull speed out of one 56 HP, yes? I can see you laughing and shaking your head at why people don't leave a good thing be. But you have to admit,....there are no sub-100 hp diesel twin trawlers that I can think of made in the last 20 years around here, unless you include catamarans. Do you have many owners that run on one engine.....switching to the other and back again, etc.. How do the 37's perform on one engine?
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Larry, yes, I was jesting a bit there. I am NOT going into the whole twins versus single argument. It's kinda like trying to change someone's political or religious beliefs. You can spout your "facts" all you want, but people are gonna believe what they believe. That being said, I will answer your questions.

We have done some testing and determined that the fuel savings of running just one engine are pretty negligible. It takes a given amount of fuel to produce the required horsepower to push a given hull through the water at an identical speed - whether you are using one engine or both. The difference being a complicated formula comparing the drag of the "dead" prop (whether tied or free-spinning) to the additional friction losses created by the other running engine.

In the real world, on our boats at least, you get about a 10-degree yaw when running on one engine (not difficult to deal with - the autopilot handles it just fine) and lose about a knot of speed at normal cruise rpm. Fuel savings are, as I said, negligible if you compare that to simply slowing both engines down that extra knot. You are correct though that the boats will ALMOST achieve hull speed on one engine

We have had owners safely and comfortably bring their boats back from the Bahamas on a single engine due to some kind of failure or problem. The best "running on one" story I have heard concerns "Ho-Okele", the N37 that we delivered to Hawaii on its own bottom (and the only Great Harbour with Luggers.) On an 800-mile trip back to Hawaii from the Johnston Atoll, the original owner told me that he had a hydraulic failure on one of his Luggers in very large seas. I asked him how things worked out. He said it was no problem at all, he just trucked on home on his "spare" motor! Intrepid guy.
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Old 08-14-2014, 09:18 AM   #43
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Does anyone think some folks are getting a little carried away here? Spare starters? Diesel electric? Chain drives and extra engines? Masts and sails (on a powerboat)?
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Old 08-14-2014, 09:26 AM   #44
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Carried away

I don't know, but I've been stranded and it sucks and at the end of the day it depends on comfort level and resources. Trawler Beach House lost a couple of weeks chasing down one little housing that was cracked and spewed oil all over his engine room 3 times on his 30+ year lehman. If he'd been on Long Island Bahamas, It could have been ugly. Lots of neat ideas. Many Trawlers have a stabilizing sail that could help. I'm liking the extra expense of a second motor for my family.
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Old 08-14-2014, 09:53 AM   #45
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I don't know, but I've been stranded and it sucks and at the end of the day it depends on comfort level and resources. Trawler Beach House lost a couple of weeks chasing down one little housing that was cracked and spewed oil all over his engine room 3 times on his 30+ year lehman. If he'd been on Long Island Bahamas, It could have been ugly. Lots of neat ideas. Many Trawlers have a stabilizing sail that could help. I'm liking the extra expense of a second motor for my family.
For most of us, a towing policy at $150 per year takes care of it.

Now if you will not have this available, perhaps having a 30 year old engine is taking a risk. A new or nearly new engine that's been well maintained would lessen the risk and having one that's still in production with wide parts availability would also help. I think there's a practical limit to the spare parts you can carry on board. Filters, belts, impellers, yes, starters alternators add a lot of expense and weight and are generally reliable. You also have to have the tools and knowledge to replace these parts.

Twins can still leave you stranded if they share the same fuel source and even with dedicated fuel sources, if you fill both tanks from the same source you can be dead in the water.

In the end it's where you travel, the risk factor and your comfort level. These are different for each boater.
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Old 08-14-2014, 09:56 AM   #46
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Does anyone think some folks are getting a little carried away here? Spare starters? Diesel electric? Chain drives and extra engines? Masts and sails (on a powerboat)?
Ron
There are so many different situations people are in that what is reasonable depends on the situation. In Charleston I can get towed back to port and probably have a replacement starter delivered the next day or certainly the following day. In Central America or the islands of the Eastern Caribbean it may take a couple of weeks or more to get spares. As far as towing goes, there are so few power boats that you would likely need to get a tow from a sailboat.

As I have found out, air shipping to the Eastern Caribbean, the customs broker, local taxes and local delivery usually cost more than the part.
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Old 08-14-2014, 10:15 AM   #47
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Towing

Marty and Ron all good points. I have always had towing from Boat US. Wouldn't leave the dock without it and I'll certainly have a fuel polisher and Bug Out. Things can and will go wrong. But towing policies don't cover most of the Caribbean. I'd prefer and am seeking a boat with CAT diesels like 3208.
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Old 08-14-2014, 10:55 AM   #48
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Spare starters? Always a good idea BUT,

If someone is contemplating a spare most anything the drill is to do what offshore sailors do.

Install the spare , place the operating unit in a vacuum bag and carry that!
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Old 08-14-2014, 11:10 AM   #49
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speaking of the spares list vs the get home/twin engine...

I like the spares idea for a ocean voyaging single.. on the Nordhavn I spend a lot of time on she has a very comprehensive list of spares.. but it doesn't include a spare engine computer. During a particularly close and violent electrical storm I started to wonder how the new electronic controlled engines fair in a lightening hit... anybody have any idea?

The above mentioned N57 also has a get home.. it has seen some use between Alaska and New York.

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Old 08-14-2014, 11:32 AM   #50
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But whatever the difference THD says "the difference is really negligible. And I fully agree.
I don't know, for the Geared Up system at least, IF these figures are correct:

@ 21mph,
1+1 gives 1.7mpg or 100 gal=170 miles
2+2 gives 1.4mpg or 100 gal=140 miles
1+2 gives 1.95mpg or 100 gal=195 miles

that is a significant difference I'm mileage.

But the point might be moot anyway. Does anybody know if the Geared Up system is even available any more?

But then a 30 more miles per 100 gallons difference between the 1+1 and the 2+2 configurations is nothing to sneeze at either.
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Old 08-14-2014, 11:37 AM   #51
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Does anyone think some folks are getting a little carried away here? Spare starters?
No. Spares like starters are no big deal to carry and store. Not every one does their boating where help is just a phone or radio call plus a CC away.
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Old 08-14-2014, 11:48 AM   #52
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No. Spares like starters are no big deal to carry and store. Not every one does their boating where help is just a phone or radio call plus a CC away.

And from Fast Fred - Install the spare , place the operating unit in a vacuum bag and carry that!
+1 Capt.Bill11 and FF

And . . . IMHO, the "tools and knowledge to replace these parts" is fundamental to operating a 'motor vessel' although some may disagree.
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Old 08-14-2014, 12:01 PM   #53
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I like the spares idea for a ocean voyaging single.. on the Nordhavn I spend a lot of time on she has a very comprehensive list of spares.. but it doesn't include a spare engine computer. During a particularly close and violent electrical storm I started to wonder how the new electronic controlled engines fair in a lightening hit... anybody have any idea?



HOLLYWOOD
Not well in some cases. I was hit twice in a row in the San Blas islands in Panama at on the anchor chain where it went into the water and luckily all I had to do was turn the engines off and the MTU displays resent and there was no damage to the electronic controls. Nor to the rest of the electronics.

On the other hand a friend of mine runs an 86' Lazarra up in Panama City FL and he got hit by lightening a couple of weeks ago and it totally F-d up the engine electronics to the tune of many thousands of dollars. And that is not even counting all the other stuff on board that got fried.
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Old 08-14-2014, 12:07 PM   #54
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speaking of the spares list vs the get home/twin engine...

During a particularly close and violent electrical storm I started to wonder how the new electronic controlled engines fair in a lightening hit... anybody have any idea?
The little peashooter Yanmars in our Great Harbours are, of course, not electronically controlled. However, in June of 2012, I brought our charter in and tied up Spoonbill at Treasure Cay during a horrendous thunderstorm. About an hour after the storm they towed in a big, new Catana catamaran that had been struck by lightning. Fried all of the nav electronics AND the electronics for the engines. Neither engine could be started.
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Old 08-14-2014, 01:48 PM   #55
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Looking at a single screw vessel and doing research on get home.

Kingfish
New Orleans
Get home from where? How big a boat you looking at? Need more data!
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Old 08-14-2014, 02:15 PM   #56
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I like the idea of a spare and think Ted and Sarah have the ideal solution for their single screw 36' Manatee.

Article here: Janice142 article Manatee Moves

Frankly, I'm looking at a way to mount an outboard astern of Seaweed so I won't have to call TowBoatUS ever. I do so admire the genius that figured out how to make a universal joint work for this application. No matter the seas, the boats work together.

Anyway, take a look and see if you could adapt it for your boat. I cannot (swim platform) but an outboard bracket like what the sailboats have that comes off the transom just might be the ticket. I'm semi-actively searching for the bracket. Once I find that then I'll be half-way to a solution to dual power.

Wish me luck!
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Old 08-14-2014, 02:24 PM   #57
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speaking of the spares list vs the get home/twin engine...

I like the spares idea for a ocean voyaging single.. on the Nordhavn I spend a lot of time on she has a very comprehensive list of spares.. but it doesn't include a spare engine computer. During a particularly close and violent electrical storm I started to wonder how the new electronic controlled engines fair in a lightening hit... anybody have any idea?
...
HOLLYWOOD
I talked with some JD representatives and took their engine class at Trawler Fest last may. I specifically asked them about what happens if lightning hit the boat and took out the engine computer. Would I be able to run the engine.

The answer was no.

I suspect this will be true on any engine meeting Tier III maybe Tier II pollution standards. From my reading, and I hope correct understanding of the EPA regulations, marine engines for the boat size we want, will be exempt from Tier IV, or we would have more issues because of DEF.

The other interesting point they had in class was about power. An engine needs air, oil and fuel to run. But the new engines need power. Power is a consumable like fuel. If you do not have power, the engine is not going to run. This is not about starting the engine which usually requires power but the actual running of the newer engines. This is unlike the older engines that would run as long as they had fuel and air. Now, power is needed along with fuel and air.

Later,
Dan
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Old 08-14-2014, 03:26 PM   #58
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I

The other interesting point they had in class was about power. An engine needs air, oil and fuel to run. But the new engines need power. Power is a consumable like fuel. If you do not have power, the engine is not going to run. This is not about starting the engine which usually requires power but the actual running of the newer engines. This is unlike the older engines that would run as long as they had fuel and air. Now, power is needed along with fuel and air.

Later,
Dan
I am thankful for my Lehman 135. Of course Bay Pelican might not exist if it had an electronic engine. Under a prior owner, lightening wiped out everything while the boat was underway. However, the engine continued to run and the boat made it back to port.
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Old 08-14-2014, 04:12 PM   #59
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You can have ninety nine spare parts on your boat and still be missing the part you need to fix a problem. Like the man said, the engine computer. Do you carry a spare engine computer?
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Old 08-14-2014, 04:35 PM   #60
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Capt Bill-I saw your post re the fuel use estimates. Since I know nothing about the tests performed or how they were performed, I can't comment on them. That said, I have seen other comparison tests run and have talked to several engineers over the years and there seems to be pretty much consensus that the 1 vs 2 fuel savings are marginal at best. As was noted, the same energy is needed to produce the same result.

As to the single v twin debate, even though we have twins (JD 6068 TFMs), it is a personal preference of mine. The reliability of continuous-duty rated modern diesels is pretty amazing. I don't think I know anyone who has had a diesel failure caused by internal engine issues. The vast majority of diesel problems are ancillary items. As has been stated here many times, 90% of diesel issues revolve around fuel systems, i.e. fuel itself, filters, pumps. Cooling/water problems probably come next. The vast majority of these types of issues are fairly easily resolved with a bit of knowledge and an adequate supply of spares.

I have never thought about lightning as we don't have much in the PNW. Now you guys have given me a whole new thing to worry about!
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