Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 11-06-2013, 10:12 PM   #21
Guru
 
Bob Cofer's Avatar
 
City: Bellingham
Country: US
Vessel Name: Ebbtide
Vessel Model: '72 Grand Banks
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,029
That's the one. Can't seem to find my info on it though.
__________________
Advertisement

Bob Cofer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2013, 10:31 PM   #22
Veteran Member
 
Rekindle's Avatar
 
City: Whidbey Island
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Rekindle
Vessel Model: Krogen 42-145
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 41
The boat is in LaConner. The "get home" set up is the only one I've seen utilizing that system. Here is a link to her site:

Domino | Willard Boats
__________________

Rekindle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2013, 07:14 AM   #23
Guru
 
ranger42c's Avatar
 
City: Maryland
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 42' Sportfish
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,159
Quote:
Originally Posted by healhustler View Post
MurrayM could have the reasonable available solution with the Propane unit on a bracket. Hopcar carries Lehr outboards, and my plan was to trade-out my 9.9 Merc for one anyway. None of these solutions are easy, but a simple outboard bracketed straight could give you the knots necessary for the rudder to be effective. Once within docking range, it could help maneuver the boat even in reverse right from the stern while 1st mate handles to bow thruster. In weather, it may be strong enough to keep the boat bow into the waves or current while working on the main.


How much propane might it take to "get home" from somewhere out of tow boat reach?

-Chris
__________________
South River, Chesapeake Bay
ranger42c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2013, 10:42 AM   #24
Guru
 
Codger2's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Country: US
Vessel Name: "Sandpiper"
Vessel Model: 2006 42' Ocean Alexander Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,420
Quote:
Originally Posted by healhustler View Post
MurrayM could have the "reasonable available solution" with the Propane unit on a bracket. Hopcar carries Lehr outboards, and my plan was to trade-out my 9.9 Merc for one anyway.
What he said...

32' Fishing boat in Alaska. The OB is used for slow trolling for Salmon.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Honda.jpg
Views:	79
Size:	111.8 KB
ID:	24434  
__________________
Codger2

My passion for improving my boat(s) exceeds my desire to constantly cruise them.
Codger2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2013, 07:12 PM   #25
Guru
 
MurrayM's Avatar
 
City: Kitimat, North Coast BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Badger
Vessel Model: 30' Sundowner Tug
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,322
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger42c View Post
How much propane might it take to "get home" from somewhere out of tow boat reach?
Word is that a 20 lb tank will last 5 hours wide open, and 14 hours at "cruising speed", which I'm assuming would be around 3 knots or so.
__________________
"The most interesting path between two points is not a straight line" Murray Minchin
MurrayM is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2013, 08:49 PM   #26
Guru
 
healhustler's Avatar
 
City: Longboat Key, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bucky
Vessel Model: Krogen Manatee 36 North Sea
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,181
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger42c View Post
How much propane might it take to "get home" from somewhere out of tow boat reach?

-Chris
That's a very good question, and the answer is "I don't know". My boat is a rather windy 36 ft. at around 24000 lbs.. I'd need a 9.9 or more to get anywhere with the outboard power, and the farthest I'd be from a tow would either be in the middle of lake Huron, Michigan, or in the Gulf Stream on the way to or from the Bahamas. Aboard in a normal situation, I'd probably have two 20 pounders and two 10 pounders in various stages of use. I'd likely fill them before a long transit or crossing. It would probably come down to something like how long I could run the engine at 80 percent. Maybe Hopcar has a spec' sheet on the 9.9 and 15 Lehrs. My boat is really easy to push below 6 knots. I'm guessing a 9.9 would give me 2-3 knots, and as soon as I can, I'll test my Merc. 9.9 on a bracket to verify that. Even so, there could be wind and current to nullify that forward progress. It would take 20 - 25 HP to be a substantial get-home system.
__________________
Larry

"I'd rather be happy than dignified".
healhustler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2013, 10:47 AM   #27
Guru
 
Phil Fill's Avatar
 
City: Everett Wa
Country: US
Vessel Name: Eagle
Vessel Model: Roughwater 58 pilot house
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,919
Quote:
Originally Posted by healhustler View Post
That's a very good question, and the answer is "I don't know". My boat is a rather windy 36 ft. at around 24000 lbs.. I'd need a 9.9 or more to get anywhere with the outboard power, and the farthest I'd be from a tow would either be in the middle of lake Huron, Michigan, or in the Gulf Stream on the way to or from the Bahamas. Aboard in a normal situation, I'd probably have two 20 pounders and two 10 pounders in various stages of use. I'd likely fill them before a long transit or crossing. It would probably come down to something like how long I could run the engine at 80 percent. Maybe Hopcar has a spec' sheet on the 9.9 and 15 Lehrs. My boat is really easy to push below 6 knots. I'm guessing a 9.9 would give me 2-3 knots, and as soon as I can, I'll test my Merc. 9.9 on a bracket to verify that. Even so, there could be wind and current to nullify that forward progress. It would take 20 - 25 HP to be a substantial get-home system.
The neatest set up I have see was post by you of a sister Krogan modified the stern deck so the dinky could be towed and/or push to be used as a get home. I remember it as I been thinking of towing our 19 ft run about with a 140 hp OP, which is more than capable of pushing/towing the Eagle if need by.
Phil Fill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2017, 10:19 PM   #28
Veteran Member
 
Transaxial's Avatar
 
City: Tofield
Country: Canada
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 28
Hydraulic "get home" drive

I am in the middle of building my own generator/hydraulic powered main shaft drive system. My boat is a 40 Palmer full displacement trawler powered by a 6.5 liter Mitsubishi 6D14 putting out about 120 HP. The transmission is a Borg Warner Velvet Drive 72 that can free wheel. The shaft is 2"SS with a 24" prop which is very well protected by the deep steel keel. The main is an older motor, 4000 hrs since a major rebuild. Seems to be solid and I have talked to several boaters that claim these engines will run 20,000 hrs in fishing boats. But it is old. The boat does not have a gen set but has a compartment that will accept one, which is what got me thinking that if I add a generator, why not make it dual purpose to be able to run the main prop shaft. The boat only needed a 4-5 kw genset but as I got looking at specing out an engine, there is not much difference in size or cost to go to a 12 kw industrial generator to get up into 16 hp. The next leap was skip the AC generator and mount the Sundstrand 20 closed loop piston pump that I already had directly to the flywheel and bell housing and just belt drive the alternator of choice to keep the battery banks going. Another idea was to buy the Mitsubishi S4L2 diesel 4 cylinder with a variable governor, now that it is not primarily producing AC, which allows the same engine to produce up to 39 HP intermittently at 3000 rpm. This engine will produce 30 HP all day long at 22-2500 rpm and now is a serious driver for this boat and makes an awesome trolling motor. I got a hydraulics shop that would work with me and we did all the calculations involving cu. in./rev, output rpm, flows and psi and came up with using a Sundstrand style 23 series motor to complete the closed loop system. I have a 15 gallon reservoir and a big tube type oil cooler to plumb in and I should be ready to install it. The control of the drive motor is very simple and just involves a cable control to a lever on the pump that allows forward - neutral - reverse infinitely controlled in either direction. This is a high quality commercial system capable of 6,000 psi and 4,000 rpm so at the 2,000 psi settings and 2400 rpm that it will be operating at, it should have very long life. At this point I am planning on just sprockets and #60H roller chain to connect the motor to the flange coupler on the main prop shaft. I know there are fancier ways of doing it but that can come later if it works well. It will be pretty nice to just do a 5 minute chain master link connection and be under way again if needed.

Has any one any experience with doing something like this? Am I on the right track with what I have laid out as a plan here? Thanks for any input in advance.
Transaxial is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2017, 10:48 PM   #29
Senior Member
 
Acheron2010's Avatar
 
City: New Tazewell
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Saoirse
Vessel Model: 1983 Nauticat 44 Ketch
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 152
I remember Steve Dashew designed a backup diesel and separate shaft/prop for his FBP Windhorse. Article here and here.
Acheron2010 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2017, 10:57 PM   #30
Guru
 
BruceK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transaxial View Post
I am in the middle of building my own generator/hydraulic powered main shaft drive system....
You gain redundancy for the engine but not if the drive system,ie shaft/prop/stuffing box or seal etc is the problem,a second shaft system would do that. But, a gain is a gain, hope it goes well.
__________________
BruceK
Island Gypsy 36 Europa "Doriana"
Sydney Australia
BruceK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2017, 12:09 AM   #31
Senior Member
 
klee wyck's Avatar
 
City: Seattle and Bellingham
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Klee Wyck and Libra
Vessel Model: Lowland 48 and Noordzee Kotter 52
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 251
Trans,
I have got a hydraulic get home as you describe on Klee Wyck. As it came with the boat as OEM, I did not build it so have only a rudimentary working knowledge of it.
The pump itself is coupled to the non electrical end of a 15 kW Westerbeke genny so expect the motor is around thirty HP. Reservoir looks to be around 20 gallons with valves that are normally open to run a big thruster but can be switched to run the orbit motor that powers the get home function. The motor spins a cogged belt coupled to the main shaft.
This setup will give me about 2.5-3 knots in flat seas with moderate steerage all of which disappears rapidly as any weather becomes part of the picture. The boat weighs around 55K.
I will try to get a look at ID on the hydraulic pump and motor next time I am on her and try to remember to report back.
I have been thinking about this lately a bit as the generator is showing its age and a refit is probably in the cards. If it were only for the get home, I am not sure I would re-do the hydraulics in a generator refit, but, I do love the big thruster so the hydraulics are a must should that re-fit day come.
__________________
Bill
klee wyck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2017, 04:43 PM   #32
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Gloucester, MA
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,191
Funny you bring this up. I was just discussing something along these lines with a friend. The idea was that in place of a generator and wing engine, use an oversized generator with PTO hydraulics to drive an sux prop shaft. There are a few considerations, at least one of which has already been brought up.

Wing engines have the advantage of a separate prop and shaft, so work if you have a damaged main shaft or prop. If your aux power drives the main shaft, you lose that extra measure of redundancy. It's a tradeoff you will have to make.

A wing engine is typically a lot higher power than a generator. A wing moves a boat slowly, and if you further reduce the power it will move even slower. I'd suggest using one of the prop calculators to figure out how fast the boat will move with whatever power source you finally pick.

Consider putting a clutched PTO on a generator to get your hydraulics. You will be able to pull full power from the engine, but still have a fully functional generator.

There is a conflict in engine use between operation as a generator and use to power hydraulics. For a generator, the engine needs to run at a constant 1800 RPM assuming 60hz power. For hydraulics, you will get Mac power out of the engine at Mac RPM. If you run as a generator with PTO hydraulics, you will get less than full possible power, but will have a good generator. If you run the engine for hydraulics at full speed, you will either need to throttle back to generator electricity? Or do an AC to DC to inverter to AC setup which gets pretty Rube Goldberg. This is yet another tradeoff you will have to make.

The good news is that hydraulic aux drives are well proven. The only complaint I have really heard it that they often end up under powered and slow.
__________________
www.MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2017, 05:24 PM   #33
Senior Member
 
Sealife's Avatar
 
City: In transit
Country: From USA
Vessel Name: Sea life
Vessel Model: Krogen 42 #61
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 378
I refer you to this thread I started:

wing engine/generator combo

Why have 3 diesels instead of two? Nothing ever came of it, I wound up installing a NL gen and leaving the main alone. Still wish I had a wing installed w/ separate shaft attached to a gen head.

Just some food for thought
__________________
Scott

www.caribbeansealife.com
Sealife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2017, 09:30 PM   #34
Senior Member
 
klee wyck's Avatar
 
City: Seattle and Bellingham
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Klee Wyck and Libra
Vessel Model: Lowland 48 and Noordzee Kotter 52
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedtree View Post
Funny you bring this up. I was just discussing something along these lines with a friend. The idea was that in place of a generator and wing engine, use an oversized generator with PTO hydraulics to drive an sux prop shaft. There are a few considerations, at least one of which has already been brought up.

There is a conflict in engine use between operation as a generator and use to power hydraulics. For a generator, the engine needs to run at a constant 1800 RPM assuming 60hz power. For hydraulics, you will get Mac power out of the engine at Mac RPM. If you run as a generator with PTO hydraulics, you will get less than full possible power, but will have a good generator. If you run the engine for hydraulics at full speed, you will either need to throttle back to generator electricity? Or do an AC to DC to inverter to AC setup which gets pretty Rube Goldberg. This is yet another tradeoff you will have to make.

The good news is that hydraulic aux drives are well proven. The only complaint I have really heard it that they often end up under powered and slow.
I was thinking about my post to this thread last night and then again today based on Twisted's post.
If you want a little extra power on the get home hydraulics and there is this conflict with the 1800 RPM genny thing, I got to thinking about how bad do most boats really need a generator if they have a big house bank and a big inverter. It would sure make my life easier in a refit if I just thought about a good marine motor to run the hydraulics and stuck a high output heavy duty alternator on it. With a 1200 AH house bank and a 3000 watt inverter, wouldn't the alternator suffice as a source of house bank recharge. Doesn't a coupl of hours of run time on a big alternator give you a days worth of power? I am not in AC country and my heat is diesel so I do not think I have loads on my boat that the inverter cannot handle.
I would like the idea of repowering the hydraulics and skipping the electrical end of that motor. Better get home power, easier to slide in over my main, and no rpm conflict.

Comments on this please?
__________________
Bill
klee wyck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2017, 10:01 PM   #35
Senior Member
 
johnma's Avatar
 
City: Philadelphia
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Dreamers Holiday
Vessel Model: Mainship 390
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 322
If you use the sundstrand 23 pump with the 23 motor you are going to have 1:1 speed on your prop shaft. If your turning your pump at 2000 rpms and stroke it wide open your motor is turning 2000 rpm's. I would think your sprockets are going to be overly large to get your reduction to the prop shaft.
John
johnma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2017, 10:02 PM   #36
Senior Member
 
johnma's Avatar
 
City: Philadelphia
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Dreamers Holiday
Vessel Model: Mainship 390
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 322
If you use the sundstrand 23 pump with the 23 motor you are going to have 1:1 speed on your prop shaft. If your turning your pump at 2000 rpms and stroke it wide open your motor is turning 2000 rpm's. I would think your sprockets are going to be overly large to get your reduction to the prop shaft.
John
johnma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2017, 11:16 PM   #37
Veteran Member
 
Transaxial's Avatar
 
City: Tofield
Country: Canada
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by klee wyck View Post
I was thinking about my post to this thread last night and then again today based on Twisted's post.
If you want a little extra power on the get home hydraulics and there is this conflict with the 1800 RPM genny thing, I got to thinking about how bad do most boats really need a generator if they have a big house bank and a big inverter. It would sure make my life easier in a refit if I just thought about a good marine motor to run the hydraulics and stuck a high output heavy duty alternator on it. With a 1200 AH house bank and a 3000 watt inverter, wouldn't the alternator suffice as a source of house bank recharge. Doesn't a coupl of hours of run time on a big alternator give you a days worth of power? I am not in AC country and my heat is diesel so I do not think I have loads on my boat that the inverter cannot handle.
I would like the idea of repowering the hydraulics and skipping the electrical end of that motor. Better get home power, easier to slide in over my main, and no rpm conflict.

Thanks to all the replies from some of you more experienced boaters. I know my way around all this stuff on dry land, but boats are different!! Thanks! Your second post KW is exactly what my research has come up with. The single prop/shaft is a drawback but the full keel and struts really protect the prop so I would say my risk there is not zero but reduced significantly. If you read the specs on these little diesels you see that at 1800 rpm they only produce about 2/3 of the power that they are capable of at mid 2000s and in a bind you can crank these things up to 3-3500 rpm for short periods and double the hp of the 1800 rating. Not that you should run over 3000 in all but an emergency, but it is there. Without the necessity of running at a constant 1800 rpm,(engine not tied to a a/c gen but using a 160 - 200 amp truck alt would be 2.5 kw) you can order a variable speed governor that just like a tractor, will run at whatever rpm you set it at and the dc generator continues to put out 14 volts. I think I have read that the wing engine hp on some of the bigger boats, like a Nordhaven 47, is mid 30s. That is probably continuous hp?? So on my boat at 1/2 the weight I am thinking 30 continuous hp should do a decent job of moving it. Britannia posted a nice fuel consumption chart for his KK 54 weighing 80,000 pounds, #89 in the thread "New to me 50, steel full disp" on TF. This is consistent with several other sources of fuel consumption in bigger boats. Basically at under 2 gal/hr they are only using 32-35 hp, based on the formula that one gal makes 16-18 hp. Is this math correct? So if my boat can cruise at 7 kts and burn under 2 gal/hr with engine rpm of 1500 running through a 2.91:1 BW transmission, the prop is turning a little over 500 rpm. So we sized the 20 series pump to run the 23 motor at a top speed of about 1000 rpm and is infinitely variable to any speed down to zero, including reverse. We are reducing motor speed by 2:1 with sprockets onto the prop shaft. I am hoping to be able to cruise at 5-6 kts on get home power. I appreciate anyone questioning my figures because I want to get it right the first time!! I agree on the a/c power demand question. My boat does not have or need a/c and other loads are small, easily handled by a battery bank with a 2500 watt inverter. With the ability to run the dc generator for an hour or two, maybe while trolling for salmon, everything should be well provided for.

Thanks for all the input, it is much appreciated.

Comments on this please?
Comments on this please?[/QUOTE]
Transaxial is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2017, 11:43 PM   #38
Veteran Member
 
Transaxial's Avatar
 
City: Tofield
Country: Canada
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnma View Post
If you use the sundstrand 23 pump with the 23 motor you are going to have 1:1 speed on your prop shaft. If your turning your pump at 2000 rpms and stroke it wide open your motor is turning 2000 rpm's. I would think your sprockets are going to be overly large to get your reduction to the prop shaft.
John
Sounds like you know these pumps pretty well! I had a 20 series pump that we are checking over and reversing direction on to direct couple to the motor flywheel. That should be CW , same as the diesel. Am I right? I am using a 23 series motor to increase torque and stay in the 1000 rpm motor range, and then 2:1 chain and sprocket reduction to the prop shaft for about 500 rpm. This pump/motor combo is way over rated for this application but it should give a long life and be pretty well bullet proof. I am using a common 15 gal reservoir with a clutch pump for the thruster and future additions. Is a 10 micron filter on a standard hydraulic filter base with 1 1/4 fittings good enough? What do you think about cooling. I have a 6" dia x 24" tube cooler that I plan on installing on the return flow line. This cooler only has a rating of 7,500 btu so seems really undersized, like only 10% of what may be needed. No specs on temp differential provided. Not much return on this closed loop system though. Will it cool enough by running the engine antifreeze directly from the keel cooler to the heat exchanger before going to cool the little diesel? Or should I run sea water somehow with a separate pump? Don't really want to run that salty crap through my cooler.

Thanks for your help.
Transaxial is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 01:40 AM   #39
Wannabe
 
Britannia's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Stillwater
Vessel Model: Kadey-Krogen 54
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 766
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transaxial View Post
Comments on this please?
To be clear - for my KK54 to be burning 2 gph I have to be doing about 1250 rpm with a speed of about 6 kt. If I'm doing 1500 rpm and 7kt my fuel consumption is around 2.8 gph.

Your gph to HP conversion lines up with what I have read.

The zone I am looking at with my 20kW genset would be about 1.2 gph - which I get with 1000rpm on my main and make 4.8 kt. This translates to about 20HP. That would be great for a get home - but doesn't seem to line up with people's experience in real life. I'm concerned that in practice I won't get these results.

Richard
Britannia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 08:15 AM   #40
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,525
To steer straight on a wing engine the shaft is angled a few degrees.

The old Hyde feathering props have the blacd area and diameter to function well.
__________________

FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012