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Old 08-13-2014, 01:45 PM   #21
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obthomas,
If I was to rig up a get home I'd use a chain drive off to the side of the prop shaft probably electrically powered. Or hydraulic along w an hydraulic anchor winch.

I think one could set up a gasoline air cooled engine stored dry. Test run every 6 months to a year. Stored dry it should start when needed. No water cooling and pull chord start. May need a clutch though but maybe not. It's for the KISS club. Should be better than an outboard on the swim step.
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Old 08-13-2014, 02:01 PM   #22
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Old 08-13-2014, 02:04 PM   #23
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While I'm not quite sure the marine recreational industry is ready yet, i believe that diesel electric setups will eventually be the answer here.

1.) You can generate charge from any number of diesel engines. Singular or in combination. (Main1, Main2, Generator).

2.) You can send that electrical current wherever you want/need it. (Prop 1, Prop 2, Inverter, Batteries)

3.) If one prop/motor fails, you don't lose the redundancy of the engine itself, just because its drive train is hosed.

It seems like a combination that would offer the most redundancy in case of failures. If you wind up with bad fuel, that could still impact all engines, but you only need to get filters changed on one engine before you can run both/all props/thrusters.

Electric motors of this size have been around for a long time, but have come a long way just in recent memory in being ideal for these kinds of systems.

If I could have a single diesel and a moderate size generator, with twin screw driven by independent electric motors, I think that combination would have some real advantages.
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Old 08-13-2014, 02:44 PM   #24
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Ghost-I have addressed this before, I spent several years looking at the precise setup you describe. To the point of spending time with Siemens engineers (they have done this since about 1890!), and having a design and engineering preliminary drawings done. There are advantages/disadvantages to the setup. The most often cited advantage, lower fuel usage, turns out not to be true. Fuel burn rates would only be 2-5% better over a standard twin diesel setup. There are complexity issues in the control system needed to manage the power and its transmission to the electric motors. Siemens has a very good computer controlled system, but it ain't cheap. For a 58', approx. 50 ton FD trawler, the main engine needed to be about 375 HP or about a 30KW generator. This would power two electric motors connected directly to the prop shafts, i.e. no transmission (the electric motors simply reverse). Standard configuration in a trawler this size is usually 2 generators, about a 20KW and a 5-8KW. As a get home, the 20KW would be used. It could power one or both shafts at about 55-60% of max power. Our estimates were that this basic configuration would be about $200-250,000 more than a standard twin engine installation. As an aside, even with a very, very substantial battery bank, travel distance on batteries alone was so negligible a to be immaterial.

We found two major benefits: (1) all diesels, the main and the two gennies, can be placed anywhere in the ER that is convenient, and sealed in soundproof enclosures. The noise reduction is substantial, and (2) the ER, at least in our design, would be about 20-25% smaller than in a standard twin diesel configuration.

Although we decided it cost too much for us to do a custom build in this configuration, I am a bit surprised more such systems are not in the market. I haven't really looked at the few that are so I don't really know what kind of setup they are using.
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Old 08-13-2014, 03:07 PM   #25
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... There are complexity issues in the control system needed to manage the power and its transmission to the electric motors. ....
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Old 08-13-2014, 05:34 PM   #26
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There is a good article in an old PMM.

A 34' Mainship w twin engines and a single shaft (as I recall) was the subject of the project. Diesel electric bus components were used. Worked very well. But probably wasn't very economical to purchase and install. The project was aimed at re-powering.

Must have been some significant downside as I've not heard of it since.
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Old 08-13-2014, 05:41 PM   #27
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Celebrity Millenium is electric propulsed by electric Azipods.

Celebrity Millennium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

GTS Millennium is the flagship of the Millennium-class cruise ships, operated by Celebrity Cruises line. Her sister ships are Constellation, Infinity, and Summit.
She was built at Chantiers de l'Atlantique in St. Nazaire, France. When launched in 2000, Millennium was the world's first ship to use a turbo-electric COGAS power plant. Combined gas and steam (COGAS) is the name given to marine compound powerplants comprising gas and steam turbines, the latter being driven by steam generated using the heat from the exhaust of the gas turbines. In this way, some of the otherwise lost energy can be reclaimed and the specific fuel consumption of the plant can be decreased.
Millennium has a restaurant that contains wooden panels originally used in the RMS Olympic (sister ship to the ill-fated RMS Titanic and RMS Britannic), removed and preserved when that ship was sold for scrap in 1935.
Sources of food include a two level main dining room, called "Metropolitan", and a buffet that serves breakfast, lunch, and dinner on deck 10.
Sources of entertainment include the Celebrity Theatre, in which musical shows, comedians, or big-screen movies can be seen. The theatre is also used for gathering people on excursions, as well as informative talks. Another source is the cinema, located on the third deck. This is used for informative talks as well as daily movies.
Millennium was docked in Athens, Greece, on September 11, 2001, and went into high-security lock-down upon receipt of news regarding the September 11 attacks in the USA.[3] A Celebrity Cruises-sponsored marketing event onboard was in progress but it was curtailed and everyone except passengers and crew were removed from the ship. All other passenger activities except food service were cancelled. The following day, while at sea, a small private plane began to circle the ship, causing panic among several passengers on deck. The plane eventually flew away.[citation needed]
In May 2011, a female passenger in her sixties was declared missing when she failed to disembark at a port call in San Diego. Security cameras on the ship showed that she deliberately jumped off the ship in the waters between Cabo San Lucas and San Diego.[4][5]
After the ship's voyage from Miami to Roatan, Honduras, to Cozumel, Mexico, and back to Miami (April 16–21, 2012), the ship went to dry-dock in the Bahamas for 3-weeks to be renovated.
Depending on the season, the ship visits the following destinations: Alaska from Vancouver and Seward during the summer season, Hawaii and South Pacific Ocean in fall and Southeast Asia from Singapore and Hong Kong during the winter season.
On August 9, 2013, an engine problem occurred aboard the ship, causing a delayed arrival in Seward. After arriving, the Millennium then had to stay in port until August 13, 2013. This caused a drastic change to its following itinerary, originally planned to call at the Alaskan ports of Juneau, Skagway and Ketchikan. That cruise was shortened and the ship then proceed southbound to Vancouver without any ports of call. Passengers sailing on that voyage were provided a big variety of compensations as well as options; either to stay aboard the ship during its repairs at Seward, or to opt for a full refund. During the Sunday while the ship was undergoing repairs, Seward had two ships docked in port in total, the other ship being Holland America Line's Zaandam.
On August 18, 2013, after leaving Ketchikan on its northward voyage, another engine problem occurred forcing the ship to return to Ketchikan that evening. The U.S. Coast Guard required the engine problem to be repaired before the ship could set sail again with passengers. After several days of attempting repairs, the remainder of the voyage was canceled and Celebrity arranged for all passengers to be flown to Seattle, Vancouver or Anchorage. Customers were compensated similarly to those on the previous weeks cruise. The next 5 cruises on the schedule were also canceled as the ship sailed to their Bahamas dry-dock for major repairs to the Rolls-Royce Mermaid propulsion pod.


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Old 08-13-2014, 07:28 PM   #28
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...at boat shows, people would occasionally ask if we would build our Great Harbours with single engines (we actually did build ONE that way.) If they seemed to have even the least bit of a sense of humor, I would tell them, "Yes, but it would be installed off-center in the engine room - oh, and for no-extra charge, we'll include a wing engine just like it on the other side."
You jest, Eric, but don't think that I haven't imagined an N-37 with a port side main (84 HP) with a larger rudder, and leave the 56 HP standard starboard. From what I recall, you can nearly get hull speed out of one 56 HP, yes? I can see you laughing and shaking your head at why people don't leave a good thing be. But you have to admit,....there are no sub-100 hp diesel twin trawlers that I can think of made in the last 20 years around here, unless you include catamarans. Do you have many owners that run on one engine.....switching to the other and back again, etc.. How do the 37's perform on one engine?
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Old 08-13-2014, 08:11 PM   #29
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A stern drive left in salt water is a maintenance nightmare. I suggest you put that thought out of your mind now without wasting any more time on it.

My "Get home power" is my TowBoatUS card. Cheap and effective.
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Old 08-13-2014, 08:51 PM   #30
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Lagoon tried to do electric drive units on some of their sailing catamarans and it was a epic failure.. the idea was to use gensets mounted in the bridge deck to drive electric motors. I believe they have all been converted back to standard diesel propulsion. I think electric drive works well for the big azipod drives on already power hungry cruise ships as more/less generators can be phased on/off as needed.

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Old 08-13-2014, 09:38 PM   #31
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There is a good article in an old PMM.

A 34' Mainship w twin engines and a single shaft (as I recall) was the subject of the project. Diesel electric bus components were used. Worked very well. But probably wasn't very economical to purchase and install. The project was aimed at re-powering.

Must have been some significant downside as I've not heard of it since.
It was the other way around. One engine and two shafts.

Think about it, shafts and gearboxes are cheaper than engines and one engine uses less fuel that two.
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Old 08-13-2014, 09:49 PM   #32
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Bill-your one vs two theory does not pan out in practice. It takes the same energy to move a mass through the water whether that energy cones from one engine or two. A large single does in fact use slightly less fuel then smaller twins, but the difference is really negligible.
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Old 08-13-2014, 10:20 PM   #33
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It was the other way around. One engine and two shafts.

Think about it, shafts and gearboxes are cheaper than engines and one engine uses less fuel that two.
Like the boat across from us a few years back, a Geared Up conversion.
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Old 08-13-2014, 10:38 PM   #34
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Bill-your one vs two theory does not pan out in practice. It takes the same energy to move a mass through the water whether that energy cones from one engine or two. A large single does in fact use slightly less fuel then smaller twins, but the difference is really negligible.

It's not my theory. I'm just reporting what some one actually did. Take it up with them.

http://tinyurl.com/n6sx395

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These are the reported fuel use figures:

"@15mph, 1+1 gives 1.84mpg, 2+2 gives 1.49mpg, 1+2 gives 2.06mpg

@ 21mph, 1+1 gives 1.7mpg, 2+2 gives 1.4mpg, 1+2 gives 1.95mpg

@ 26mph, 1+1 not tested, 2+2 gives 1.17mpg, 1+2 gives 1.79mpg"

1+1 is 1 eng 1 shaft
2+2 is 2 eng 2 shafts
1+2 is 1 eng 2 shafts


From the old web site:

"
With over 25 years of production experience in corrosion resistant gear drive systems for the automotive, off-road, and industrial applications, Geared Up Systems now provides the ultimate drive system for the marine industry, the single engine twinscrew drive.

Let Geared Up Systems assist you in laying out the optimum system for your boats. The drive system offers many benefits including maneuverability, economy, installation ease and design versatility. Without changing your design, you could be offering your customers new options with these advantages:
Maneuverability: Independent port and starboard transmissions allow maneuverability previously found in twin engine boats only. Holding up on a fishing spot, parking or docking (even in a river or tidal current!), and positioning or repositioning a workboat can be accomplished as easily as with a twin screw, without the need for bow thrusters.
Economics: The drive system provides single engine economies, including the savings in fuel, servicing, and layup, plus the savings of the cost of the redundant engine, and the economics of pushing a boat that weighs less and needs to carry less fuel for the same mission capability.
Better Boat: The system allows the engine to be buried deep in the hull of the boat, lowering the center of gravity. A shallower draft provided by twin propellers, spread-out rather than under the keel. Whether your boat needs the engine forward or astern, or if you need an off-center line engine installation, the System makes it possible.
Ease of Installation: In all installations, the engine, engine adapter and primary splitter gearbox mount as a single unit. The final drive gearboxes and/or marine transmission mount in alignment with the propeller shaft. The splitter gearbox and the final drive gearboxes are connected with the constant velocity shafts or universals allowing for engine torque within the mount and misalignment between the primary and final drives. Propeller thrust may be terminated into the final drive component or a thrust plate arrangement that terminates into the boats stringer system."


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Old 08-13-2014, 11:51 PM   #35
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Very good dudes,
Yes you are right Bill. But I could'nt find that one. I did fine another in the June 03 PMM. Page 140 for those that have old PMM. Presented by a company called "Fast/Siemens" system and it's actually diesel electric. Two Cat 3208 engines were replaced w a Cummins B220. If it was available and I had plenty of money I'd be very interested. With this system a genset would be required for the traditional get home.

Singles are often more efficient that singles because they have bigger engines frequently turbocharged. If you made everything equal (or very close) the twin could be more efficient because of the counter rotating props.

To have a fair comparison you'd need all the engines having equal specific fuel consumption per hp hour. Twin keels on the twin ect ect.

But whatever the difference THD says "the difference is really negligible. And I fully agree.

But fuel consumption isn't feared here w all the twin Lehmans in residence. But no one can argue that twin engines is'nt a supreme "get home" setup.
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Old 08-13-2014, 11:54 PM   #36
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Two engines equal twice the maintenance/failure over one, especially when they are all equal horsepower.
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Old 08-14-2014, 04:52 AM   #37
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Don't you guys have Volunteer Marine Rescue or anyone like that, that can tow you back to port?


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Old 08-14-2014, 06:01 AM   #38
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Don't you guys have Volunteer Marine Rescue or anyone like that, that can tow you back to port?


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Within Canada and the United States there are commercial tow operations that will tow you back to port. Annual membership in one of the two large competitors is economical. Outside of this portion or North America, for example Central America and the Caribbean, organized tow assistance varies by the location and in many cases is non-existent.
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Old 08-14-2014, 06:57 AM   #39
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Get Me Home Power

As I look to move from gas modified v boats to a trawler I've settled on the following:

Fiberglass hull, Semi or full displacement, No Teak Decks, Two Staterooms, Stall Shower, near stand up engine room, Queen walk around bed AND twin engines.

Yes I've seen all the pros and cons for sometime, but after following the blogs of liveaboards with one motor and those of twins and the fact that the boat I will be will be nearly 30 years old and I could be anywhere in the Caribbean I will have twins. The pros and cons are all true and each of us need to find our own compromise. I am not going to rely on rescue from the coast guard from some of those island countries and Boat US is only good to Bimini.
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Old 08-14-2014, 07:00 AM   #40
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While I'm not quite sure the marine recreational industry is ready yet, i believe that diesel electric setups will eventually be the answer here.

1.) You can generate charge from any number of diesel engines. Singular or in combination. (Main1, Main2, Generator).

2.) You can send that electrical current wherever you want/need it. (Prop 1, Prop 2, Inverter, Batteries)

3.) If one prop/motor fails, you don't lose the redundancy of the engine itself, just because its drive train is hosed.

It seems like a combination that would offer the most redundancy in case of failures. If you wind up with bad fuel, that could still impact all engines, but you only need to get filters changed on one engine before you can run both/all props/thrusters.

Electric motors of this size have been around for a long time, but have come a long way just in recent memory in being ideal for these kinds of systems.

If I could have a single diesel and a moderate size generator, with twin screw driven by independent electric motors, I think that combination would have some real advantages.
One of the big downsides to Diesel electric is moisture. The plant needs heat at all time . If you aren't running the engine or gen set , then you need shore power for heat.....lots of heat to resist corrosion.
One of my ex-employers found this out the hard way. Electric bill for shore power for this DE was 4-6 thousand dollars monthly. On its own meter.
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